Romance in the Military/Law Enforcement

[Vargr]

Ok, this isn't directly related with Traveller but from the forums I frequent CoTI seems to be the one where I am most likely to get an answer, as I believe a few folks here have served, or are serving in the military and law-enforcement IRL.

Lately I've been watching a bit of military sci-fi, and one thing that seems to be quite popular these days is service interpersonal relations, i.e. romance between two crewmembers of a military starship or something similar. In all the cases I have seen in fiction so far, this doesn't seem to raise a problem with anyone within the story. Sometimes the romance between two fellow servicepersons is a major plot point or even what propels the storyline forward at a certain juncture.

I was curious if the current IRL situation is somewhere along the lines that are seemingly popular in ficion today. What is the policy of military and law-enforcement services about this issue nowdays? Is it tolerated? Frowned upon? Downright forbidden?

I suspect of course the reality will change according to which country's military we are talking about, but I guess we can get an "overall picture" of the current situation among the Western military.

 

[sabredog]

It's frowned upon, or against policy for what is termed "public displays of affection". Also, liaisons, or fraternization, between officers and enlisted ranks in the military are forbidden.

In civilian LE it's just the worries about possible sexual harrassment/ hostile workplace lawsuits that restrain it between the executive and employee ranks (or their equivalents). We also had annual training on that, but as in all things human, real life is never the ideal that policy demands. Accordingly things are just kept on the QT as much as possible if they happen, and a lot of looking the other way occurs. It is stricter in the military, but in civilian life it depends on who is in charge.

On the TV shows it seems so much more up front because that's what draws viewers to shows like Boredomstar Galaxative more than blasting Cylons. I preferred the blasting Cylons to the simpering, angst-ridden interpersonal drama but a lot of that is because I get enough of that in RL as it is and look for escape in sci-fi and games.

And you can never have enough lasers in sci-fi, IM not-so-humble opinion.

 

[Vargr]

Also, liaisons, or fraternization, between officers and enlisted ranks in the military are forbidden.

Fraternization, as in "inviting the guys for a drink"?

On the TV shows it seems so much more up front because that's what draws viewers to shows like Boredomstar Galaxative more than blasting Cylons.

He he he, that is one show I would hardly classify as "Military SF".

I preferred the blasting Cylons to the simpering, angst-ridden interpersonal drama but a lot of that is because I get enough of that in RL as it is and look for escape in sci-fi and games.

Thankfully it doesn't get that far on the military SF serie I am currently watching. The two events that promped me to ask the question where a kiss shared by the ship's captain and the first officer while they where privately discussing the possible ramifications of a surrender (the enemy had promissed a full pardon for the crew except the 5 officers deemed as the instigators of "terrorism" and "piracy"); and a very public declaration of love by a gunnery operator to her superior. The captain mentioned something about it being "against regulations" but let it slide because it had been done to improve ship's morale. The crew had "lost its center" and thanks to that cadet's confession that the reason she had chosen to stay aboard the vessel was out of concern for a man she had worked with (and loved secretly) for two years helped them get their s*it straight and get back on the mission.

And you can never have enough lasers in sci-fi, IM not-so-humble opinion.

What about spinal-mounted plasma weapons, 300 Petewatt ship's lasers and the next step in the evolution of sandcasters?

 

[jappel]

Strictly speaking, there's supposed to be limited social interaction between the different grades (officers, NCOs and junior enlisted), romantic or otherwise; by the letter of regulation and custom, that's fraternization. But in common use it's come to mean romantic involvement. In practice (or at least 20+ years ago) you might get in trouble for it, but the sure-fire way to kill your career was to engage in a relationship with a junior under your command.

So yeah, the specific example you're citing would be right out. If the two individuals weren't in the same chain of command (i.e. one subordinate to the other) it might be viewed as a "complication" and possibly cause issues for one or both, but CO and first officer? That's taking the rule book and setting it on fire.

 

[Vargr]

CO and first officer? That's taking the rule book and setting it on fire.

I guess that's why the tactical officer just choked when she unadvertidely came upon the two while they were sharing a rather tender moment.

I'm really liking this series; the interpersonal relation stuff acts as character development while not being the main focus.

And main characters deaths are not uncommon.

 

[sabredog]

Since I'm always looking for good military sci-fi...what is this show you're watching?

And yes, spinal weapons are always a good thing - is this some Robotech or Yamato iteration you are watching?

BTW: yeah, fraternization can mean having a drink between enlisted vs. officer ranks, but...as in all things that can be open to interpretation depending on who is involved. But as was pointed out, common parlance is involving sexual relations and how it may negatively impact morale, chain o' command, etc..

 

[Peter Schutze]

>Fraternization, as in "inviting the guys for a drink"?

If you are in a mixed sex unit and "the drink" is in a non-public place like the barracks, I would expect the officers and senior noncoms to be given serious once-in-a-career councelling the next day.

>weren't in the same chain of command

the chain of command rule is the origin of the "loneliness of command" expressions especially since the higher you rise the bigger the group in your chain.

