research and changes in Traveller ?

[JimMarn]

I'm more familar with Traveller now... and I don't see much in the way of scientific breakthroughs.

Is it to make the game more easily playable ? I can see computers, as an example, not staying static for centuries unless research was blocked by the Imperium and others.

So basically, I'm confused by the lack of scientific breakthroughs.

I can see Jump drive changes benig a problem though.

Please, can I get an explanation ?

Thanks !

 

[robject]

I need more information from you, because this general topic seldom comes up, though particulars about technology crop up all the time.

Tech Level. If it is technology across the board, well that's what the technology charts tell us: the Technological Level of a world tells us what it is capable of producing.

Setting. If it's technological progression you're asking about, that's covered by the game setting. If an empire has a long static period, then we'll know that through something like Library Data, which may tell us when (for example) the First Imperium went from TL9 to TL10, and then TL11. It can also tell you what equipment is available at what tech level -- for example, computers improve based on TL.

As another example, Virus was a technological breakthrough, but really it was a plot device to drastically change the setting.

Something in Particular. If it's computer technology in particular that concerns you, you may have to see computers as being quite a bit less specific than we see them in real life. Starship computers are probably not really like the computers we know -- especially since Traveller has very small computers that we would be more familiar with, and yet they're not running starships. The "why's" are very much in the "playability" realm, I think. At many points, verisimilitude must take a back seat. There are many discussions about where that particular line is.

But really the core of the game centers on the actions of players in a particular slice of time chosen by the referee. So research (and there are many research bases, Imperial and commercial) is a plot hook.

 

[whulorigan]

I'm more familar with Traveller now... and I don't see much in the way of scientific breakthroughs.

Is it to make the game more easily playable ? I can see computers, as an example, not staying static for centuries unless research was blocked by the Imperium and others.

So basically, I'm confused by the lack of scientific breakthroughs.

I know some of the guiding-philosophies behind the design of Traveller were:

1) Traveller was to be about people (i.e. PCs) doing things, as opposed to technology doing things for the PCs and solving all of the problems for them;
​

2) The Traveller environment was to seem "familiar" to players so that they could easily interact with the gaming environment.
​

 

[Reban]

If we're talking about scientific breakthroughs that mean changes in tech level you have to consider that there might be lots of changes and improvements to technology or a scientific field, but only major step changes cause changes in overall tech level.

The difference in game terms between a model/0 and a model/1 computer may be small but in real world terms its the change from valves to transistors or something similar.

The other thing to keep in mind is that tech levels don't have to stay static for centuries. Some cultures can speed through a tech level in a decade and then linger at the next TL for a century. This is because the drive to make new discoveries often ebs and flows.

 

[mike wightman]

There are breakthrough technologies in Traveller, but the TL scale is skewed by the jump drive break points.

Another problem is that technologies aren't very well explained or used in diverse applications.

TL8 - grav modules, fusion power
TL9 - maneuver drives (probably gravity based), acceleration compensation fields, radiation deflection screens, jump drive, improved fusion (probably involves grav technology)
TL10 - repulsors, plasma guns, mono-crystaline alloys as structural material/armour
TL11 - "meson" technology in the form of weapons, jump 2
TL12 - nuclear damper technology (manipulation of nuclear forces), "meson" screens, superdense armour/structural material, fusion guns, jump 3
TL13 - battlefield nuclear dampers, improved fusion (probably incorporates damper technology), jump 4
TL14 - bonded superdense armour/structural material, jump 5
TL15 - black globe generators, improved fusion, jump 6

 

[McPerth]

There are breakthrough technologies in Traveller, but the TL scale is skewed by the jump drive break points.

Another problem is that technologies aren't very well explained or used in diverse applications.

TL8 - grav modules, fusion power
TL9 - maneuver drives (probably gravity based), acceleration compensation fields, radiation deflection screens, jump drive, improved fusion (probably involves grav technology)
TL10 - repulsors, plasma guns, mono-crystaline alloys as structural material/armour
TL11 - "meson" technology in the form of weapons, jump 2
TL12 - nuclear damper technology (manipulation of nuclear forces), "meson" screens, superdense armour/structural material, fusion guns, jump 3
TL13 - battlefield nuclear dampers, improved fusion (probably incorporates damper technology), jump 4
TL14 - bonded superdense armour/structural material, jump 5
TL15 - black globe generators, improved fusion, jump 6

The list is quite good, but beware the exact TL for each breakthrough may change with the version (e.g. in MT fusion and gravitics are TL 9).

