Tech Levels & Jump Drive rather screwed

[christopher.boote]

I've posted this on the mongoose forum, but i thought I'd see if anyone here has any thoughts

Mongoose Traveller says that;
a B drive can produce jump 2 in a 200 ton hull
and
a C drive can produce jump 3 in a 200 ton hull
and
both will produce jump 1 in a 400 ton hull

But Jump 3 is supposed to be discovered at a higher tech level than jump 2 - hence the whole reason for the Terrans whupping the Vilani

Jump 6 is supposed to be TL15 - yet a C drive will give jump 6 in a 100 ton hull

It's all very inconsistent

 

[rancke]

I've posted this on the mongoose forum, but i thought I'd see if anyone here has any thoughts

Mongoose Traveller says that;
a B drive can produce jump 2 in a 200 ton hull
and
a C drive can produce jump 3 in a 200 ton hull
and
both will produce jump 1 in a 400 ton hull

But Jump 3 is supposed to be discovered at a higher tech level than jump 2 - hence the whole reason for the Terrans whupping the Vilani

Jump 6 is supposed to be TL15 - yet a C drive will give jump 6 in a 100 ton hull

It's all very inconsistent

From what you say, MGT ship design must be based on Book 2, the first ever Traveller ship design system. This system has the very impressive quality of being extremely easy to use. Also, a number of designs were published, some of them with deck plans, before High Guard (the next ship design system) was published. So GDW decided to 'grandfather' Book 2 designs by allowing them to remain official, despite that fact that HG was incompatible with Book 2. As a result, none of those extremely well-known early designs were ever officially redesigned under HG (They were redesigned for MegaTraveller and TNE, but since MT and TNE were themselves incompatible with HG, that would be no help for a new company).

IMO it would have been pretty easy to write a revision of Book 2 that was compatible with HG, but apparently Mongoose decided to take the easy way out. I may be doing them an injustice, but I'd be prepared to bet that their High Guard is just as incompatible with their basic design system as HG was with Book 2.

Anyway, unless Mongoose one day decides they want to eliminate this discrepancy, there's really nothing anyone can do except ignore it. After all, who cares about consistency?


Hans

 

[Zparkz]

As I don't have book 2 or really read HG I don't know if this explanation solves the problem.
A jump drive won't jump a craft longer just because it is fitted to a smaller craft. It has been designed to jump X and not Y. In game it is easier to make components based on capability and ship size. However, IRL the same capability or better won't be true if the same component is installed into a different craft of a different size/mass/whatever.

 

[aramis]

Mongoose's "fix" is on the software page. The Jx software has the requisite TL.

 

[CosmicGamer]

I've posted this on the mongoose forum, but i thought I'd see if anyone here has any thoughts

Mongoose Traveller says that;
a B drive can produce jump 2 in a 200 ton hull
and
a C drive can produce jump 3 in a 200 ton hull
and
both will produce jump 1 in a 400 ton hull

But Jump 3 is supposed to be discovered at a higher tech level than jump 2 - hence the whole reason for the Terrans whupping the Vilani

Jump 6 is supposed to be TL15 - yet a C drive will give jump 6 in a 100 ton hull

It's all very inconsistent

I'm confused as to how this is inconsistent. Jump 3 is supposed to be discovered at a higher tech level than jump 2 is not the same as C drives being discovered at a higher tech level than B drives.

Not sure how to explain it, but I'll try.
1) One possibility is that the drives are general class descriptions but different drives within the class can have different capabilities.

Classes of jump drives [A, B, C...]
Classes of automobile engines [4 cylinder, 6 cylinder, 8 cylinder]

A 8 cylinder NASCAR engine is quite different from a 8 cylinder engine in a pickup truck. So too, could the C drive in a jump 6 ship be different from the C drive in a jump 3 ship.

2) There is more to making a ship jump than just the drive.
TL 5, early 8 cylinder automobiles got very poor gas mileage and poor power and speed too.
TL 7 with turbo chargers, fuel injection and whatever else, increase gas mileage and power.


The book repeatedly says potential. Maybe all drives can't reach the full potential.

