Robot design

[Carlobrand]

Okay, I'm fiddlin' with robots. There've been some changes since last I played in that sandbox.

Original robot Book 8 had weight (well, mass) for appendages but no volume; I was left to conclude that the appendages were exterior to the chassis. CT Errata says we take the weight as the volume. Do we deduct the volume of the appendages from the chassis volume (i.e. the "chassis" is considered the chassis plus appendages; perhaps the appendages store in or snug up to the chassis when not in use), or do we - as with the head - add the appendage volume to the volume of the chassis to obtain an overall volume for Mr. Roboto?

Book 8 also has weights for sensors, devices and weapons - but no volumes. There's a rule setting limits to how much weight an appendage can carry. There's a rule adding the volume of the "head" to the total chassis volume, so that at least is clearly outside the chassis. However, it's not clear what's inside it and what's attached on the outside of it. Are these various accoutrements exterior to the chassis/head/appendage? Exterior to the appendage but deducted from the chassis/head?

In other words, if I grab a janitorial tool package, does it ride in a box on the outside or get stored inside the chassis, presumably for the arms to select and use what tools they wish? If I put a basic sensor package in the chassis or head, is it inside or outside? If I slap a basic sensor package on an arm to peer around corners, is it inside or outside?

 

[Carlobrand]

And while we're on the subject, what skill is used when the bot uses its janitorial tool package? Is that lumped under, "Steward"? What skills are used for the Carpentry and Metalwork tool sets?

 

[Piper]

And while we're on the subject, what skill is used when the bot uses its janitorial tool package? Is that lumped under, "Steward"?

It would certainly be covered by steward also by valet. Seems like it would be a default skill for a number of programs. Medical and cargo handling should be able to clean things.

What skills are used for the Carpentry and Metalwork tool sets?

Mechanical.

 

[Piper]

Okay, I'm fiddlin' with robots. There've been some changes since last I played in that sandbox.

Can't be much help here except to mention that the original JTAS articles used weight (mass) only which made for a simpler and cleaner design system.

And yes, I know that this is a useless non-answer.

 

[BlackBat242]

If there are any examples where weight and volume are both known and fixed quantities, then perhaps - perhaps I say - you can use those to calculate "average density", and then use that to come up with the missing volumes.

Or perhaps you convert the "mass/weight" into volume by declaring that 1 ton volume (13.5 m3) = 1ton (1,000kg) mass/weight.

 

[Carlobrand]

It would certainly be covered by steward also by valet. Seems like it would be a default skill for a number of programs. Medical and cargo handling should be able to clean things.


Mechanical.

Thanks, that corresponds mostly with what I'm thinking. Valet needs an emotion simulator program, which leads me to believe it looks more at personal care and butlering than housekeeping, but I've never had or been a valet so I'm running off internet sources there, and they aren't always real reliable.

If there are any examples where weight and volume are both known and fixed quantities, then perhaps - perhaps I say - you can use those to calculate "average density", and then use that to come up with the missing volumes.

Or perhaps you convert the "mass/weight" into volume by declaring that 1 ton volume (13.5 m3) = 1ton (1,000kg) mass/weight.

Well, some of the stuff has Striker or MegaTrav equivalents that could be mined, but before I go there I first need to figure out if you're stowing the broom and the mop and the hammer and the drill and the vid-cam and the television and so forth inside the chassis or outside in built-on cabinets, boxes and mountings. RAW seems to suggest the latter since no volumes are mentioned, but if it's the former then I'm pretty well going with the 1 liter = 1 kilogram model (same as yours) since that's what almost everything in both Striker and MegaTrav (except radios, for some reason, and armor and fusion plants) is done at.

 

[snrdg082102]

Howdy Carlobrand,

Rob Prior translated CT Robots in to MT Robots which can be downloaded from http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/94849/MT-MegaTraveller-Robots?term=MT+Robots for free.

The book follows the same design and construction process as found in MT: Referee's Manual and several other products.

Other than the above I'm still trying to find something more in my CT stuff.

 

[Supplement Four]

Don"t forget the robot rules in JTAS, which were published pre- Book 8.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello Supplement Four,

Don"t forget the robot rules in JTAS, which were published pre- Book 8.

I forgot, thanks for the reminder. Pulling out my copy of BITS "The Periodical Bibliography" I found these sources:

The Travellers' Digest Number 1: Robot Design Revisited, Part 1 copyright 1985 pages 37-47
The Travellers' Digest Number 2: Robot Design Revisited, Part 2 copyright 1985 pages 43-47
The Travellers' Digest Number 3: Robot Design Revisited, Part 3 copyright 1985 pages 40-43

JTAS 2: Robots: Ref's Notes copyright 1979 pages 10-11 & 30-31
JTAS 3: Robots II: Ref's Notes copyright 1979 pages 6-11
JTAS 4: Robots III: Ref's Notes copyright 1979 pages 22-27
JTAS 5: Sample Robots copyright 1980 pages 14-15

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening Carlobrand,

Have you checked the Consolidated CT Errata version 0.08. Page 20 mentions that the wheels require at least 1.5% of chassis volume.

