• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.

Running 2300AD using Traveller

robject

SOC-14 10K
Admin Award
Marquis
2320AD's achievement -- 2300AD via Traveller20 -- has got me intrigued.

How would I modify Classic Traveller or MegaTraveller (or Mongoose Traveller for that matter) to run a 2300-like game?

General Tech Differences
  • General - TL 9-11
  • Occasional - TL 12
  • Medical and Computers - TL 14

Weapons
Looks pretty standard fare for Traveller, except 2300AD has nice variety and color.

Armor
Again, looks more colorful and varied than Traveller.

Starship Differences
  • Stutterwarp instead of jump drive.
  • Something like HEPlaR instead of m-drive.
  • Different ship classification system.

Aliens
  • Kafers
  • Pentapods
  • Xiang
  • Little Guys
  • (Aquilans)
  • Eber
  • Klaxun
  • Sung
  • Ylii (and their bewildering setup)
 
Umm, I really can't comment much on this. :| But 2300 is mostly about setting and some tech differences. I'd go as far as TL12 for weapons (gauss rifles and plasma guns). Stutterwarp drives are the main difference. Thrusters work much like HePLaR drives, yes, and could be modeled that way. And now I'm going to shut up.
 
David Nilsen stated in an interview in the early 1990's that they intended to do a TNE version of 2300, hence the inclusion of stutterwarp in FF&S. He stated the TL Cap was TL-12.

2300 is closest to MT, since both used variants of the DGP task system.
 
Hmm...

2320AD as a mongoose Traveller supplement...

Hunter owns 2320AD. I cannot simply give it to someone else. Even if he lost the rights to the IP, he would still own 2320AD, the manuscript. Someone would have to not just get the rights to 2320AD, but actually purchase the manuscript from Hunter.

2300AD, however, is another matter...
 
As a rule, 2300 is "TL12 with some holes in it."

The general feel of 2300 is ironically a lot more technological than Traveller which is usually higher tech.

The biggest difference is actually not Jump Drive to Stutterwarp. Converting standard Traveller to Stutterwarp isn't really hard to do - it requires some jigging around with star maps, obviously, but tbh, that's not hard to do. The side effect is that intrasystem travel is actually a lot faster than in standard Traveller.

No, the huge difference is that there is no "anti-gravity" of any kind in 2300.

In standard Traveller, Anti-gravity of some sort starts showing up around TL9 or 10. This doesn't occur in 2300, which has massive cascading effects upon things like the nature of interstellar trade (or for that matter, intrasystem trade). The cost of getting stuff up out of a gravity well is simply prohibitive. Another huge factor is that you don't have "grav plates" inside of your ships to generate gravity either (if you're into hard sci-fi actually this is a bigger blessing than a curse - you don't have to worry about "hey, exactly where do the "grav fields" area of effect end?).

You also don't have Nuclear Damper technology of any kind in 2300, so nukes (or detonation lasers in this case) are still kings of space combat.

"Light Battledress" doesn't exist in 2300, and heavy battledress is really clunky in 2300. Otherwise, it's TL12.
 
Hunter owns 2320AD. I cannot simply give it to someone else. Even if he lost the rights to the IP, he would still own 2320AD, the manuscript. Someone would have to not just get the rights to 2320AD, but actually purchase the manuscript from Hunter.

2300AD, however, is another matter...

Well, there was Traveller: 2300 and 2300 AD, so call it the third edition: 2303 AD. That also side-steps the 2320 issue. (It may also throw away some of your work which would be a shame.)

Use the original rules or make it a universe for MGT or do both, you've got plenty of free time, right? :)
 
You also don't have Nuclear Damper technology of any kind in 2300, so nukes (or detonation lasers in this case) are still kings of space combat.

Not true of det-lasers at all. Any reasonable warship can handle have vast numbers of missiles thrown at it without a drama unless unlucky. The point defences, screens and armour are fairly proof against missiles once we get to Battlegroup actions (although on a single small ship scale, a lucky missile shot can be crippling).

I eventually introduced a couple of house rules after looking into the physics of 2k3 weapons. The first was that a successful armour save converts a penetrating hit into a hull hit (essentially the armour ablated, stopping the shot from penetrating further). The second was Nuke pumped lasers are so high frequency that there is no armour save. These two house rules gave the lasers some teeth.

(Another, more deadly house rule I experimented with was to conduct detection before the movement and launch phase, which meant that missiles launched close enough, within 1 turns flight, avoided point defence fire completely since they were not detected before detonation commitment. It had a profound effect on tactics. Under the existing turn sequence the only sensible thing to do was stack everything and present a single "forest of pikes/ PD lasers", with the alternate rule, pushing out screening vessels, like early Destroyers became a necessity".)
 
