Revisionist History

[Mythmere]

Much of the published material about the Trojan Reach appears to come from DGP. It also seems to be out of synch with GDW materials. Apparently a lot of settlers dashed through undeveloped parts of the Spinward Marches and had a rather nice little shire established while the rimward portion of the Spinward Marches still wallowed in frontier backwater.

Now, I can reconcile this using the link through Reft to Corridor, but here is another question.

What is the canon status of the DGP material?

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

**sound of a man walking CAREFULLY on thin ice**

The staffers at CotI, FFE, QuikLink, and SJG are not saying. If you've ever been in the Service, than perhaps you remember the phrase; "I can neither confirm or deny..."

**sigh**

This is what I get from a friend of mine. It is therefore RUMOR, though I trust the guy I heard it from.

The materials published by the now-defunct DGP no longer belong to the old staff there. They were apparently sold to a person who has more money than sense. Seems that FFE, SJG and QuikLink have approached the owner and offered to buy/lease the rights and he wanted an obscene amount of money for them. So, all that great material is being slowly written out of canon generally.

For my credits, Gamelords, FASA, and DGP did exceptional work for the game we love BECAUSE they loved it. Sad to see the work of so many good folks from the latter company is being set aside by the greed of one utter damn fool, but that is collector-culture I guess.

 

[Mythmere]

Very interesting. Do you happen to know if the map and UWP info in the Trojan Reaches came from DGP, or is that information in the regular canon?

 

[T. Foster]

The map is from GDW's Atlas of the Imperium and is therefore canonical. Those parts of the UWPs that show up on the Atlas map (starport, presence of water, gas giants, and bases, world names for HiPop worlds, allegiance) are also canonical. The other portions of the UWPs are 'loose canon': it was generated by GDW and is generally accepted as canon but was never officially published (by GDW) so wiggle-room is allowed where you need it (but you'd better have a good reason). Note: I'm only talking official-publication-wise ("canon is for authors" and all that); for YTU you can of course change whatever you want.

Note also: some portion of Trojan Reach was also published in TNE's Regency Sourcebook (which I don't have) and that info (however much there is of it) should also be considered canon, at least for the TNE milieu.

 

[Mythmere]

Then here's an interesting thought. A pdf publisher (Hunter?) ought to license the Trojan Reach in exchange for half the gross proceeds and rebuild the history on pdf's with T20 adventures. This would be especially nice for a T20 publisher because it would get T20 very close to the Marches, which are the centerpiece of most canon history.

Of course, no one official is going to respond to this, because no one will talk about DGP. Oh, well.

 

[T. Foster]

While Marc Miller and Roger Sanger won't talk about the dispute (at least not openly) Hunter did some quite candid talking about it not too long ago in this thread. Read it and weep at the hopelessness of the situation.

 

[hunter]

I wouldn't be opposed to publishing new material for the Trojan Reaches or any other sector. Those interested can always submit a proposal...

Hunter

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by Mythmere:
Of course, no one official is going to respond to this, because no one will talk about DGP. Oh, well.

I'm not sure you want to hear. Ask and you'll likely get an answer. There is no 'cone of silence' when it comes to the DGP stuff. As was pointed out in a previous post on this thread I have been pretty candid about the situation.

Hunter

 

[Mythmere]

I don't mind hearing it

I used to negotiate mergers and acquisitions, and I can see where this situation stacks up with pretty good accuracy, I think. But superior rights versus unreasonable demands tempered with the reaction of diehard fans to a surgical operation and further tempered with an unwillingness to engage in a lawsuit when the other party can be starved out without inconvenience ...

It's really just curiosity, though. I'd love to license the Trojan Reaches and develop it under the T20 rubric if I had the cash to bring to the table. *sigh*

 

[Mythmere]

I wouldn't be opposed to publishing new material for the Trojan Reaches or any other sector. Those interested can always submit a proposal...

