Prize Money?

[gchuck]

Curious how many of you guys award 'prize' money for ships/equipment captured/destroyed during your adventures.

Mainly concerning freelance crews that take out a pirate ship, or actually capture a similar type of ship.

If you engage in that sort of rewards for your players, how much do you award?

I went with 5% of the ships new value.

Comments, concerns, catcalls?

 

[jcrocker]

That sounds about right - my group didn't grab ships that often. I started with a base percentage from the new value, minus wear and minus damage and fees etc, so they ended up with a decent amount to work with. Once the reward was divided amongst all participants they still felt rewarded, but they weren't going to retire on Capital with it.

 

[Enoki]

I really haven't thought about it, but if I was doing a scenario that it could come up, I'd do it more or less the way the Admiralty would have. The prize ship or equipment would be examined by government officials upon delivery and these officials would determine the value of the prize items in terms of their usefulness to the empire / Imperial Navy (or whoever).
They would then issue you a low ball figure for the prize (like insurance companies do) with a long litany of complaints they have (justified or not) about the prize. It would then be incumbent on the players to either hire expertise or have it themselves (such skills as naval architect, engineering, broker, liaison, etc.) to make a counter offer within the system.
If the ship were of little or no value to the Imperial Navy (or whoever), then they'd be told "There's no prize money to be offered. Do what you will with the ship." They would then be issued 'papers' giving them official title to the prize and they can do whatever with it at that point.

This would be the equivalent of saying "No" to the players and making them work for success rather than simply handing it to them. So, a privateer group that captured say a small merchant ship would find the Imperium's official prize system won't give any money for it and simply gives you title "as is" instead.

 

[McPerth]

From an old thread (and I guess the whole thread will be of interest in this issue, though is mostly for Naval ships, not free-lancers or privateers):

The articles from Challenge 38 named Boarding Party and Prize Court are (IMHO) a must Reading for this discussion (at least its application to Traveller), should anyone of you not have read them.

 

[whartung]

I went with 5% of the ships new value.

Comments, concerns, catcalls?

5% is a stupid amount of money and can easily wreck many campaigns.

Better to keep the players hungry.

 

[RandyB]

5% is a stupid amount of money and can easily wreck many campaigns.

Better to keep the players hungry.

Because without money challenges, there are no challenges at all?

 

[Condottiere]

With private mercenary companies, contracts have to clearly state salvage rights, ransoms, and destruction or capture of enemy equipment rewards and conditions.

State employed paramilitary forces might need monetary motivation.

If inflation threatens, there's always corporate and income taxes, as well as repair costs and operating expenses.

 

[Enoki]

If I really wanted to keep the profit down on their prize acquisition, I'd have the government / prize court / Navy turn down buying the ship for lack of need, condition, etc.
If they try to sell it to some company, the company low balls the figure such that they're not making much money on it after their costs of capturing it and returning it to wherever to get paid. If they go with that, fine. They get a much smaller amount than they thought and will now have to re-think their options for the future. If they don't fine too.
The other option for a "quick and sure" sale I'd offer is they put it up for auction with a company that deals in such stuff. Now, digressing for a moment, I've been to a number of equipment sales (construction machinery, shop machinery, etc.) and they all run pretty much the same:

No reserve. That is the highest bid buys the lot. If it isn't high enough for your liking, too bad.
Low minimum. Bidding opens at some initial value and goes up.
Seller pays auction. You get charged 5 to 10% of the selling price by the auction. If the players bid they get hit with an additional 5 to 10% as the buyer if they win...

Now, in this one, I'd roll for the number of bidders on the day of the auction (1d6). More is better. The seller(s) can bid if they want (trying to drive up the price but always facing the danger they might end up winning the bid).

Each NPC bidder would be given a preset percentage of the value of lot by me that the players wouldn't know about. It would be between 20 and 80% of the value of the lot, randomly determined.

I'd then hold the auction telling the players what the current bid is, if they participate. Otherwise, the highest NPC willing to bid gets the lot for 5% over the second place bidder (that is, the winner goes one bid higher than the second place bidder will).

Example: I have 3 bidders (NPC's) and the players decline to participate. The percentages rolled are 25%, 50% and 65% of the value of the lot. The lot sells for 55% of its value and the players get 45 to 50% (depending on the percentage paid to the auction house) as their end cash. Of course, that's subject to taxes, etc.

I'd allow use of broker, liaison, and admin skill to increase the chances of getting a better auction house (lower fees, more bidders), but not for the actual bidding. So, each level of applicable skill adds 1 bidder and lowers the percentage from say 10% paid by 1 or 2% (2% for broker, 1% for other).

 

[aramis]

5% is a stupid amount of money and can easily wreck many campaigns.

Better to keep the players hungry.

Real world salvage awards run anywhere up to 10% of fair market value, as estimated by the court, for low risk salvage; up to 25% for high risk.

Note that this is upon the value of what is salvaged, specifically any part of the ship, fittings, cargo (including live chattle), durable provisions and provender, which is presented to the court.

Salvage which saves lives alone is also still paid by the courts, usually based upon the economic losses to the salvor, plus a bonus.