Well, there was Traveller: 2300 and 2300 AD, so call it the third edition: 2303 AD. That also side-steps the 2320 issue. (It may also throw away some of your work which would be a shame.)

Use the original rules or make it a universe for MGT or do both, you've got plenty of free time, right? :)

For maybe the next month, then I've got to move my family about 1100km. Sometime after that, though, who knows? Something may present itself.
 
Hunter owns 2320AD. I cannot simply give it to someone else. Even if he lost the rights to the IP, he would still own 2320AD, the manuscript. Someone would have to not just get the rights to 2320AD, but actually purchase the manuscript from Hunter.

2300AD, however, is another matter...

Or you could just do the MJD thing...and do 2400AD. Work in all the curves that we all calmoured for in 2320AD but felt constrained by the overall tone of the original 2300AD...:devil:

Seriously, Robject, I am really surprised you have not done a Near Orbit Traveller. One of the many milieux that Marc has hinted at was the race to Bernard's. For me that has always been 2300AD/2320AD but changed it to the Bernard's subsector just beyond Kafer Space.

As stated above, the best fit would be MT. Although, in one of the issues of Challenge they did map out the 2300AD Core Sector in TNE terms. I have always employed House Rules to paper over the differences as mechanics is not my thing...story is more important.
 
Not true of det-lasers at all. Any reasonable warship can handle have vast numbers of missiles thrown at it without a drama unless unlucky. The point defences, screens and armour are fairly proof against missiles once we get to Battlegroup actions (although on a single small ship scale, a lucky missile shot can be crippling).

Certainly true. I just mean that nobody in 2300 shoots ship-carried lasers at ridiculous ranges like they do in Traveller, no Meson Guns, or spinal mounts for that matter. Indeed, if you play with "straight" Starcruiser*, ship-carried lasers are kinda pointless when you have "Parthian Shot" starships like the Kennedy and Suffren flying around able to outrun most missiles and basically 100% of all starships with lasers/PA on them.




* I wouldn't really recommend using straight Starcruiser due to the generally weird results of the system and that after a few games you simply learn that faster = better. Most of all the ship-construction system was awful. GDW themselves didn't use them which has to tell you something. That seemed to be a tradition with GDW, though. It seems as they didn't use their overcomplicated FFS rules either - which refer to as "For F**ks Sake" to describe my exclamation when I saw the overcomplicated gear construction rules.
 
Certainly true. I just mean that nobody in 2300 shoots ship-carried lasers at ridiculous ranges like they do in Traveller, no Meson Guns, or spinal mounts for that matter. Indeed, if you play with "straight" Starcruiser*, ship-carried lasers are kinda pointless when you have "Parthian Shot" starships like the Kennedy and Suffren flying around able to outrun most missiles and basically 100% of all starships with lasers/PA on them.

True, but turning to outrun missiles is prettymuch the same as breaking contact with the enemy. Take the classic 1st Arcturus, 2 Kennedy's vs an Alpha. The Kennedys can stand off to about 25 hexes (roughly their active detection range against an Alpha), and lob missiles, and can move to dodge any returning missile strikes. This typically lead to them expending their entire ordnance load for very little damage (since the missiles have to get past the Kafers own missiles, the Kafers PD, screens and armour). If they get one of the killing hits (esp. computer), they simply aren't in a position to exploit the Kafers helplessness before his crew repairs the critical.

In fact in that scenario, the best CoA (although not one many people take) is to push immediately to point blank range, since the Kafers missiles are weak (2 7x2 warheads a turn vs 8 10x2's), and he's actually less gunpower than two Kennedy's, which can use their superior speed to declare they're constantly in the Kafers rear arc

* I wouldn't really recommend using straight Starcruiser due to the generally weird results of the system and that after a few games you simply learn that faster = better. Most of all the ship-construction system was awful. GDW themselves didn't use them which has to tell you something. That seemed to be a tradition with GDW, though. It seems as they didn't use their overcomplicated FFS rules either - which refer to as "For F**ks Sake" to describe my exclamation when I saw the overcomplicated gear construction rules.

The ship construction kind of works, they appear to have left large parts of it open to interpretation though. What was damaging was the Kennedy example in NAM, since it didn't follow the stated construction rules that other ships did.