Here is the outline of an initial Trojan Reaches Proposal

Game and Design Considerations:
The material would be presented ca 993, to integrate with the Gateway Domain materials. If possible, however, I would prefer to set the materials after the Fifth Frontier War.
Divergent “possible” timelines for the future would be discussed, in keeping with a more T20/d20 presentation of campaign flexibility.
Overall astrographics will reflect a more sensible border region with the Imperium blending away into an Aslan buffer zone, with varying degrees of Imperial control and uncertain political definitions. Historically, Empires don’t have sharp borders.
Overall thematic treatment will be darker than in the Gateway domain. The Imperium will be losing out in the grey zone to rising independent confederacies and Aslan (and Zhodani, to coreward and spinward) influence. This is the area where the THB foreshadowings of Imperial weakness are played out. Corruption and graft far from centralized oversight are eating away at the foundations of civilization. In the Trojan Reaches, players will have to decide what they stand for. Democracy? Home rule? The broad scope of human culture represented by the Imperium? Unfettered self-interest? Aslan honor? This will be a milieu in which the shifting tectonic plates of historical inevitability are beginning to grind at each other.

Business Considerations
This project is completely outside your current business plan, I presume. Therefore I propose that it be executed entirely by pdf, unless demand for print versions reaches cost effective levels.

I propose that QL sanction a private group of authors to develop and market the pdfs on QL’s site, with QL taking 40% of the proceeds and paying the remainder as royalty. If QL elects to make the material “official,” then QL keeps 60% rather than 40%. The work is not made for hire but QL has a perpetual transferable license and may create derivative works without any payment being due to the authors of the original material (and whatever else is necessary to prevent a repeat of the DGP problem). QL will defend the authors against any legal challenge to their right to use canon material under the terms of the contract.

Format
I’m flexible here, and the size and price of the “packages” should probably be determined in accordance with QL’s roll-out strategy on other products. I would suggest a subsector sourcebook every two months, with a serialized kind of approach.

In summary, the project would require no up-front cash outlay by QL, and QL would have the ability to decide that the work is not up to required quality standards, take it down, and cancel the right to disseminate the material for profit.

I would like QL’s assistance with final production of the pdf.

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

Originally posted by hunter:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mythmere:
Of course, no one official is going to respond to this, because no one will talk about DGP. Oh, well.

I'm not sure you want to hear. Ask and you'll likely get an answer. There is no 'cone of silence' when it comes to the DGP stuff. As was pointed out in a previous post on this thread I have been pretty candid about the situation.

Hunter </font>[/QUOTE]To all hands, this is the Captain....

Hunter, I want to go on record as apologizing to you and QLI, and for that matter everyone else.

I had not seen the thread regarding DGP and I don't get TML as I simply don't have time to read and digest it all.

I hope that my post here has not brought up difficult issues, but it's hard for me to see how it couldn't. Sorry about that. I honestly didn't know that you had dealt with it, and quite openly. I really appreciate that, and I wish I'd seen it sooner.

I'll keep looking out for the DGP stuff I would care to use IMTU, and with any kind of luck, Mr. Sanger will come to his senses. It sounds as if all parties have valid points, but you are right. One is only relavent until one is made irrelavent.

 

[Elliot]

Earthlings I come in peace...

As I said elsewhere - The Atlas detailed the worlds but with only a few names, ADV4 gave two sectors, the RSB gave the old UWP and the TNE UWP for the Imperial portion of the Trojans. In that sense those things are GDW and fair game under MWM fair usage policy.

As to the rest: Doesn't the Trojan Reach IP rest with Mike Jackson and not DGP, didn't DGP comission Mike Jackson to write the article in Digest 20 for them?

I understand the GURPS people were going to do a TR book and that it died: was this due to copyright or other reasons? (I realise an answer may not be forthcoming as the answer might be private, but if its not it would be interesting to know.)

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Elliot:
As to the rest: Doesn't the Trojan Reach IP rest with Mike Jackson and not DGP, didn't DGP comission Mike Jackson to write the article in Digest 20 for them?

While I can't speak with authority as IANAL and because I don't know the particulars, I can tell you this.

Most game companys (meaning every one I have ever heard of) demand that you surrender copyright when submitting derivative work. Most contributors gladly submit to this (I know I have) because it is more important to the contributor that their work be accepted than to retain rights to it.

A great example is GT:Behind the Claw. While it was written by MJD and NAF, the copyright is held by SJG. In the highly unlikely situation where SJG went under, the rights would then be owned by whomever bought them and they would not revert to MJD and NAF.

While I can make no guarantees, I am quite confident that Mike Jackson surrendered whatever copyright he had to DGP when he submitted the material to DGP.

Don't let the GDW situation confuse the issue. I am quite sure that, for example, the rights to Traveller did NOT "revert" to MWM upon GDW's demise (though that is how MWM and others have described the situation). A more correct description would probably be that just prior to expiring, GDW transferred rights to MWM.