 

[mike wightman]

Yup, I based it on CT, HG2 and Striker.

 

[JimMarn]

Hmmm...

I was console operator some years ago on a Cray YMP-2 super computer. It could handle a number of jobs at the same time. Oh, probably 20 or more. It did floating point calculations in teraflops. Basically it could simulate a hurricane or tornado mathmatically.

My Bachelors degree is in Applied Computer Science. My biggest program for homework was only about 5 thousand lines of code. An MMOrpg code would be in the millions of lines of code, if not more.

While we have been at the same TL... our computers have drastically changed in my lifetime from huge building size machines to small handhelds like a Raspberry Pi or Android.

So, it seems odd that the computers in Traveller don't seem to progress much over centuries.

I realized it was likely for playability reasons, but hadn't known the Jump drive technology breakpoints were part of it.

 

[Hemdian]

Well there is no scientific level specified anywhere. What we have is tech level... which reflects manufacturing infrastructure as much as anything else. Having said that, the Imperium has changed over time: TL 11 in year 0, TL 13 by 550, and TL 15 by 1105.

You should check out the chapter on technology chapte in T5 (especially the Species Life Span table on p511 which details TL advancement rates).

But I do wonder if the apparent glacial changes seen in the Imperium are less to do with the Vilani worldview and more to do with a de-emphasising of new science on many worlds; worlds were progress involves reading and understanding existing scientific knowledge rather than new research.

 

[JimMarn]

Understanding what they have is one path.

I remember over the years that big jumps in technology have been resisted.

Okay, I can live with Traveller computers. I may house rule something after I get more comfortable with the rules. Nothing drastic though.

 

[whulorigan]

I was console operator some years ago on a Cray YMP-2 super computer. It could handle a number of jobs at the same time. Oh, probably 20 or more. It did floating point calculations in teraflops. Basically it could simulate a hurricane or tornado mathmatically.

It is interesting that you mention that. Ages ago when I did my Senior Project for my B.S. in Physics, I worked with an astrophysics professor to model 3-body gravitational interactions of two stars with a third degenerate star (it was assisting in ongoing research into stellar-interactions at the hearts of Globular Clusters). We used a Cray-YMP supercomputer that ran a modified version of the Smooth Particle Hydrodynamics (SPH) code to mathematically model the stellar bodies.

It showed the initial and final state of the system and how much mass was lost as stellar atmosphere thrown off from the interaction, as well as how much stellar atmosphere transfer occurred between the stars.

 

[JimMarn]

My supervisor had told me that several universities were also using them for various projects. Interesting stuff you did.

 

[Reban]

But I do wonder if the apparent glacial changes seen in the Imperium are less to do with the Vilani worldview and more to do with a de-emphasising of new science on many worlds; worlds were progress involves reading and understanding existing scientific knowledge rather than new research.

Shear scale of the OTU means that "new" science will probably propagate slowly. Peer reviewed articles being carried on the x-web and possibly not even being read in local planetary universities if they are in any way insular .

I think there is a canonical Imperial university isn't there? Probably one of its major rolls is distributing scientific research to its member institutes. Imperial Research Stations might also be a way for the Imperium to draw together the most promising research in a field.



T5 also has a TL progression model for species which includes Average, Fast and Lethargic rates of progression and the possibility of decline to lower TLs by loosing technical ability. In other words scientific discovery and technological implementation isn't a smooth upwards curve.

 

[Condottiere]

Empires might be leery of allowing dual use civilian research to propagate uncontrollably, in case it falls into perfidious hands.

 

[rancke]

Empires might be leery of allowing dual use civilian research to propagate uncontrollably, in case it falls into perfidious hands.

Individual member worlds may or may not be able to control research, depending on their government form, but I don't see the Imperium as having sufficient authority to control the research of member worlds. Too much like interfering with internal affairs.

Imperially funded research is another matter, of course. And I've long assumed that the Imperial Navy kept both jump-5 and jump-6 secret for decades after they were invented. But controlling most ordinary research, no. At least, that's what I think.


Hans