I found 2300 NAM quite maleable to a Travelleresque system: http://www.geocities.com/littlegreenmen.geo/nam2320.htm
 
True, but turning to outrun missiles is prettymuch the same as breaking contact with the enemy. Take the classic 1st Arcturus, 2 Kennedy's vs an Alpha. The Kennedys can stand off to about 25 hexes (roughly their active detection range against an Alpha), and lob missiles, and can move to dodge any returning missile strikes. This typically lead to them expending their entire ordnance load for very little damage (since the missiles have to get past the Kafers own missiles, the Kafers PD, screens and armour). If they get one of the killing hits (esp. computer), they simply aren't in a position to exploit the Kafers helplessness before his crew repairs the critical.

A Kafer Beta is well armored but it's certainly not an Alpha. An Alpha is so well armored it's not worth the time to shoot at them. The times I played that mission, I was pretty much always able to cripple the Beta (at worst) or destroy it with two Kennedy cruisers without taking a single hit (which is a good thing since Kennedy class cruisers have glass jaws). There's a case to be able for closing with the Kafers since their CQ is so awful for like half of the game, but it's so much safer to just exploit the lack of TTAs on Kafer vessels and pound them from afar. But then again, I always felt that GDW made the Kafers pretty poor opponents in general.

The ship construction kind of works, they appear to have left large parts of it open to interpretation though. What was damaging was the Kennedy example in NAM, since it didn't follow the stated construction rules that other ships did.

Try reverse engineering the Bismarck (I think they do it with the Sachsens and Hamburgs as well). The Richelieu should have like 10 pages of hull hits instead of the two provided. The Kafer ships have no technology standard which can be reverse-engineered using the NAM. The weird results I speak of are how armor affects hull hits so you have silliness like single-man fighters with more hull hits than a frigate (the Aconit).
 
A Kafer Beta is well armored but it's certainly not an Alpha. An Alpha is so well armored it's not worth the time to shoot at them. The times I played that mission, I was pretty much always able to cripple the Beta (at worst) or destroy it with two Kennedy cruisers without taking a single hit (which is a good thing since Kennedy class cruisers have glass jaws). There's a case to be able for closing with the Kafers since their CQ is so awful for like half of the game, but it's so much safer to just exploit the lack of TTAs on Kafer vessels and pound them from afar. But then again, I always felt that GDW made the Kafers pretty poor opponents in general.

A Beta is less powerful, but 1st Arcturus was fought by an fresh Improved Alpha with 20x X-Rays and 4 Golfs (you may be thinking of Laodemon, which errata'd the Alpha to a Beta).

The TTA issue was solved in the errata. Kafers use UTES. Sinc no Kafer ship has TTA's listed, I wonder what rules you used (although the phrase "The limited number of fire directors on a Kafer ship make it fairly easy to overload its antimissile defenses and land hits, but the sheer amount of punishment a Kafer ship can take can be very demoralizing." is in conflict there).

However, there are a limited number of laser turrets an IA has to oppose incoming missiles, 6, and on average about 1.6 missiles won't make it past the PD and 20% will miss (assuming 2 Kennedy's stacking, say 3 out of 8 are accounted for). The screens value of 9 will effectively take care of a missile, while the remaining 4 put 40 strikes in. 4 hit surface fixtures, 32 are blocked by the armour and 4 penetrate.

Of the penetrating hits, it's probable one will be a critical. The kicker is, the Kafer's CQ is so low she can't repair them. If lucky, and a computer (or maybe drive) critical develops, then the Terrans have won. If their five volleys fail to produce such a critical, they've lost.

If the Kafers fly their fighters in close defence they'll on average knock down to incoming missiles (an average of ca 2 penetrating hits). If they add their own missiles to defensive fire, they'll knock down ca 50-60% of the incoming strike with each wave (of 2 missiles) they commit (and they can probably throw multiple missile strikes at the incoming missile strike, if the Kennedys are holding open the range). A well run Kafer IAlpha (even with a poor crew, that one is -3/0) can prettymuch absorb the missile strikes of a pair of Kennedys and be largely unharmed unless very unlucky.


Try reverse engineering the Bismarck (I think they do it with the Sachsens and Hamburgs as well). The Richelieu should have like 10 pages of hull hits instead of the two provided. The Kafer ships have no technology standard which can be reverse-engineered using the NAM. The weird results I speak of are how armor affects hull hits so you have silliness like single-man fighters with more hull hits than a frigate (the Aconit).

Ahem. http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/2300/Equipment/SG/Bismarck/Bismarck.htm

(backengineered all three mentioned, only the Hamburg is majorly wrong)
 
Back
Top