And, salvage which prevents/mitigates disaster is also paid, since the 90's. usually losses and costs plus bonus.

 

[gchuck]

Prize Money

5% is a stupid amount of money and can easily wreck many campaigns.

Since most of the credits are going back into the ship for upgrades, i.e. new comp programs, weapons, avionics and most importantly, drive/power plant overhaul, I as the GM have absolutely no problem with it.

And, since its all happening at a C class starport/Scout base, two and a half months turn-around from the Wise Counsel, it ain't happening fast.

To quote one player, "Great! I've got a crap-ton of money! Now where the hell are all these freaking clones coming from?"

 

[Grav_Moped]

Since most of the credits are going back into the ship for upgrades, i.e. new comp programs, weapons, avionics and most importantly, drive/power plant overhaul, I as the GM have absolutely no problem with it.

And, since its all happening at a C class starport/Scout base, two and a half months turn-around from the Wise Counsel, it ain't happening fast.

To quote one player, "Great! I've got a crap-ton of money! Now where the hell are all these freaking clones coming from?"

Not just upgrades -- repairs, too. One would expect the PC's ship to have taken some damage in the process of capturing a pirate ship...

 

[whartung]

Because without money challenges, there are no challenges at all?

Because without money challenges, there are no challenges at all?

No, but there's less motivation to take the challenges on.

Hunger is a great motivator. Whether it's just a days meal, wealth as status, fame, or something to make the adrenalin gland work today.

Real world salvage awards run anywhere up to 10% of fair market value, as estimated by the court, for low risk salvage; up to 25% for high risk.

If the players are out with the opportunity to makes millions of credits in a wind fall, it had better cost them millions of credits to set it up, or be in debt millions of credits.

No doubt there are several companies around the world that do salvage operations. But I don't imagine that the folks that run, or even own, those companies are in the cat bird seat sitting in the mansion on Boca Raton counting their money. Salvage operations are expensive to run, involve a lot of people,equipment, and regulators, etc.

And, like anything else, they have a hope of earning a margin on their investment -- 30-40% if they're lucky, gross. But what you don't see is a lot of books or TV shows on getting in on a salvage team to make big money. Better to try and flip real estate.

So, the basic point is that whether it's 5% or 10% or 25%, the end result to the players, NET proceeds, should not be vast, phat cash.

You look at a lot of adventures, and mercenary contracts, and whatever. And the players may earn 10,000Cr, 20,000Cr, something like that. Several months living expenses, but it'll run out, and the characters are still hungry. Can't retire yet.

Give a character several MCr? "Why am I taking weapons in to a hostile environment again? For..for how much?"

Sure, they can go in to save the little girl, right a wrong, seek justice. But most of the time, it's just Work. Something to make a living.

When the living is "made", motivation for "adventure" goes way flat.

 

[jcrocker]

When the living is "made", motivation for "adventure" goes way flat.

True, but in the game I was playing, after a nail-biter of a combat session that ended with the players capturing the ship that attacked them by a very narrow margin, one player turned and said to the rest, "Cool. Now let's go get another one." And another player wanted to cash out and retire. YMMV.

 

[Straybow]

If the players are out with the opportunity to makes millions of credits in a wind fall, it had better cost them millions of credits to set it up, or be in debt millions of credits.

Ummm, they are in debt millions. It's called a ship mortgage. It often costs millions to repair damage taken. If fortunate, the prize recoups all that and more.

No doubt there are several companies around the world that do salvage operations. But I don't imagine that the folks that run, or even own, those companies are in the cat bird seat sitting in the mansion on Boca Raton counting their money. Salvage operations are expensive to run, involve a lot of people,equipment, and regulators, etc.

They do when they decide to retire. But most like the work, and keep going. You are also forgetting that unless you have a few players manning a type S, they have people, equipment, and hefty expenses to cover.
·

But more importantly, what you're describing isn't surviving a pirate attack and driving the attackers' ship back to port for prize. You're describing somebody salvaging a shipwreck, a horse of a different color. Many times the wreck has to be found based on sketchy data. Then the wreck is deep under water and must be raised. In many cases the valuables to be salvaged either belong to a government or belong to the insurance company that paid out on the owner's loss. There are laws about how much the salvager collects.
·

On the ocean, many pirates attack large ships from motorboats, or even inflatable dingies, using nothing but AK47s. They can't actually damage the ship, but the crew might have no weapons to repel boarders. If those pirates were defeated there'd be no prize to salvage. Most likely the little boats would be too shot up to remain afloat except as debris. That would be like Traveller pirates attacking your ship with a handful of craft the size of an air raft without ship-to-ship weapons and somehow your ship can't keep them from getting in through the airlock. Not much of a prize if you manage to capture the little runabouts.

And, like anything else, they have a hope of earning a margin on their investment -- 30-40% if they're lucky, gross. But what you don't see is a lot of books or TV shows on getting in on a salvage team to make big money. Better to try and flip real estate.

Claiming an anti-piracy prize is the equivalent of flipping real estate. You get the property cheap and can profit on the difference between the repair cost and the sale price.