 

[Carlobrand]

Evening Carlobrand,

Have you checked the Consolidated CT Errata version 0.08. Page 20 mentions that the wheels require at least 1.5% of chassis volume.

Yes, they do. Locomotive equipment and power plant have volume, not a problem. Errata made some tweaks there, including resolving a problem involving calculating the transmission. I'm looking at sensors, devices and weapons at the moment.

I don't know that JTAS is much help. It doesn't seem to deal with volume at all. It does make the interesting requirement that performing many of the skills - like ATV and Air/Raft, skills involving use of human tools like Mechanical, even skills like Navigator - requires a pair of light arms (which in JTAS come equipped with a "manipulatory device duplicating the human hand"). I don't see such a requirement in Book 8; you could conceivably have the bot grab the wheel of your ATV or start punching numbers into the navigation console with his hundred-pound Strength-50 Heavy Arms, whose "hands" one hopes are large enough and strong enough to make use of that great strength (Maybe there's a normal hand at the end of the big hand's forefinger ). Interestingly, JTAS also talks about hands. I don't see hands mentioned in Book 8 at all; we're just left to assume there's some sort of device at the end of the arm that allows it to grip all those tools the thing can carry.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello Carlobrand,

Yes, they do. Locomotive equipment and power plant have volume, not a problem. Errata made some tweaks there, including resolving a problem involving calculating the transmission. I'm looking at sensors, devices and weapons at the moment.

I don't know that JTAS is much help. It doesn't seem to deal with volume at all. It does make the interesting requirement that performing many of the skills - like ATV and Air/Raft, skills involving use of human tools like Mechanical, even skills like Navigator - requires a pair of light arms (which in JTAS come equipped with a "manipulatory device duplicating the human hand"). I don't see such a requirement in Book 8; you could conceivably have the bot grab the wheel of your ATV or start punching numbers into the navigation console with his hundred-pound Strength-50 Heavy Arms, whose "hands" one hopes are large enough and strong enough to make use of that great strength (Maybe there's a normal hand at the end of the big hand's forefinger ). Interestingly, JTAS also talks about hands. I don't see hands mentioned in Book 8 at all; we're just left to assume there's some sort of device at the end of the arm that allows it to grip all those tools the thing can carry.

I have to admit that it has been a while since I looked at CT Robots. MT Robots on the other hand was within the last two years.

What I do recall is that most character skills can be used by Robots. If I weren't trying to figure out how a ship's statistic MCr I'd take a more in depth look. So far the only thing I can say for sure is that part of the statistic MCr is based on the hull and components, but I not sure where the quantity discount and architect's fee fit into the calculations.

Adventure 5 TCS adds the architect's fee to the hull and components. In HG2 the price is the hull and components, while the Consolidated CT Errata applies the quantity discount.

If I can I'll see what I can dig up, but don't count on that being anytime soon.

 

[Carlobrand]

... So far the only thing I can say for sure is that part of the statistic MCr is based on the hull and components, but I not sure where the quantity discount and architect's fee fit into the calculations.

Adventure 5 TCS adds the architect's fee to the hull and components. In HG2 the price is the hull and components, while the Consolidated CT Errata applies the quantity discount.

If I can I'll see what I can dig up, but don't count on that being anytime soon.

Oh, goodness, you are preoccupied. I don't know of a quantity discount or architect fee with regard to robots.

Take your time and sort the other business out. I've been nibbling at this project for over a year; I'm not in a hurry.

Clarification: am I correct that the suspension and transmission and power plant and all that come in units, and one unit is the minimum size, and no fractional units? Examples seem to confirm that for the grav (no surprise) and Air-Cushion (a bit of a surprise). However, legs and wheels and tracks start talking about percentages, and the examples are big enough that it's not clear whether they're permitting fractional accounting for those or not. Wasn't as much of a problem when they were taking up 15-20% of the volume, but the new wheel/track errata's taking them down to 1.5% and 2% of volume. The game offer's little bot shells in the 5 and 10 liter range, but it's difficult to fit the gear in them with the 1.5% wheel suspension being held to a minimum 1 liter size. Same issue with the transmission. I've basically got a locomotive system suited for a 67-kilo bot being used for a 5 kilo bot - and it's taking up a third of the available space.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello Carlobrand,

This is interesting the web gremlins seem not to like Aramis today since I was able to use the Quote button to reply to you. I also guessed right that had the button worked the QUOTE=Aramis would have been shown as 487347

Oh, goodness, you are preoccupied. I don't know of a quantity discount or architect fee with regard to robots.

