T20 and what annoys me in it (and that's IMO)

[FrancoisUldry]

First thing, I like T20 and I am running a game.

I am simply annoyed at the fact the T20 is not D20 Modern friendly at all. All that is done though "dedicated" classes could be done better IMO through basic classes (the D20 modern ones as the smart, strong etc ) and then with lots of prestige classes for really specialized characters.

Instead we have one size fit all service classes that you can customize a bit but really hard to toy with. IE. I need a merchant aslan not born in the imperium, well, I can't do anything.

If it was instead a charismatic hero til level XXX then was able to specialize in a merchant class, with different talent trees, or in a Techie class or in a Pilot class. See what I mean ?

So, I am not complaining, it is just the way it is and I don't have any time to invest into rule designs, but I would have liked it better with something more D20 Modern like. Well, I might be inclined to say, humm in August we'll have WotC takes on SF. Let's hope it is more to my liking

A class sysrtem with talent trees, as D20 Modern is, feels really weird, but the more I think about it the more I feel it is really the smartest way to do D20 in a modern setting.

And as I read before, merging rules on the fly during game sessions is not smart. Players can not know what to expect and plan their actions knowing their characters have a chance to succeed if they don't clearly know the rules we are going to use in advance. I am also doing it with some stuff from D20 Cybernet (which is nice), but again it is not the easiest. Merging a half-broken computer system (ie. T20) and a hacking system designed to do CyberPunk thingies is quite hard (Well, sadly I happen to have a computer guru character)

Hope you don't mind me stating such things
François

 

[Telsor]

Fair call, but your problem isn't with T20, but rather with classic traveller.

The classes are taken from classic traveller and you actually have a lot more choice than you did there IIRC.

Not sure which of the other versions had these classes.

 

[Michael Taylor]

Given the CT expansion of classes to the 12 in the Citizens of the Imoerium supplement, that means in CT there were 18 careers to choose from. It seemed then (the 1980s) and still does now, that CT (as well as T20) have a wide range of character types to choose from.

snip:
"Instead we have one size fit all service classes that you can customize a bit but really hard to toy with. IE. I need a merchant aslan not born in the imperium, well, I can't do anything."

??? You can just have an Aslan character and a merchant career. My understanding from T20 is that it is as simple as that.

 

[Michael Taylor]

And the Aslan is in the service of an Aslan merchant line, not an Imperial one, and was born and raised on an Aslan homeworld, not an Imperial one. You may amend the mustering out starship to an Aslan merchant ship and the TAS membership to an Aslan equivalent (like the Cats' Aide Society - CAS) but there seems little else to do to get what you want.

 

[flykiller]

Instead we have one size fit all service classes that you can customize a bit but really hard to toy with. IE. I need a merchant aslan not born in the imperium, well, I can't do anything.

you're the referee. you can do whatever you want. had one CT player want to be a journalist. now there's a career hook that can lead whereever you want it to go, but CT makes no provision for it at all. so I drew up classic CT career tables for it and walked him through. you want an aslan merchant from the heirate, just do it.

 

[Turanil]

Hey François!

If (with such a name) you are a French gamer living in Paris (and reasonably old, for I am an old player), I would be interested to find a group of player for a sci-fi d20 game (be it T20 or d20 Future, or d20 SW...)

Otherwise, as for the thread: You see the game as lacking choice when it comes to designing characters. I would like to know if you think the problem would disappear if there was in fact much more feats available? IMO too many T20 feats are a bonus to two skills, and many special feats of classes are not very original either.
This is the main reason I am working on my own system: more than 200 feats compiled from various OGC sources, with all the d20 modern feats ; then classes are done in way similar to T20 (as number of feats gained), but with (IMO) much more original special class feats (also drawn from many OGC sources). All in all: 15 core classes (with 20 levels), and 15 prestige classes (with 10 levels). Anyway, this is much work (and slow), so it won't be ready before 2005 however.

 

[Turanil]

Ah shit, no edit on this board?

Well, I just noticed for the first time since I come to these boards, that where people live is inscribed at the bottom of the post. So just forgive my question please...

 

[far-trader]

Hi Anduirnal,

Actually there is an edit feature for the posts, its the little icon of a page and pen just above each post. Just click the one above the post you made and wish to edit and it takes you to the form.

As for the where you're from part of the posts, well they depend on the person filling it in, and being truthful I note many citizens not filling it in or being vague and a few doing it "in character".

Anyway no harm no foul, it may even catch a fellow Parisian's notice and lead to a game. Have seen the Recruiting forum on the boards here? You could post a notice there too.

 

[Falkayn]

Originally posted by Fu:
I am simply annoyed at the fact the T20 is not D20 Modern friendly at all. All that is done though "dedicated" classes could be done better IMO through basic classes (the D20 modern ones as the smart, strong etc ) and then with lots of prestige classes for really specialized characters.

François,

Welcome!

Your annoyance is probably due as much to the timing of the T20 release as anything else. IIRC, the T20 game came out way ahead of d20 Modern.