>law-enforcement

law enforcement in Australia is under the same sexual harrassment etc rules as any other employer so the chain-of-command is much more nebulous

 

[Lycanorukke]

As you mention it varies - even amoungst the Western forces and the various combat forces.

Speaking from the NCO navy level - going out with your section (marine engineering, Combat systems, weapons crews, etc) to invade a pub, a sports night, etc is okay. But anything beyond that and you are on dangerous ground, and romantic/sexual involvement (fraternization) is right out - you'll be fronting the XO's table (or court depending on rank & severity) faster than you could blink.

I understand that officer country rules are even stricter - even stepping into the grey zone can wreck your career, so very few stray from the rulebook. As Peter Schutze mentions the 'lonlieness of command' - the higher your rank the less you are able to interact with subordinates beyond a professional by-the-book method.

The same goes with other standard staples of 'Soap opera military' - show up to your watch drunk, punch out a superior or just mouth off to them, pull some stupid 'hero style' stunt and you are screwed - no matter how big a hot shot you are.

 

[Sturn]

US Army circa 1990's

Officers couldn't socialize with NCO's who couldn't socialize with Enlisted per policy. In practice, Officers actually didn't socialize with NCO's/Enlisted or there was punishment to face if discovered (a Sergeant I knew got booted from the Army for having a relationship with an officer - they later married). NCO's and enlisted commonly socialized against policy, just not at work. I drank many beers with NCO's as enlisted and returned the favor when I became an NCO. Romantic relationships between a male Sergeant and a female Private were common, just not expressed in the work place.

Law Enforcement

Romantic relationships kept quiet at work. Displays or discussions of affection shouldn't or don't happen in the work place. After work, it seems to be completely accepted and nothing against it in my department's policy. Have seen some get married that met at work.

 

[Keklas Rekobah]

Personal experience reminds me that workplace romance - whether in an office, in the field or on-board a ship - is rarely a good idea, at least in the long run. Sooner or later, someone is going to claim favoritism or give in to jealousy. And then there is always the opportunity for a higher-ranking person to use the old "Put out for me or your boyfriend gets re-assigned." Sometimes, a higher-ranking person will put the two lovers on opposite watches just to be mean. Of course, the excuse will be more like "For good order and discipline" but the results are the same. And you never know when you might have to sacrifice your loved one's life for the survival of the command.

(Remember that scene from 'Starship Troopers' where the girlfriend's fighter crashed to the deck, and the boyfriend refused to admit that she was already dead?)

However, for cinematic purposes, nothing creates dramatic tension more than unresolved sexual issues. And that is why it features so well in a TV series or a movie.

 

[RockyMountainNavy]

Fraternization

"Fraternization," though often associated with romantic/sexual relations, actually covers much more. Officer or enlisted has little to do with it, the key is leader-subordinate. For example, two officers in the same unit are discouraged from romantic relations IF one is the senior/leader of the other. In a similar manner, it is considered fraternization if a leader shares fishing weekends with a particular subordinate. The concern is that the "personal" relationship creates the impression of favortism. However, it is generally not considered fraternization if the leader takes (or at very least gives the oportunity) to all to participate. Rule of thumb - if you are doing something that "appears" to exclude all then it may be wrong.

The whole issue is really a giant gray area. Sexual/romantic relations tend to be a bit more clear-cut and hence are most often associated with fraternization.

 

[Vargr]

Since I'm always looking for good military sci-fi...what is this show you're watching?

And yes, spinal weapons are always a good thing - is this some Robotech or Yamato iteration you are watching?

Something more recent than that. It's a 2005 13ep Anime series called Starship Operators, adapted from a still-running manga.

Some info here and here.

Apparently the first 3 episodes are available on YouTube. But be warned, its the English dub.
The image quality isn't the best either.

I had my doubts about the series at first because it seemed to have too much eye-candy for my taste (I think if you want to appeal to the male demographic, horny teens excluded, you are better off using strong and inspiring male characters rather than cute chicks) but I have been pleasantly surprised.

The premisse might sound silly but its something you could pull off in Traveller. : The crew of battleship from an independent planet conquered by a small space polity decides to buy their vessel, and keep up the fight on their own. To get the cash they need for the purchase and maintain the ship they sign a deal granting TAS exclusive broadcast rights of everything they do

Although the setting is quite different (there's a quantum-based comm system that allows near-instant communication everywhere in charted space) some things remind me of Traveller: Jumps affected by gravity fields, ship defense systems that diffuse lasers, Zero-g firearms recoil, sensors that detect enemy ships hours before they can get to encounter distance, etc.


Some very good answers on this thread, folks. I guess bottom line is there's good practical reason to avoid romantic fraternization in military contexts, but in the end we're all human.

Certainly, exploring this for dramatic tension in a work of fiction is a good idea. Sadly, it often gets taken too far. It wouldn't help if authors actually bothered to do some research and realize they either need to tone it down a little, present the consequences of such actions if they do not, or have a valid reason why the usual consequences won't occur.

