Shadow Badge vs. Imperial Warrant

[MCEvans]

If two agents came to a base commander one with a Shadow Badge (SB) and one with an Imperial Warrant (IW). Who has precedence the one with the SB or the one with the IW?

I ask because the description of the power and scope of a SB sounds like an IW but can be in the hands of a PC where as an IW is a rare thing and most likely in the hands of NPCs.

Note: I have posted this question on the Mongoose Forums also.

 

[rancke]

If two agents came to a base commander one with a Shadow Badge (SB) and one with an Imperial Warrant (IW). Who has precedence the one with the SB or the one with the IW?

I ask because the description of the power and scope of a SB sounds like an IW but can be in the hands of a PC where as an IW is a rare thing and most likely in the hands of NPCs.

I don't know what a Shadow Badge is or why whoever issues them couldn't issue warrants instead if the power and scope is similar, but if the holders of two warrants got into a dispute over authority, I would rule that the warrant issued by the highest-ranking authority took precedence. If they were both issued by the same person (e.g. the Emperor), there would be a standing rule that made one take precedence of the other based on the date of issuance. Whether this would be the earliest or the latest warrant must be decided once an for all for any single universe. I could it argue either way (Earliest date: seniority, latest date: freshest instruction).


Hans

 

[MCEvans]

I don't know what a Shadow Badge is or why whoever issues them couldn't issue warrants instead if the power and scope is similar,
-snip-

Hans

Shadow Badge is from Mongoose Book5:Agent pg 61

 

[rancke]

Shadow Badge is from Mongoose Book5:Agent pg 61

Doesn't help; I don't have MgT Book 5:Agent.


Hans

 

[steventirey1985]

Shadow badges can be given out by subsector dukes or higher. As Imperial Warrants only come from the Emperor himself (As far as I know, though I believe an archduke can in some circumstances), then the Warrant should take precedence, as it is coming from the higher-ranked noble.

The Shadow Badge of Humaniti allows its bearer to break any and all laws the agent feels he has to in the course of his duties. Whatever it takes to succeed in his mission, this licence will protect the agent from local and Imperial prosecution. The Shadow Badge is why Imperial spies are feared throughout Charted Space. Imperial spies are empowered to do whatever they must; their missions are of a higher priority than morality and legality.

 

[aramis]

Shadow badges can be given out be subsector dukes or higher. As Imperial Warrants only come from the Emperor himself (As far as I know, though I believe an archduke can in some circumstances), then the Warrant should take precedence, as it is coming from the higher-ranked noble.

IMTU, that's another edict's warrant... IMTU Edict 101 authorizes immunity from local prosecution of all kinds. (The Edict 97 warrants compel the assistance of all citizens, but don't provide immunity for crimes.)

The combination in one person would be someone who was trusted so highly that Only the Emperor can discipline them.

 

[rancke]

Shadow badges can be given out be subsector dukes or higher. As Imperial Warrants only come from the Emperor himself (As far as I know, though I believe an archduke can in some circumstances), then the Warrant should take precedence, as it is coming from the higher-ranked noble.

I'm fairly sure that there is a mention of an Imperial edict that allows for archdukes to issue their own, more limited, warrants. I can't recall where I've seen it, though, so it may be fanon rather than canon. The ability of dukes to issue ducal warrants is not, AFAIK, supported by any canon, but I believe it has been accepted as true for many years. Or maybe it's just me.

The Shadow Badge of Humaniti allows its bearer to break any and all laws the agent feels he has to in the course of his duties. Whatever it takes to succeed in his mission, this licence will protect the agent from local and Imperial prosecution. The Shadow Badge is why Imperial spies are feared throughout Charted Space. Imperial spies are empowered to do whatever they must; their missions are of a higher priority than morality and legality.

<snap> <snap>

Whoops! There goes my belief suspenders.

It's not that I don't believe in Imperial dukes who would sanction the breaking of Imperial law and the violation of treaties with the member worlds. But I don't believe in anyone with any pretense at being an honorable man doing so officially and institutionalized in that way. Also, the degree of oppression it would take to make the high-tech, high-population member worlds swallow something like that is much bigger than how I think the Imperium has been portrayed in canon up till now. YMMV.