Perhaps you need to ask the shipyard what tech level the drive is?
Engineer shakes his head at the fancy business man using a drive potential table to try and design a jump six ship. "Ya silly goose, where do ya think ya are?" Takes the the table from the mans hand looks at it and laughs. "This ain't gonna do ya no good because we ain't no egghead high stellar facility with the tech to give ya the max potential listed. Any ship built here will only give ya jump 2 at best."

 

[Klaus]

IMO it would have been pretty easy to write a revision of Book 2 that was compatible with HG, but apparently Mongoose decided to take the easy way out. I may be doing them an injustice, but I'd be prepared to bet that their High Guard is just as incompatible with their basic design system as HG was with Book 2.

Nope. MGT HG is fully compatible with the basic design in TMB. Basic goes up to 2000 tons, HG is 2000+. All the drives scale pretty well. There is a discrepancy when we get to gravitic M-drives for the less than 100 ton range (they are bigger than an equivalent drive from the main drive table, but for some reason the reaction drives are fairly close in size), but I can ignore that as it still makes boats and fighters more useful than they've ever been before.

As for the OP - it's pretty simple. Jump distance is a function of tech level, how much ship can be jumped is about engine size. A class C jump drive made at TL11 cannot do jump 3, even on a 200 ton design. Would be pointless and expensive putting one on that design - a B would give the same performance. However, at TL12 that C drive now allows a jump 3, given enough fuel.

 

[rancke]

Nope. MGT HG is fully compatible with the basic design in TMB. Basic goes up to 2000 tons, HG is 2000+. All the drives scale pretty well.

So they adapted HG to fit with Book 2. Interesting. I stand corrected.


Hans

 

[far-trader]

...Jump 6 is supposed to be TL15 - yet a C drive will give jump 6 in a 100 ton hull

Except that like CT you can't actually build it

There is not enough hull volume, even with Mongoose's changes (smaller bridge, no computer tonnage, less fuel for power plants) you still can't build a legal 100ton J6 ship. You'll be 6tons over with just the mechanical requirements. Never mind sensors worth a darn and somewhere for the crew.

Even if you could fit it in you still need a model/5bis (TL13) or model/6 (TL14) to run the jump program based on the ratings.

I will grant you can as you note build a 100ton J2* or better ship at TL9. I don't see that as a problem. Some do. There was a discussion touching on this here on CotI recently you may find interesting:

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=20023

* excepting as aramis notes the TL requirement for the software (a lame "fix" imo, it feels "last minute" cover up of the issue you note)

 

[far-trader]

Glancing at it again...

...is there even a TL associated with the drive letters?

CT did, but it was elsewhere in the rules. Did Mongoose likewise hide the TL chart separate from the design table? Or did Mongoose not even bother with tying any TL to the drive letters?

 

[CosmicGamer]

Did Mongoose likewise hide the TL chart separate from the design table?

I don't know what TL chart you speak of from previous versions. The Mongoose Core Rulebook has a unhidden section labeled 'Technology Levels' on page 4 and it includes a very brief description of TL0 to TL15, including associating jump travel distance (not drives) with a TL.

Or did Mongoose not even bother with tying any TL to the drive letters?

not even bother? I can not speak as to the intent of Mongoose and I don't believe speculating will shed any light on this matter. On page 108, the table 'Performance by Hull Volume' or also identified as 'Drive Potential Table' lists hull sizes across the top and drive letters down the left side with the maximum jump potential contained within the table. TL is not included. I don't see any reason why it should be included in this table.

 

[far-trader]

I don't know what TL chart you speak of from previous versions.

In CT (the only other version to use a drive letter model*) there was a Tech chart (describing worlds in LBB3 rather than with the ship design in LBB2) that showed the breaks by drive letters. The lower letters (A-D) were TL9 and the higher letters (V+) topped out at TL15. These weren't Jump limit breaks, just drive letter breaks. The Jump to TL relationship didn't come until High Guard in CT.

Looking through the Core Book there is no TL associated with the drive letters. That is a bit of a glaring omission.

The Mongoose Core Rulebook has a unhidden section labeled 'Technology Levels' on page 4 and it includes a very brief description of TL0 to TL15, including associating jump travel distance (not drives) with a TL.