Starship Operators has addressed this, in my opinion. The crew of the Amaterasu has no military hierarchy above the Captain to answer to; and there's no "internal affairs" department. People coming clean about their feelings seems to happen only after the first casualties take place and the (unexperienced) crew realizes not all might survive this.

I'm on the middle of episode 10 right now. Apparently a vacc-suit boarding action is taking place while the ship is moored at highport.

 

[sabredog]

Most excellent - it's available on Netflix and I'll have the first disk this weekend! Thanks for the referral!

As to the cute girl and slightly less than masculine ideal (or idealized) in guys in manga and anime - it's a Japanese thing. The guys want "fan service" with lots of cute girls with all that might entail, and the girls want to watch guys who are more feminine and "pretty". Lots of drifting flowers, doe-eyes, and wind blown hair. It's own target demographic is mainly consisting of tween to early teen girls. And somewhere in the middle they all fly giant robots and blast aliens while looking and talking like they are in High School.

If you haven't already been there and want to look up more about anime, casting some illumination on it's stranger corners, and upcoming releases in the genre you can't go wrong here:
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/

BTW: while it doesn't have spaceships (well, not a lot anyway), if you want to watch a good live-action anime where you will recognize all the paradigms and characterizations you should check out Returner. While some of it has the same wince factor of even some of the better shows, it's all in good fun and the entire movie is a really good sci-fi time-travel story. When you see the ultimate bad guy (he grabs orphans off the street to sell their organs to the Chinese Tongs - now that's a bad guy!) you'll instantly recognize the spiky white hair, gaudy clothes and over the top bad due attitude from every anime you've ever seen. It's great stuff.

 

[rancke]

Adding a little Traveller

IMTU the Imperial organizations all have the same blanket rule: "Interpersonal relations that are liable to be detrimental to the efficiency of the unit are forbidden." It is then up to the CO to decide where the line goes, although the "up and down the chain of command" is practically always on the wrong side of the line. Note that 'interpersonal relations' can include everything from sexual relations through family relations to blood brotherhood and even childhood friendships. The key point is whether they're 'liable to be detrimental to efficiency'. If something bad does happen, the CO is usually held responsible, as it was his job to prevent such.


Hans

 

[Vargr]

Most excellent - it's available on Netflix and I'll have the first disk this weekend! Thanks for the referral!

Happy to help.

As to the cute girl and slightly less than masculine ideal (or idealized) in guys in manga and anime - it's a Japanese thing.

I don't think its strickly a Japanese thing, the obsession with cutesy female youth and the "feminization of the male" are alive and well in the West. I guess they are just more pronounced over there.

On the other hand, they still have Cobra, Golgo 13 and other Seinen male icons. I guess every cloud has a silver lining.

Lots of drifting flowers, doe-eyes, and wind blown hair.

I'm a sucker for classical shojo. In the oldies at least, it is slightly more realistic; the uber-sensitive and innocent girl isn't piloting the mecha, she's back home praying to the family ancestors for the safe return of the hotshot pilot she loves.

It's own target demographic is mainly consisting of tween to early teen girls. And somewhere in the middle they all fly giant robots and blast aliens while looking and talking like they are in High School.

I am expecting this to change. It seems to have changed every decade or so thus far, and those teen girls aren't getting any younger. Of course, the trend that follows might be even more tilted in that direction...who knows?

If you haven't already been there and want to look up more about anime, casting some illumination on it's stranger corners, and upcoming releases in the genre you can't go wrong here:
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/

You're preaching to the choir sabredog! Anime News Nina and me are old friends.

BTW: while it doesn't have spaceships (well, not a lot anyway), if you want to watch a good live-action anime where you will recognize all the paradigms and characterizations you should check out Returner.

I've looked at the trailer. Seemed like your standard-fare SF shooty action movie. I'm a bit weary of time-travel plots. Is this something you'd truly recommend? Or more of a guilty pleasure?

And was that a transformable jumbo jet I saw? o:


And speaking of Live-Action Anime, I take you heard about the Space Battleship Yamato movie that is coming out on December 1st?

Here's a 30sec teaser in case you haven't seen it.

Star Blazers is such fondly-remembered hit in the west they'd be fools not to release this baby over here!

 

[sabredog]

Yup, a transformed 747, along with a Harrier or two. Invading aliens camouflaging themselves to infiltrate Earth's defenses. Yeah, yeah, nothing is new under the anime sun. Returner is both a good live-action anime film, and a guilty pleasure for me since it has all the corny dialogue and action of the same. But...when you watch it with that in mind the movie is actually really good in a lot of ways - including the time-travel paradox resolution in the end. I recommend at least trying it once.

As for the Yamato movie - oh yes..I can't wait. It looks perfect, right down to the captain and his beard. Next we need a live action Robotech and Macross!

 

[aramis]

Live Action Robotech is filming. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1103173/

 

[kafka47]

I adopt the mentality that the Israeli army does in 2010 (for as you know Israel has the most integrated army). It goes beyond a don't see, don't ask policy. As faternization is strictly forbidden...however there are condom dispensers in every washroom in the integrated barracks.