Excerpt from Imperial membership treaty boilerplate:

aragraph: 89: The Imperium reserves the right to ignore any and all provisions in this treaty if it feels like it.

aragraph: 90: The subsector duke can use this treaty to wipe his bottom any time he feels like it.​

But putting that aside and assuming for purposes of argument that the proper edicts for the issuance of Shadow Badges do in fact exist:

This is nothing like an Imperial warrant. A warrant delegates the power to do stuff that the Emperor has a legal right to do. It does not allow the holder to violate laws the Emperor has promulgated. A Shadow Badge appears to be the equivalent of that famous "absolution as good as any" from The Three Musketeers by Alexandre Dumas. In the book, Cardinal Richelieu writes a note "It is by my order and for the good of the state that the bearer of this has done what he has done". The note is given to the Cardinal's secret agent, Mylady de Winther, as a "Get out of jail free" note (It, of course, falls into the wrong hands). Mylady's note allowed her to escape punishment (by the French authorities) for crimes she might commit in the Cardinal's service but it didn't allow her to go down to Le Havre and order a fleet to invade England.

Incidentally, a Shadow Badge might protect an Imperial agent from criminal prosecution by anyone in the Imperium, but I don't see how it can provide immunity from other legal systems.

(Also, I think the number of Imperial agents that get captured by member worlds might be on the low side statistically, with a correspondingly high number of agents that just disappear without a trace. Just a suspicion...)


Hans

 

[McPerth]

Shadow badges can be given out be subsector dukes or higher. As Imperial Warrants only come from the Emperor himself (As far as I know, though I believe an archduke can in some circumstances), then the Warrant should take precedence, as it is coming from the higher-ranked noble.

While this makes sense, it also has a problem:

Assume you're in the SM, some monts away from the Emperor (so your warrant is at least that months ago) while just a few weeks from the sector Duke (so my badge is newer). There's a fair chance that the situation on hand is more related to the reason why the Duke game me my badge than the one why the Emepror gave you his warrant (after all, the Emperor gave it to you based on information now months old).

So, if your warrant has priority (as it has been given by a higher autority), it's quite possibl that the action the autorities take is based in older information, and so, less effective.

And also, higher autority doesn't mind direct autority. At least when I served my term in the army, a General could not (at least in theory) game me an order that overruled the ones my Sergeant gave me, as much higher autority as he had, due to direct command rules. Of course, he could give orders (through the command chain) to the Sergeant.

 

[aramis]

The standard Edict 97 Warrant reads something like "Lord Bargle does what he does for the good of the Imperium, and in my stead and name. Render him all assistance. /s/Strephon Alkhalikoi, Emperor."

It's not particularly a time limited instrument. It's a personal instrument, given to someone to Act in the Emperor's stead for an extended period, not a specific event. They're probably issued for a 10 year period.

Note that no one batted an eye at Norris having one, only that his "arrived" AFTER the Emperor died, and was a bearer one. Makes me think that maybe a dozen or so are floating around the Marches, and none of their bearers found Norris objectionable.

It's also worth noting that he relieved Adm Santanocheev during the 5FW... and got away with it, so people knew the Emperor had reason to trust Norris - Norris gets results that work for Strephon. It's that whole "Men, not Laws" philosophy at work.

A trusted man on the scene is not constrained by precedent, and if bending the law achieves the Good of the Imperium, so be it.

A man trusted to ignore local laws (probably including subsector level regulations, since those aren't "Imperial Law" - See JTAS) is different than a man trusted to short circuit the local chain of command. The man who may ignore local law is a diplomat... or an undercover operative. Or one sent to render justice when the subject is being kept from it by local government.

Both have valid purposes, when in trusted hands. Both are also ripe for abuse in the wrong hands.

 

[Vladika]

Imperial spies are empowered to do whatever they must; their missions are of a higher priority than morality and legality.

That sounds like, ......well, that might be political...

 

[rancke]

Assume you're in the SM, some months away from the Emperor (so your warrant is at least that months ago) while just a few weeks from the sector Duke (so my badge is newer). There's a fair chance that the situation on hand is more related to the reason why the Duke game me my badge than the one why the Emepror gave you his warrant (after all, the Emperor gave it to you based on information now months old).

The information the Emperor based his decision to give someone a warrant on was his knowledge of that someone's character and abilities. He trusts him to assess the locally available information and to make decisions that he will approve of. The whole point of a warrant is to give the holder the authority to overrule the local man.