Yes, and ONLY jump drives. Not power plants. Not maneuver drives.

not even bother? I can not speak as to the intent of Mongoose and I don't believe speculating will shed any light on this matter. On page 108, the table 'Performance by Hull Volume' or also identified as 'Drive Potential Table' lists hull sizes across the top and drive letters down the left side with the maximum jump potential contained within the table. TL is not included. I don't see any reason why it should be included in this table.

But that table is not JUST jump drives. It's also power plants and maneuver drives.

The reason is to know what TL one can build a spaceship at in Mongoose Traveller. As it stands now one might say that we can build power plants and maneuver drives at TL0. Ridiculous of course and other requirements may factor in, such as TL7 for a model/1 computer, though I don't think a computer is required in the Core Rules(1). So what is a reasonable TL for the drives? Is it the same for all drive letters? This is missing info. Errata. It needs to be addressed.

* EDIT - actually there might have been another come to think, I'm not sure, T4 maybe?

(1) EDIT - I suppose it is. I was recalling that Maneuver-0 didn't require any rating points and thinking "so I don't need a computer) but on a second look it the interpretation might be that it is part of the comptuer so the computer is required to get the Maneuver-0 program.

 

[aramis]

Glancing at it again...

...is there even a TL associated with the drive letters?

CT did, but it was elsewhere in the rules. Did Mongoose likewise hide the TL chart separate from the design table? Or did Mongoose not even bother with tying any TL to the drive letters?

Nope. Mongoose deleted that linkage. On purpose, based upon the response I got during playtest.

 

[far-trader]

Interesting. In anticipation of their High Guard rules perhaps. Maybe there is a minimum TL for maneuver and power plants mentioned therein?

 

[CosmicGamer]

In CT (the only other version to use a drive letter model*) there was a Tech chart (describing worlds in LBB3 rather than with the ship design in LBB2) that showed the breaks by drive letters. The lower letters (A-D) were TL9 and the higher letters (V+) topped out at TL15. These weren't Jump limit breaks, just drive letter breaks. The Jump to TL relationship didn't come until High Guard in CT.

Mongoose is not CT. I have absolutely no idea if the drive letters in CT mean the same in Mongoose.

Looking through the Core Book there is no TL associated with the drive letters.

That is a bit of a glaring omission.

Your eyesight is better than mine. I don't see it. Does it take different TL to make a 8 cyl engine than a 6 cyl engine, a 3500 Watt portable generator vs a 8000 Watt?

Personaly, I don't see any reason the same technology that produces a Jump one C drive for a 600t hull can't make a larger drive with the exact same technology such as a jump one F jump drive for a 1000 ton hull.

Being able to make a Jump 3 C drive for a 200t hull but not a jump 1 F jump drive for a 1000 ton hull seams a little sillier to me.

You are correct, many things are not defined as to the tech level but much is implied.

But that table is not JUST jump drives. It's also power plants and maneuver drives.

Yes, it is JUST jump drives on that table. Why would power plants and maneuver drives be on a table listing the potential maximum jump capability of jump drives based on hull size?

The reason is to know what TL one can build a spaceship at in Mongoose Traveller. As it stands now one might say that we can build power plants and maneuver drives at TL0. Ridiculous of course and other requirements may factor in, such as TL7 for a model/1 computer, though I don't think a computer is required in the Core Rules. So what is a reasonable TL for the drives? Is it the same for all drive letters? This is missing info. Errata. It needs to be addressed.

To me, it is not ridiculous or Errata or missing. Different sizes of drives and power plants can all be available at the same TL because the only difference is the size and amount of resources, not the technological principles. Also as mentioned above, certain things can be deduced. No, power plants and maneuver drives are not available at TL0. Neither is a light bulb, or the ability to make an automobile even though these are not mentioned either.

What is a reasonable TL? Use the technology is it based on.
TL3 = steam power = light bulb? or not till TL4 when the radio is available?
TL5 = Internal combustion = automobile (although you might have a steam powered car at TL3)
TL6 = Fission power
TL8 = Fusion power
TL9 = Gravity manipulation

Ships were built to travel between planets before jump travel so I would think anyone that can build a jump drive has the technology to build the maneuver drive and power plant.

 

[far-trader]

Mongoose is not CT.

I never said it was. You asked:

I don't know what TL chart you speak of from previous versions.

I supplied the information requested. That's all.

Yes, it is JUST jump drives on that table.

It is not.