I noticed that the author or authors for the robots steered clear of architect's fees and discounts going with just the combined total of the components. Made things easier on me and my trait of trying to follow the design process as literally as possible, every the gray or grey areas.

Take your time and sort the other business out. I've been nibbling at this project for over a year; I'm not in a hurry.

You're smarter than me, since I've been trying to sort out the design and construction procedures found in the various Traveller books for years on a rotating roster. I start with one and work until I hit a wall, like HG2's statistic MCr, then I move to the next one. If I'm lucky I might put HG2 down as completed.

Clarification: am I correct that the suspension and transmission and power plant and all that come in units, and one unit is the minimum size, and no fractional units? Examples seem to confirm that for the grav (no surprise) and Air-Cushion (a bit of a surprise).

According to the Consolidated CT Errata CT robot design has more in common with MT design system.

I think, after making a quick check in MT: Referee's Manual, the answer is yes the power plant, suspension and transmission are separate systems.
Suspension systems are either thrust-based (air cushion and grav) or contact (legs, tracks, or wheels). The transmission is associated with the contact-based suspensions.

Per MT air-cushion suspensions are available at TL 7 and grav units are available at TL 9. Grav units, unlike air-cushions, per MT have improvements available at TL 10 and again at TL 12.

However, legs and wheels and tracks start talking about percentages, and the examples are big enough that it's not clear whether they're permitting fractional accounting for those or not. Wasn't as much of a problem when they were taking up 15-20% of the volume, but the new wheel/track errata's taking them down to 1.5% and 2% of volume. The game offer's little bot shells in the 5 and 10 liter range, but it's difficult to fit the gear in them with the 1.5% wheel suspension being held to a minimum 1 liter size. Same issue with the transmission. I've basically got a locomotive system suited for a 67-kilo bot being used for a 5 kilo bot - and it's taking up a third of the available space.

The above seems similar to CT small craft design which sets the smallest fuel value at 1 ton of fuel. Fractions are allowed on tanks >1 ton anything <1 ton is going to be 1 ton.

My guess based on is that the smallest suspension system is 1 liter, which suggests that air-cushion or grav suspensions are a better choice for designs between 5 and 10 liters.

Probably not much help, but tis the best I can come up with.

 

[Carlobrand]

...I noticed that the author or authors for the robots steered clear of architect's fees and discounts going with just the combined total of the components. Made things easier on me and my trait of trying to follow the design process as literally as possible, every the gray or grey areas. ...

Well, I wouldn't expect architect's fees on something too small for people to go inside. As for discounts - maybe they figured the salesman on the floor would deal with that. He can always make it back by selling you the extended warranty.

...You're smarter than me, since I've been trying to sort out the design and construction procedures found in the various Traveller books for years on a rotating roster. I start with one and work until I hit a wall, like HG2's statistic MCr, then I move to the next one. If I'm lucky I might put HG2 down as completed. ...

That would be because you are obsessive. No fault there, I'm that way or I wouldn't be here fussing about the volume of accoutrements. There's a lot of us that share that trait - you only need to look around and note the folk who get downright heated when arguing for or against some minor point of rules arcana or how things work in the real world. Seems to be a gamer thing.

That, and there are a couple of interpretations you seem to be reluctant to let go of, but again no fault, we all have those. Mine tend to be more socio-economic.

...According to the Consolidated CT Errata CT robot design has more in common with MT design system. ...

Yes, and yet no. The bot fusion plants are not MT fusion plants. The largest bot fusion plant, the 1000 liter type A, is identical to a MegaTrav TL11 1 kiloliter fusion plant (and to a Striker TL9 1 kiloliter fusion plant): cost, power output, mass are all identical. Fuel consumption's different, but MegaTrav went in a new direction with fuel consumption: a MegaTrav ship plant can chew through a CT "month's supply" of fuel in about 4 or 5 days. The bot Type A fuel rate is actually the same as the Striker plant. Additional differences show up in the smaller plants.

The 250 liter plant, for example, is described as the smallest practical size. It delivers 245 Kw, masses a ton, costs Cr300,000 and draws 0.75 liters of hydrogen per hour. You get a 50% increase in power output at TL13 and a 300% increase at TL15, but the unit itself remains the same - same mass, same fuel rate.