There is also some truth in the fact that it would have been much further away from CT, but I think it has been pretty well established that T20 was mainly intended to attract existing d20 players to Traveller and not vice versa.

Personally, I think that Wizards will probably have had a good hard look at T20 before they release d20 Future. It will be interesting to see what bits are similar, and what has been inherited from d20 Modern.

 

[Drakon]

I kinda wish we could just dispense with the class system altogether. Junk it. You got a set amount of experience points, trade them in for a feat, skill upgrade, stuff like that. Levels and classes really don't mean a whole lot on the game level, (How many D&D players introduce themselves in game as a 7 level ranger/9 level fighter???) Its metagaming, and while I can see the point in a lot of it, its still metagaming that I prefer hiding in the background a lot more.

You want a merchant, get a job as a merchant, which really means getting a merchant ship and flying it. What you do determines your class, your profession, and in turn determines your skills, feats and what not.

 

[Drakon]

Originally posted by Falkayn:
Personally, I think that Wizards will probably have had a good hard look at T20 before they release d20 Future. It will be interesting to see what bits are similar, and what has been inherited from d20 Modern.

If they are smart, they will. And I think they are pretty smart. Hunter and the rest did a great job on it.

 

[Flynn]

I'm eagerly looking forward to seeing how much influence T20 and Traveller as a whole will have on d20 Future.

-Flynn

 

[clementk]

Originally posted by Drakon:
I kinda wish we could just dispense with the class system altogether. Junk it. You got a set amount of experience points, trade them in for a feat, skill upgrade, stuff like that.

Mutants & Masterminds does this quite nicely. I've done a sample conversion from T20 using T20's skills, feats, etc. and the points matched the equivalent "power level" almost exactly.

BESMd20's free SRD or the book also can be used for this if you use only the adventurer class or tweak BESMd20 slightly.

The "leveling up" factor can be modified easily as well to something more natural and more similar to say MT or T4 or for that matter Omega World ^_^ .

Having said tht I still like some sort of randomness esp. in Prior History.

Casey

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Casey:


<snip>

The "leveling up" factor can be modified easily as well to something more natural and more similar to say MT or T4 or for that matter Omega World ^_^ .

<snip>

Casey

Oooh, Omeaga World . . . Black Ray guns, Torc Grenades, and Mutations, plus Arks, Garks, and Deathbots, lots of cool stuff . . .

 

[clementk]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
Oooh, Omeaga World . . . Black Ray guns, Torc Grenades, and Mutations, plus Arks, Garks, and Deathbots, lots of cool stuff . . .

^_^ and also just one class and holding back skill points and feat selections until after use in a session. Too bad it's closed content due to being published in Dungeon/Polyhedron. The author does have some material for it on his site though.

Casey

 

[Psion]

Originally posted by Fu:
Hope you don't mind me stating such things

As long as you don't mind if I disagree.

d20 modern is nice and all -- it's generic and flexible. I'm even using it myself right now.

But there is something to be said for systems with more specicialized classes like D20 Traveller and Spycraft.

Even d20 modern recongizes this need by making advanced classes with a more crafted nature available at early (4th) level.

The one lesson I think T20 cound take away from d20 modern is to give class abilities or feats at EVERY level.

 

[slyen2002]

you can do that you know.

that is if your the ref.

and if you don't get why just ask...

 

[Psion]

Oy. Am I honesttly being lectured on Ref empowerement? I dare say you know not to who you speak.

Yes, I know I could do that. But I am talking here about what the system could use, not what I could use.

I could do that, but would have to face the consequences. If I wanted to be consistent, I'd also have to add feats to NPCs or knock off their levels in any published material, for example.

 

[savage]

Nice "constructive" topic.

I run a T20 game in the TNE setting. My background was CT, MT, and TNE (mostly CT) but felt it was time to go with the latest, greatest, supported version. And its easier to attract D20 players to a D20 game. I purchased D20 modern because the T20 book really wasn't clear for new D20 refs.

The T20 Feats just haven't worked well for me. I made several home rules to give players their feats quicker. My players (some x-military) felt they could obtain several of the feats after exiting boot camp or the academy. Not so slowly.

I'm not a big fan of D20 XP. Seems to me that the
old Traveller zero-progression is a bit more realistic. Otherwise, get training if you want a
new skill or roll after several months on a skill
your using to see if its improved.

As far as hindsight, I like TTB but think LBB would've been easier to work with as a ref. Durin g a game things get a bit lost in The Traveller Handbook.

Savage

 

[Psion]

Okay, time for one thing that bugs me.

Zero rank skills

Yes, I know it was in CT and MT. But IME, it really isn't needed now. The scale of skills is more than double. So do we REALLY need a zero rank designation in addition to a one rank? It just creates an exception you have to remember that has little practical effect.

So in my game, zero rank skills are out the window. When you get a freebie skill, it is always one rank, regardless of whether it is an "untrained okay" skill or not.