So, if your warrant has priority (as it has been given by a higher autority), it's quite possible that the action the autorities take is based in older information, and so, less effective.

From the description, a Shadow Badge doesn't confer any authority at all; it enables you to escape the legal consequences of your acts. A sort of diplomatic immunity only better, since your own side apparently can't punish you either. But if you are discovered breaking the law, the local law enforcement types are going to stop you no matter how much you wave you badge around. And unless they're confused (admittedly always a possibility), the local Imperial forces are going to help the local law stop you the way the membership treaty obliges them to help.

(Assuming anyone would actually create Shadow Badges, which I do not believe for a minute).


Hans

 

[rancke]

Imperial spies are empowered to do whatever they must; their missions are of a higher priority than morality and legality.

That sounds like, ......well, that might be political...

It sounds like a load of dingoes' kidneys. Not that Imperial authorities could have such an attitude (I can very easily believe that), but that they'd ever admit it publically, let alone provide written evidence for it.


Hans

 

[rancke]

The standard Edict 97 Warrant reads something like "Lord Bargle does what he does for the good of the Imperium, and in my stead and name. Render him all assistance. /s/Strephon Alkhalikoi, Emperor."

The standard unlimited authority warrant might read something like that, but unlimited authority warrants would IMO be exceedingly rare. The standard Imperial warrant would have one or more limitations on who could use it and what they could use it for.

Note that no one batted an eye at Norris having one, only that his "arrived" AFTER the Emperor died, and was a bearer one.

Norris didn't use a fake warrant to make himself archduke. He used a fake grant of nobility to do it.

Makes me think that maybe a dozen or so are floating around the Marches, and none of their bearers found Norris objectionable.

Makes me think most of the subsector dukes supported him and were able to lean on the ones that didn't. The timing is so suspicious that even if the grant had been genuine, Norris would still have needed the solid support of the other dukes to make it stick.

It's also worth noting that he relieved Adm Santanocheev during the 5FW... and got away with it, so people knew the Emperor had reason to trust Norris - Norris gets results that work for Strephon. It's that whole "Men, not Laws" philosophy at work.

Strephon issued an unlimited authority warrant to Norris in 1104. That fact alone would tell people that he trusted him.


Hans

 

[Hyphen]

I'm fairly sure that there is a mention of an Imperial edict that allows for archdukes to issue their own, more limited, warrants. I can't recall where I've seen it, though, so it may be fanon rather than canon. The ability of dukes to issue ducal warrants is not, AFAIK, supported by any canon, but I believe it has been accepted as true for many years. Or maybe it's just me.

See the last paragraph under my Library Data entry Imperial Edit 97:

"This executive order is the enabling act for the use of Imperial Warrants. Unusually obscure for such a wide-ranging and powerful edict, it is nonetheless on file at all Imperial installations. The edict text runs to 34 pages, much of it pure legalese; when distilled down, it proves very direct - assist the bearer of an Imperial Warrant with all the power you can bring to bear.

Only the Emperor has the authority to issue warrants under Imperial Edict 97.

A similar edict, Imperial Edict 3097, provides limited power to the dukes and archdukes of the Imperium to issue similar warrants, although they are limited in their duration and territory."

The first paragraph comes from Adventure 1 and is repeated in Supplement 8.

The line about "Only the Emperor..." and the bit about Archdukes was added in MT's Imperial Encyclopedia - remembering that this was written under the direction of Archduke Norris and thus is "biased or incomplete in certain ways". I'm betting that the "Archduke addendum" is one of these examples. ;-)

The bit about ducal warrants is not canon. I'm betting I took it from the original set of HIWG library data that I cut-and-pasted from when I first cobbled together my LibData site many years ago.

FWIW, anyhow.

 

[djwildstar]

My take on this is:

1) The Shadow Badge is the Traveller equivalent of Agent 007's famous "license to kill". In theory if the holder is caught by law enforcement for doing something illegal, the Imperium will intervene to shield their agent from the consequences.

