Prior History

[BetterThanLife]

In most D20 games when you multiclass you don't get the 1st level x4 skills. In T20 it doesn't say that but does specify with some classes that you don't get them but others, notably the service classes it doesn't say that you don't get them if you multiclass into them. Is that intentional?

 

[Morte]

You only get x4 at character level 1. You never get it on taking the initial level of an additional class.

The inconsistency you mention is (at least sometimes) fixed up in the errata.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Actually in the Errata that line is addressed in Scout and Army classes and doesn't add the only for first level bit. Which is why I asked if it was intentional. After all T20 doesn't follow all the "it is always" rules for D20. (Gunnery skill being the obvious one.)

I have been into Traveller quite a bit longer than I have been involved in any D20 game. (Matter of fact the only reason I have any D20 material is because of T20.) In Traveller the Service "Classes" always had more skills than going another route. Matter of fact substantially more skills than other routes. Using the rules, as written, with the service classes getting the extra skills when multiclassing into them would keep that flavor alive. Though the idea of multiclassing in Prior History is a new concept and you could, theoretically start in the Army, join the Marines then go Navy before mustering out. But that is extreme not normal playing.

Originally posted by Morte:
You only get x4 at character level 1. You never get it on taking the initial level of an additional class.

The inconsistency you mention is (at least sometimes) fixed up in the errata.

 

[clementk]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
Actually in the Errata that line is addressed in Scout and Army classes and doesn't add the only for first level bit.

The Errata (Errata-6 file June 4, 2003 dating) clarifies the *Starting* Skill points for Army, Marine, Navy, and Scout service classes. Yes the Errata should also have the multiclass clarifier. On page 35 of the THB under Class Skills "The number of skill points the character starts with at 1st level" which means 1st Character level. The same as in the d20 SRDs.

I have been into Traveller quite a bit longer than I have been involved in any D20 game. <snip> In Traveller the Service "Classes" always had more skills than going another route. Matter of fact substantially more skills than other routes. <snip>

Hey so have I since d20's less then 4 years old. ^_^

T20 has more options than CT Book 1 for character archetypes* and I for one would not mimic CT Book 1 to such an extent. ((16 to 24 + Int mod) x 4) as opposed to just (4 to 6 + Int mod) is *way* too much difference for me especially considering this is in addition to whatever x 4 skill points from the 1st character level. If you want to play it this way cool. I for one am not keen on having Baka Rockheads knowing significantly more skills than Academic or Professional types. ^_^ (and note Merchant is *not* considered a Service Class in T20 while in CT it is)

Treating Gunnery as an actual skill instead of just a weapon proficiency is minor in comparison both for game balance and d20 practice. There are other d20 games with weapon skills and there is some difference between firing an artillery piece as opposed to a pistol. I would've scrapped BAB altogether and built up a full range of weapon skills but that's an OGL game and another topic altogether.

Casey

*as in more than just a generic "Other" + 5 Service types including Merchant

 

[BetterThanLife]

I know Merchants were considered service classes but I never did find Book 7 while I was playing Classic Traveller. So they never had the skills fromthe advanced character generation. (Well at least until I got MT. And I never played that much, the ship design was a pian, the combat system got to the point where it was nonlethal...

So in CT when you wanted skills it was Book 4, Book 5 or Book 6.

Or Army, Marine, Navy, Scout. One note on T20, there is no military intelligence/SOF troops. The Marine Sniper isn't there, You can't get move silently, or hide as class skills in any of the military service classes. YOu are missing the interpersonal skills required for Intelligence work. The Scout Service isn't an Intelligence arm of the Imperium and Naval Intelligence doesn't exist either. I definitely miss the Military Academies and I believe that cutting them out of the system is a bad idea. Virtually all of the Science Fiction Story lines has a service Academy. Saganami Island, Star Fleet Academy, etc. Star Wars being the exception but as it was seen from the side of the rebellion I can see why it was left off.

In all seriousness though if you weren't meant to get the extra skill points on multiclassing into military service then why explicitly state no on all the classes besides the Military service classes? (Including the Scouts.) If it wasn't mentioned at all the D20 would obviously apply and none of them would get the extra. If it is mentioned in some it should be mentioned in all and especially since the ones it was left off from were the ones that have traditionally gotten more skills.