Why would power plants and maneuver drives be on a table listing the potential maximum jump capability of jump drives based on hull size?

You need to go over that bit again. The Performance by Hull Volume table applies to selecting jump drives, AND power plants AND maneuver drives. It is NOT JUST a jump drive potential table. How else have you been designing Core Rules maneuver and power plants for ships? Even the alternate tech drives reference the same drive letter table in the same way.

 

[Klaus]

Interesting. In anticipation of their High Guard rules perhaps. Maybe there is a minimum TL for maneuver and power plants mentioned therein?

Yes, there is. J1 at TL9, J2 at TL11, J3 at TL12, etc.

They can be reduced in size at higher tech levels.

1G is TL7, I think, and 6G is TL9 or 10, I think. No TL for power plants, but TL15 ones can have a reduced size, and minimum TL is 6 for fission and 8 for fusion.

 

[CosmicGamer]

I supplied the information requested. That's all.

And thank you for doing so. My stating Mongoose is not CT was not a comment on you, it was a comment on me indicating that there are probably differences and I don't know and understand the way CT does things.

It is just jump drives on that table. Maybe you think there should be more? Maybe we are not talking about the same table? I'm talking about pg 108 of the Mongoose Traveller Core Rulebook.

You need to go over that bit again. The Performance by Hull Volume table applies to selecting jump drives, AND power plants AND maneuver drives. It is NOT JUST a jump drive potential table. How else have you been designing Core Rules maneuver and power plants for ships? Even the alternate tech drives reference the same drive letter table in the same way.

The specific table is just one piece of information regarding jump drives and its information does have application to selecting power plants and maneuver drives however, power plants and maneuver drives are not listed on the table. That information is not left out of the book. It is in additional text and tables.

 

[far-trader]

And thank you for doing so. My stating Mongoose is not CT was not a comment on you, it was a comment on me indicating that there are probably differences and I don't know and understand the way CT does things.

Ah, my apologies I was reading too much into your reply.

It is just jump drives on that table. Maybe you think there should be more? Maybe we are not talking about the same table? I'm talking about pg 108 of the Mongoose Traveller Core Rulebook.

Maybe we're reading the same info differently? Possibly even saying the same things and doing it the same but expressing it differently? Very possibly my interpretation is coloured by previous Traveller rules (while your's isn't) but I don't think so. I am talking about the same table and I'm pretty sure it's not just jump drives. I'll try to explain and maybe you can point out what I'm missing.

Starting on Page 106: bold emphasis and bracketed clarifications (omissions perhaps though I read them as given) are mine:

"The prices and masses of (maneuver and jump) drives and power plants are described on the drives and power plants table. It is important to note from the drive potential table that some (maneuver and jump) drives (and power plants) will not produce results in some tonnages of hulls, as indicated by a dash instead of a number on the table; the drives and power plants table also indicates that some drives will not fit into some hulls."

"Hulls vary in their requirements for drives and power plants based
on tonnage. Any specific drive will be less efficient as the tonnage
it must drive increases. The drive potential table lists 24 standard
drive types, identified by the letters A through Z (omitting I and
O to avoid confusion)...

• For manoeuvre drives, the potential is the Thrust number (Tn),
which is the number of Gs acceleration available.
• For Jump drives, the potential is the Jump number (Jn), or Jump
range in parsecs.

The power plant rating (A-Z) must be at least equal to either the
manoeuvre drive or Jump drive rating, whichever is higher."

The specific table is just one piece of information regarding jump drives and its information does have application to selecting power plants and maneuver drives however, power plants and maneuver drives are not listed on the table. That information is not left out of the book. It is in additional text and tables.

If you're correct I'm still not getting it. The references you mention I see are in reference to using the table to determine not just jump rating but also maneuver rating and power plant rating (though perhaps pointlessly and not directly referenced as a rating).

The table defines the performance of drives by letter for a hull type. For example: A 300ton hull requires a C jump drive for Jump 2, an E maneuver drive for 3G, and an H power plant for power plant rating 5. Though all that is needed is an E power plant and as I understand it and noted Mongoose doesn't seem to do anything with power plant ratings (maybe in HG) that I recall. That may explain some of the choices of wording regarding drives and power plants as well.