However, if a secret agent is doing their job correctly, they won't get caught by law enforcement or anyone else. If a secret agent has bungled their assignment, the agent is likely dead. In either case, prosecuting the agent for any laws broken in the process is irrelevant. In the rare instance that the agent is caught by law enforcement, the Imperium will attempt to intervene and prevent the agent from being punished. Exactly how effective this will be is going to depend on exactly who caught the agent and what they are suspected of doing.

2) The Imperial Warrant allows the recipient, subject to any restrictions written into the warrant, to act with the authority of the Emperor.

This would include the ability to command the military, direct the imperial bureaucracy, appoint or dismiss Imperial officials, confer knighthoods or patents of nobility and so on. I bet that if you go into the legalese of Edict 97, there are key restrictions on this authority, including a restriction on using the power of the warrant to grant additional warrants, elevate anyone to a rank higher than the recipient of the warrant, and possibly geographic and time-based limitations.

In the hypothetical that started this thread, the shadow badge confers no authority, so the commander of an Imperial military base need not follow any instructions given by the agent. The commander may (at his or her discretion) take whatever action is necessary based on the agent's information, their assessment of the situation, and orders from higher up the chain of command. This action might include aiding the agent, locking the agent up and informing the appropriate agency to pick up their sorry excuse for a secret agent, or anything in between.

The Imperial Warrant confers authority, so if the holder of a warrant gives the commander of an Imperial military base a lawful order, the base commander must carry out that order to the extent of their ability to do so. I feel that the authority of the Warrant implies a certain ability to bypass off-world portions of the chain of command: if the warrant-holder is here in person, and the next higher level of the chain of command isn't, then an order issued right now, by the warrant-holder should take precedence.

 

[Vargas]

I had never read that section of Agent before; I personally found the four forms of credentials to be a bit much for my tastes.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

In the hypothetical that started this thread, the shadow badge confers no authority, so the commander of an Imperial military base need not follow any instructions given by the agent. The commander may (at his or her discretion) take whatever action is necessary based on the agent's information, their assessment of the situation, and orders from higher up the chain of command....

The Imperial Warrant confers authority, so if the holder of a warrant gives the commander of an Imperial military base a lawful order, the base commander must carry out that order to the extent of their ability to do so.

This seems a very good distinction.

1) The Shadow Badge is the Traveller equivalent of Agent 007's famous "license to kill". In theory if the holder is caught by law enforcement for doing something illegal, the Imperium will intervene to shield their agent from the consequences.

Except in Mission: Impossible and James Bond, if you screw up, they disavow all knowledge of you. Seriously, if an agent screws up and, say, kills 1,000 people because he shoots down the bad guy's ship and it lands on a local sporting event... do you really think the 3I is going to come pull his bacon out of the fire? Heck no. They're going to look around and say, "What agent? Him? He doesn't work for us." There's a reason agencies/governments use secret agents - they don't want anyone to know they were involved (unless things turn out really, really well).

If you issue a "badge" to a non-secret agent, it would be to essentially override local authorities. Sort of like a federal US agent is immune to prosecution for most state crimes when he is in the execution of his duties (local cops generally are too, for that matter). If he runs a red light chasing a federal fugitive, he's supposed to be let off on that charge. If he shoots someone in cold blood, because they keyed his car... not so much. Even in the 3I, I can't imagine someone giving a non-secret agent carte blanche to willy-nilly break laws without also giving him the same power as an Imperial Warrant.

And, since you mentioned badges.... To back up my position, I give you "the Federales don't need no badges".

 

[simonh]

Except in Mission: Impossible and James Bond, if you screw up, they disavow all knowledge of you.

Agreed, the license to kill just means if you kill someone in the performance of your duties, M won't have you prosecuted. My take is that it does not necessarily even mean that, if you're caught by the British police killing someone and they prosecute you, M will do a single thing to help you. He'd help cover it up if he could, sure, but if he can't then its your own fault for getting caught.

Now I can understand a limited version of a Shadow Badge that adds up to the same thing as a LTK as discussed above. It's never meant to be used publicly, but just to identify that yes this agent is the real deal and should be let off by local authorities for minor infractions and such. After all 007 does get assistance and get allowed to pass without arrest from local authorities fom time to time.

Simon Hibbs

 

[pennshome723]

Wouldn't it be more like a Local Police officer , over a State Trooper, or a FBI agent / US Marshal.

All have their Zones of Control, and they all over-lap each other. They all work together, but each has a slightly different focus and duty.