 

[clementk]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
I know Merchants were considered service classes but I never did find Book 7 while I was playing Classic Traveller. So they never had the skills fromthe advanced character generation.

Just because you never used Book 7 / MT Adv. Chargen for Merchants doesn't mean it didn't exist. It's your game do what you will.

One note on T20, there is no military intelligence/SOF troops. The Marine Sniper isn't there, You can't get move silently, or hide as class skills in any of the military service classes.

Unlearn the idea that Service Prior History Class = all corresponding levels for that 4 year term must be taken in the Character Class of the same name. For the Sniper take some levels in Merc for Intelligence types Professional, Rogue, or even Traveller perhaps depending on the type of Intelligence work. Take a hobby feat or just pay some points for a cross-class skill if the character is just trained in but not a practicing agent / sniper / etc. . From what I've seen T20 resembles MT basic chargen more than advanced chargen. Perhaps at some stage QLI will come out with an advanced chargen TA *or* some fan will write up such a system. There is at the least the OTC in the University part of chargen.

In all seriousness though if you weren't meant to get the extra skill points on multiclassing into military service then why explicitly state no on all the classes besides the Military service classes? (Including the Scouts.) If it wasn't mentioned at all the D20 would obviously apply and none of them would get the extra. If it is mentioned in some it should be mentioned in all and especially since the ones it was left off from were the ones that have traditionally gotten more skills.

Again you're leaving out Merchant. Because QLI frelled up (see 1st thread linked below) and the errata could use another errata update so people won't come up with ideas like this? ^_^ Again...even the errata states "Starting Skill Points" which are defined elsewhere in the T20 THB (p.35) as "The number of skill points the character starts with at 1st level." which is the same wording as in the 3.0 d20 SRD. Not the 1st level in the class, 1st level.

See this thread and this thread for clarification from a more official source than me. Part of the confusion may be also due to the T20 THB not being able to print the rules for multi-classing etc. in the book due to it being a d20 system book. Again if you want Service types to have more skill points in your T20 game...go ahead.

HTH
Casey

 

[BetterThanLife]

Casey
I do appreciate your response. I just think it is a weird oversight. Until I got back into Traveller I didn't know book 7 or 8 were ever published. Never saw them in a game store. I know Merchants were a service class and as a matter of fact I did use the Merchant advanced chargen that was published in Dragon Magazine way back when.

Having served in the Army I have trouble thinking of Merchants as a service.

Not saying I am right in this just that I have a problem including them.

As for multiclassing within a term, now that is prohibited in the rules. YOu have to muster out of one class before you can multiclass into another. And you can't go back to an earlier class during Prior History. But i can see how that would work.

Here is another silly thought on Multi-Classing during Prior History. What if you get a Scout Ship (as a Scout) and another ship in another class? Particularly if you get the Scout ship first. Or Muster out of one class roll a ship then serve 20 more years in another class, is the ship 50% paid off and 20 years old? I know it says that if you roll a ship (with payments) then roll a ship again the first ship is 10 years old and 25% paid for. It would bite to roll a Seeker then later roll a Mercenary Cruiser and have to use the Mercenary Cruiser to help pay off the Seeker.

 

[clementk]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
I do appreciate your response.

And I am enjoying your posts in this thread. ^_^

As for multiclassing within a term, now that is prohibited in the rules. YOu have to muster out of one class before you can multiclass into another. And you can't go back to an earlier class during Prior History. But i can see how that would work.

Please cite where multiclassing within a term is prohibited in the THB. There are limitations that levels in certain classes can only be taken while serving within certain terms in prior history (and the first term / active duty stuff) but nothing limiting multiclassing within a term of prior history completely (p.34). For that matter you don't have to take a level in the class of the same name as the term of prior history you are in at the same time in any case.* [EDIT] also see the end of this post

Here is another silly thought on Multi-Classing during Prior History. What if you get a Scout Ship (as a Scout) and another ship in another class? Particularly if you get the Scout ship first. Or Muster out of one class roll a ship then serve 20 more years in another class, is the ship 50% paid off and 20 years old? I know it says that if you roll a ship (with payments) then roll a ship again the first ship is 10 years old and 25% paid for. It would bite to roll a Seeker then later roll a Mercenary Cruiser and have to use the Mercenary Cruiser to help pay off the Seeker.