An MT power plant of comparable size and mass first appears at TL12, delivers 125 Kw, costs Cr50,000, though it draws the same amount of fuel. At TL13, it delivers 188 kilowatts (50% more, that's the same) at the same cost as the TL12 model, but it's lighter - 750 kilograms - and it draws more fuel at 1.125 liters per hour. At TL15, it delivers 375 kilowatts (3x, that's the same) at the same cost as the TL12 model, but it's lighter again - 500 kilograms - and it draws even more fuel at 2.25 liters per hour. (Has something to do with that scale efficiencies bit.)

Ergo, one cannot transfer from MT to Book 8 with any certainty. We'd have to errata in a 50% cut in power output to bring them into line with each other.

(It ain't precisely a Striker plant either. Striker follows - or maybe introduces - the MT model, with the TL13 plant delivering 50% more power but weighing 3/4 as much and the TL15 plant delivering 3 times the power but weighing half as much. Book 8 does its own thing, most likely to keep things simple.)

... Probably not much help, but tis the best I can come up with.

I appreciate your thoughts. I can use all the help I can get.

 

[snrdg082102]

Well, I wouldn't expect architect's fees on something too small for people to go inside. As for discounts - maybe they figured the salesman on the floor would deal with that. He can always make it back by selling you the extended warranty.

Okay, for robots instead of an architect's fee the cost could have been a design fee for the first robot of the class.

Any warranty I've purchased even with discounts seemed to push the cost up, doesn't appear to happen in robot design.

That would be because you are obsessive. No fault there, I'm that way or I wouldn't be here fussing about the volume of accoutrements. There's a lot of us that share that trait - you only need to look around and note the folk who get downright heated when arguing for or against some minor point of rules arcana or how things work in the real world. Seems to be a gamer thing.

That, and there are a couple of interpretations you seem to be reluctant to let go of, but again no fault, we all have those. Mine tend to be more socio-economic.

Yep, I can be obsessive especially after several design critiques that focuses on MCr. Heck, I even provided a breakdown of how I arrived at the numbers.

Like my reluctance to let go of the architect's fee and the ship's total construction cost. To me design and construction, okay I see where I maybe going off the track. I've been thinking that the "and" includes combining the costs together, apparently my issue was not thinking.

Yes, and yet no. The bot fusion plants are not MT fusion plants. The largest bot fusion plant, the 1000 liter type A, is identical to a MegaTrav TL11 1 kiloliter fusion plant (and to a Striker TL9 1 kiloliter fusion plant): cost, power output, mass are all identical. Fuel consumption's different, but MegaTrav went in a new direction with fuel consumption: a MegaTrav ship plant can chew through a CT "month's supply" of fuel in about 4 or 5 days. The bot Type A fuel rate is actually the same as the Striker plant. Additional differences show up in the smaller plants.

The 250 liter plant, for example, is described as the smallest practical size. It delivers 245 Kw, masses a ton, costs Cr300,000 and draws 0.75 liters of hydrogen per hour. You get a 50% increase in power output at TL13 and a 300% increase at TL15, but the unit itself remains the same - same mass, same fuel rate.

An MT power plant of comparable size and mass first appears at TL12, delivers 125 Kw, costs Cr50,000, though it draws the same amount of fuel. At TL13, it delivers 188 kilowatts (50% more, that's the same) at the same cost as the TL12 model, but it's lighter - 750 kilograms - and it draws more fuel at 1.125 liters per hour. At TL15, it delivers 375 kilowatts (3x, that's the same) at the same cost as the TL12 model, but it's lighter again - 500 kilograms - and it draws even more fuel at 2.25 liters per hour. (Has something to do with that scale efficiencies bit.)

Ergo, one cannot transfer from MT to Book 8 with any certainty. We'd have to errata in a 50% cut in power output to bring them into line with each other.

(It ain't precisely a Striker plant either. Striker follows - or maybe introduces - the MT model, with the TL13 plant delivering 50% more power but weighing 3/4 as much and the TL15 plant delivering 3 times the power but weighing half as much. Book 8 does its own thing, most likely to keep things simple.)

Well I think that robot design does have a lot in common, not identical, with the ones from Striker, which I decided not to mention at the last second, and MT.

I was going to bring up Striker as being a basis for both the robot and MT design processes. My guess is that the author/authors tinkered with the rules for use in Book 8 and MT. Another guess is that Book 8 was sort of the draft for the hulls >0 and <100 tons since the hull >=100-tons really didn't change much in MT.

I appreciate your thoughts. I can use all the help I can get.

Then I'm glad to be of service.

 

[Hyphen]

However, legs and wheels and tracks start talking about percentages, and the examples are big enough that it's not clear whether they're permitting fractional accounting for those or not. Wasn't as much of a problem when they were taking up 15-20% of the volume, but the new wheel/track errata's taking them down to 1.5% and 2% of volume.

Just glanced at this thread, so not a full response, but have you looked at my Reconciling Robots page? It's mostly about legs and volumes.

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