But the only way to figure out the maneuver performance of a ship though is from the Drive Potential Table. Isn't it? What other table am I missing?

EDIT: I'm sure "drive potential table" refers to the "PERFORMANCE BY HULL VOLUME" table on page 108 but it could certainly do with an edit to either title the table as such or change the references to "drive potential table" to "PERFORMANCE BY HULL VOLUME"

 

[aramis]

In MGT TMB, p113, the software table

Program__________TL Rating Cost (MCr.) Effect
Manoeuvre/0_______8____0_________Included Allows basic control of ship
Intellect________11___10____1____Allows a ship to understand and obey verbal commands.
Jump Control/1____9____5___0.1___Allows Jumps of up to the specifi ed number. Incorporates astrogation
Jump Control/2___11___10___0.2___software and Jump engine management.
Jump Control/3___12___15___0.3___
Jump Control/4___13___20___0.4___
Jump Control/5___14___25___0.5___
Jump Control/6___15___30___0.6___


Which said, the maneuver program thus limits MDrives to TL8+, since below that, one can not use them.

TMB ≠ TMB+HG; the restrictions in HG are more restrictive than the TMB alone.

and for fun:
Td_ MCr_ Item
100 _2.0 Custom Hull 100Td
_10 _0.5 Bridge
__0 _0.0 Standard Sensors
_20 30.0 JD C
__0 _7.5 Model 4bis
_10 24.0 PP C
_50 _0.0 F-J5
__6 _0.0 F-P6
__4 _0.5 SRx1
=== ==== ====================
100 64.5 Ship
__0 _0.5 Software (J5, M, Lib)
=== ==== ====================
100 65.0 Total

TMB only design for J5 100Td. carries only two weeks fuel. Another MCr7.6 and some 10td drop tanks, and you can have a J6 capable carrying 1j5 Nominal crew is two, double occupancy. Then again, this beast has no maneuver drive...
Dropping to J4:
Td_ MCr_ Item
100 _2.0 Custom Hull 100Td
_10 _0.5 Bridge
__0 _0.0 Standard Sensors
_15 20.0 JD B
__5 12.0 MD C
__0 _7.5 Model 4bis
_10 24.0 PP C
_40 _0.0 F-J5
__6 _0.0 F-P6
__4 _0.5 SRx1
_10 _0.0 Cargo 10Td
=== ==== ====================
100 66.5 Ship
__0 _0.4 Software (J4, M, Lib)
=== ==== ====================
100 66.9 Total

 

[CosmicGamer]

Maybe we're reading the same info differently? Possibly even saying the same things and doing it the same but expressing it differently? I'll try to explain and maybe you can point out what I'm missing.

Maybe your right and I'm wrong? Yes, thats it! Thanks for the detailed description, I have not built a ship in a while and when I referenced the table I was specifically looking for Jump drive info and not paying attention so thats all I saw. Also, I thought you might be referring to a table in CT. Now that you got me to take a closer look, you are right. Sorry for being so adamant about it, but I'm never wrong! :devil:

EDIT: I'm sure "drive potential table" refers to the "PERFORMANCE BY HULL VOLUME" table on page 108 but it could certainly do with an edit to either title the table as such or change the references to "drive potential table" to "PERFORMANCE BY HULL VOLUME"

Agree with you on that too.

However, I still believe that the different drives and power plants don't need to have a variety of tech levels assigned based on size. Using the description of Tech levels, you get a good indication of what tech level the different items can be built at.

Based on Klaus' post on Mongoose High Guard, which i do not have, it sounds like it may describe better how the TL is based on the jump and the maneuver capability, not drive letter and it may be more direct in defining the TL required for certain items.

In MGT TMB, p113, the software table

Program__________TL Rating Cost (MCr.) Effect
Manoeuvre/0_______8____0_________Included Allows basic control of ship

Which said, the maneuver program thus limits MDrives to TL8+, since below that, one can not use them.

IMO, the maneuver program may be TL8, but Maneuver drives are available as soon as there is the technology for ships to fly in space. Based on TL description in the core rulebook and information posted regarding High Guard, there were not so nimble ships maneuvering in space at TL 6.

Side note: I always believed that there is a capability to use 'Manual' controls as a backup to the computer software. Now I can see that only manual control is available at TL6 and 7.