So, the basic point is that whether it's 5% or 10% or 25%, the end result to the players, NET proceeds, should not be vast, phat cash.
You look at a lot of adventures, and mercenary contracts, and whatever. And the players may earn 10,000Cr, 20,000Cr, something like that. Several months living expenses, but it'll run out, and the characters are still hungry. Can't retire yet.

I'm trying to picture players hiring out themselves and their ship for such a paltry sum. No, you must be talking about an adventure in which the players are hired to work on somebody else's ship.

Give a character several MCr? "Why am I taking weapons in to a hostile environment again? For..for how much?"

Sure, they can go in to save the little girl, right a wrong, seek justice. But most of the time, it's just Work. Something to make a living.

When the living is "made", motivation for "adventure" goes way flat.

Not so, there's always the possibility of a bigger adventure with a new and bigger ship. Lastly, they aren't being "given" millions, they earned it if they fought and defeated pirates. Just as they would earn it if they managed to land a juicy spec trade deal, or any of the other ways characters may make their fortune.

 

[Timerover51]

I guess that I had not given the idea of prize money a lot of thought, at least between combat ships, or between a merchant ship and a pirate. I have a dim view of space combat, and an even dimmer view of actual boarding actions in space. That is based on the enormous problems of having a steam ship actually ram another steam ship when the problem was simply two-dimensional. About the only time that a ship was successfully rammed by another ship, figuring that the contact of ramming was similar to boarding, was when one ship was basically stopped, while the other one was capable of movement. Note, I am not including those lovely friendly on friendly collisions of the Royal Navy, the most spectacular one being the HMS Camperdown ramming and sinking the HMS Victoria with the commander of the British Mediterranean Fleet going down with his flagship. Tryon was a very wise man to do so.

About the only way that I can see a boarding action actually occurring is if one ship has its maneuver drive totally knocked out so that it cannot either maneuver or change its velocity. If that is the case, then you might be able to match velocity with it close enough to board. Now, unless you can somehow convince your prospective victim to not oppose a boarding, then I suspect that your boarding party is going to have a limited life expentancy. If the ship is that badly damaged, I figure that any boarding party is going to grab what they can of value and bail out. No maneuver drive, so how are you going to get it anywhere to sell it?

As for capturing a pirate, I assume that pirates are executed on sight, so there would be no reason for a trapped pirate ship not to decide to take someone with it when they set of the self-destruction nuke.

 

[Condottiere]

The primary reason the Royal Navy favoured prize money is to motivate the vrew during wartime and keep them hungry and aggressive, life for the rank and file being no picnic, and career choice being somewhat involuntary; possibly a legacy instrument from the days of Drake.

The corresponding dry land equivalent would be looting, which tended to get focussed during sieges, specifically storming a defended and fortified city.

 

[mike wightman]

The Wikipedia article on prize money in the Royal Navy makes for interesting reading...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prize_money

 

[whartung]

Lastly, they aren't being "given" millions, they earned it if they fought and defeated pirates.

If they're out earning their living day to day, scraping by, making mortgage payments, and then a pirate shows up, is defeated, and the players take the ship as a prize resulting in a windfall, then, yea, they ARE being "given" millions. If the repairs suck up all the prize money, then it all works out. Net income isn't "millions of Cr".

If not, then, "suddenly", they now have millions of surplus Cr. They can pay down the ship, sure. But, they can also say "why put it in to the ship, when we can sell the ship, pay of the mortgage and retire."

"Here's enough for a house on Regina, kids in college, get to go fishing".

Just as they would earn it if they managed to land a juicy spec trade deal, or any of the other ways characters may make their fortune.

And there's the trigger. "Make their fortune". My entire point is that if the characters do suddenly "make their fortune", well...they may well be done. So it behooves the referee (perhaps) to keep them hungry and not let that happen, not quickly at least. Not all at once.

 

[aramis]

If they're out earning their living day to day, scraping by, making mortgage payments, and then a pirate shows up, is defeated, and the players take the ship as a prize resulting in a windfall, then, yea, they ARE being "given" millions. If the repairs suck up all the prize money, then it all works out. Net income isn't "millions of Cr".

If not, then, "suddenly", they now have millions of surplus Cr. They can pay down the ship, sure. But, they can also say "why put it in to the ship, when we can sell the ship, pay of the mortgage and retire."

"Here's enough for a house on Regina, kids in college, get to go fishing".



And there's the trigger. "Make their fortune". My entire point is that if the characters do suddenly "make their fortune", well...they may well be done. So it behooves the referee (perhaps) to keep them hungry and not let that happen, not quickly at least. Not all at once.

One of the nasty tricks with certain real world financing contracts: you can't always pay off early.

IMTU, sure, you can prepay, but the title isn't clear until the end of the financing....

 

[Enoki]

One of the nasty tricks with certain real world financing contracts: you can't always pay off early.

IMTU, sure, you can prepay, but the title isn't clear until the end of the financing....

I've never heard of one you can't pay off early, but I have seen ones where you get a massive penalty for doing so.