Sell one of the ships if possible? OTOH now you have two ships...perhaps more profit can be made now! (it'd better be with more bills to pay) ^_^ Prior History in general is one ball of random "fun" regardless of the system. The main reason I still enjoy lifepath subsystems and random aspects of chargen in some games is for the spark the wacky results give me for fleshing out the character.

Casey

* while I don't think it is absolutely neccessary I do understand and think there is some merit in the argument some people have put forward for using different names for the priory history "clases". Especially after participating in several threads like this one.

[EDIT]: Okay I see/remeber the limitation on additional levels in a Service once mustered out during Prior History. But that is still not limiting multiclassing within a term. /me shrugs

 

[clementk]

Note: split off from the previous post to shorten said post and due to this being a side issue-

Also I just read over the rather silly Employment/Profession rules on p. 120 and 124. I've always thought of Prior History first then taking levels based on the XP generated from Prior History (based partially on step 9 of the prior history process). I see no need to restrict a player's choice of Profession in the next term just because they didn't take a level in the class of the same name as that Profession in the current term if that current term is in a different Profession. (which also IMO means they'd *have* to take a level in a different named class than their current terms Profession if they don't already have a level in that class) Oy! Was that confusing enough?

Casey

 

[GypsyComet]

Originally posted by Casey:
Oy! Was that confusing enough?

Casey

Nope. Try again.

Note that unless you started with one of the Service classes at 1st lvl (odd but doable), you will *always* have at least one career path open, barring re-enlistment issues.
The reason for the "can enter any career you have a level of in the matching class" is to keep the careers from having entry requirements. Those are attached to the classes instead, due to the process you've described being the "right" way to build a character (ie. do the Term in a Career/Service, then spend the EXP; rinse, repeat)

There are caveats and outs scattered through the text. The procedure used for the Service classes (ie, normally gotta enter the service *before* you take levels in it) can be applied to a career if you need to for background sake, in such a case, the careers available to you are not based on the classes you *have*, but rather the classes you *qualify for*. It's a subtle difference that can make Prior Service a much smoother operation that is much easier on whatever hair you may have left...

 

[GypsyComet]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
Having served in the Army I have trouble thinking of Merchants as a service.

Not saying I am right in this just that I have a problem including them.

The concept of Merchant as a Service descends from the inventor of the Free Trader, Andre Norton. While it was largely subsumed into infered events prior to the first book, she definitely had either an Academy or considerable test battery, which led to competition for postings to either one of the big lines or to the myriad of little independent operators.

Between Andre Norton and Poul Anderson, the lineage of the Traveller Free Trader is quite clear...

As for multiclassing within a term, now that is prohibited in the rules. YOu have to muster out of one class before you can multiclass into another.

No, no. More than one *career* per term is not allowed, but *classes* may be freely mixed within a term provided you qualify for the classes themselves.

You do normally handle Muster Out when changing careers, yes.

And you can't go back to an earlier class during Prior History. But i can see how that would work.

The Re-enlistment/Continuation section (page 126) doesn't go quite that far, though there is really no point in returning to the same career at a later date except for background story, since (with the exception of the Services) the character *can* continue to take levels in the related class.

Are you getting this from somewhere else?

Here is another silly thought on Multi-Classing during Prior History. What if you get a Scout Ship (as a Scout) and another ship in another class? Particularly if you get the Scout ship first. Or Muster out of one class roll a ship then serve 20 more years in another class, is the ship 50% paid off and 20 years old? I know it says that if you roll a ship (with payments) then roll a ship again the first ship is 10 years old and 25% paid for. It would bite to roll a Seeker then later roll a Mercenary Cruiser and have to use the Mercenary Cruiser to help pay off the Seeker.

If your Ref is amenable, use them the other way round. It comes down to which ship (if any) the Ref wants the group to have.

A Scout ship is not the property of the PC rolling it, so it would stay a seperate award. Note that keeping it after a second ship comes up is just *asking* for trouble, since Scout ships don't come with a monetary obligation, they come with a *service* obligation.

 

[clementk]

Originally posted by GypsyComet:
Nope. Try again.

Good. I hoped I was reading that wrong or applying it out of context with other info in the book. In practice I go with apply Term / qualify for class as you describe at the end of your post.

<snip good explanation>
It's a subtle difference that can make Prior Service a much smoother operation that is much easier on whatever hair you may have left...

Thanks for the clarification.

Casey