Most companies would likely not do this. In the case of a bankruptcy, a company CAN'T do this. But GDW was not backrupt; they simply closed.

 

[Elliot]

As an academic author and as a litigator who has represented clients myself, I am aware of how much a person gives away when he signs a publishing agreement.

However, the complex case of the Trojan Data is not so easy to pin down. Mike Jackson published almost every that appear in TD20 in Canada's Third Imperium fanzine. He publish a heck of a lot more in that fanzine. Unless Joe Fugate (sadly missed) had a genius of a legal advisor I do not think it is likely that the contract for the 5 page article in TD20 included the assignment of all intellectual property owned by MJ for the Trojan Reaches.

Furthermore, with the exception of the 1/2 and a bit page block on the Floriani nothing exists in the write up section in TD20 (i.e. not the world UWPs) that wasn't published in 1995 by Dave in GDWs Regency Sourcebook. Added to this the RSB publish the old stats on Gazulin, Sindal and Tobia from TD20, yet all rights in the RSB are (c) GDW, Inc.

So either the much maligned Mr Sangar (who is probably more a victim of chinese whispers than even Dave himself) claims more IP than he possesses. Alternatively, it is assumed that he claims more than he is entitled to.

I think I am not being disrespectful to say that MWM asserts all interest in GDW Traveller products. If that is the case, then the RSB information is fair game under Mr Miller's generous fair usage policy.

Obviously I am not privy to what those who have taken the commercial risk in publishing Traveller know, I am just fan without the talent or time to write commercial RPG's products. But the chinese whisper chain that some fans seem to love has never explain what the problem with the Trojan Reaches are. I assume that people are afraid of what Mr Sangar might do, as I have never (over the past four years) read any statement from him or anyone else as to what people can't do with material that has been publish in at least two other sources (i.e. Third Imperium and GDW's RSB).

I dont agree that a prima facie case can be made out that all rights in the Trojan Reaches were assigned to DGP in 1990. It is possible that insider information will show that I am wrong, but the publication of the RSB indicates that MJ and MWM has as much a claim to the material as RS. But perhaps this discussion is ultimately fruitless............

 

[Mythmere]

Actually, given the Regency Sourcebook, it is probably not the TR that is the issue, but other material.

 

[JFZeigler]

Originally posted by Elliot:
I understand the GURPS people were going to do a TR book and that it died: was this due to copyright or other reasons? (I realise an answer may not be forthcoming as the answer might be private, but if its not it would be interesting to know.)

I am indeed bound not to discuss why the GURPS Traveller Trojan Reach book was cancelled. I can say that it wasn't due to copyright issues.

In fact, some of the material from the draft of that book is going to appear in GT:Humaniti shortly.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Elliot:
As an academic author and as a litigator who has represented clients myself, I am aware of how much a person gives away when he signs a publishing agreement.

However, the complex case of the Trojan Data is not so easy to pin down.

Cool. No insult intended.

BTW, since it appears you actually have a copy of those old fanzines, what is the copyright declaration on those? Does it show the copyright as belonging to the author or the publisher?

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Elliot:
Furthermore, with the exception of the 1/2 and a bit page block on the Floriani nothing exists in the write up section in TD20 (i.e. not the world UWPs) that wasn't published in 1995 by Dave in GDWs Regency Sourcebook. Added to this the RSB publish the old stats on Gazulin, Sindal and Tobia from TD20, yet all rights in the RSB are (c) GDW, Inc.

That doesn't prove anything either way, though. As I understand it, the issue isn't whether Marc Miller has the right to use DGP copyrighted material as background material himself. Mr. Sanger himself has posted that he acknowledge that MM does have that right (If you have Jim Vassiliakos' Galactic program you can find the text quoted there). The question appears to be whether or not MM has the right to pass on those right to a third party. Whether or not he does, he certainly did have the right to have GDW use the TR material in Regency Sourcebook.


Hans

 

[Elliot]

Hans:

I think your reading history backwards - As I understand it MWM had left GDW when the RSG came out. I also understand the situation to be that MWM/FFE obtained the rights to Traveller by some kind of assignment or reversion agreement after GDW folded. Thus when the RSG came out, GDW didn't print that material under licence from MWM or from DGP as they were the holders of the (c) at the time.