Teleport boarding

[McPerth]

Well when the enemy can teleport commandos directly into your facilities (or maybe even teleport in a nuke) it tends to be a force equalizer.

And exactly how does this affect Space combat?

Remember you need to conserve your momentum in teleportation, and ships at high speed, even a small directional vector difference will make enourmous momentum changes, and those ships are assumed to be evading...

And if the enemy ship has no functioning drives (so you may match the vector) Shuttle or EVA assault would be little less effective as teleporting inside for boarding actions.

 

[mike wightman]

Easily explained with a bit of setting handwavium

Inside a ship there are no noticeable momentum changes, the magic acceleration compensators see to that.

So you are teleporting from a momentum change 0 environment to another momentum change 0 environment.

The trick is to get within teleportation range...

 

[McPerth]

Easily explained with a bit of setting handwavium

Inside a ship there are no noticeable momentum changes, the magic acceleration compensators see to that.

So you are teleporting from a momentum change 0 environment to another momentum change 0 environment.

The trick is to get within teleportation range...

Sorry, but I cannot buy this.

If so, the fact that the curvature of the planet avoids (due to momentum change) teleporting too far (as explained in page 44 CT:LBB3) would be also voided, as neither in this case is there any noticiable momentum.

I'd say that teleport boarding is not posible unless the ships are docked (and even there it can be an advantage, as you can appear anywhere in the enemy ship) and no hole would be need that can warn the defenders about where will you appear, but not enough as to count in the strategic picture, as TL does.

 

[McPerth]

[m;]Previous posts are copied here from this thread, as I believe it can deserve a thread on its own[/m;]

All of this makes me think about the problems in such tepelort boarding.

The first to come to my mind:

Imagine a Zhodani shuttle docks on a crippled (MD and fire control out, life support working) Azhanti to allow its Consular Guard comandos to board it by teleporting.

While, being docked, the momentum of both ships (and so the people on them) will not change (so allowing a safe teleport), the shuttle's gravity is focused towards its deck floor, that, docked to the Azhanti, is perpendicular Azhanti's decks (and so to its gravity).

What will be the effect of this sudden change of gravitational direction on the teleported troops?

As I see it, if they are standing when teleporting, they will appear horizontal in the Azhanti deck where they appear, so falling prone as they arrive...

Thoughts?

 

[mike wightman]

I would have thought they would have used other psionic disciplines to notice the change in orientation and teleport accordingly.

 

[mike wightman]

Sorry, but I cannot buy this.

If so, the fact that the curvature of the planet avoids (due to momentum change) teleporting too far (as explained in page 44 CT:LBB3) would be also voided, as neither in this case is there any noticiable momentum.

Yes , there is. Momentum is mass times velocity, velocity is a vector quantity. Suddenly going from one location on a planet to another will result in a momentum change

 

[McPerth]

I would have thought they would have used other psionic disciplines to notice the change in orientation and teleport accordingly.

So, they will teleport form a prone position in order to arrive standing (and hope they will be perfectly aligned)...

 

[CosmicGamer]

Would you have to be docked if the targets MD is disabled and the ship is drifting on a steady path that could be closely matched?

Regarding the actual "boarding", I don't see it as a problem if we are talking about a single G and typical ships. I'd think someone could go from Zero G and "fall" the complete height of a typical full G passageway without taking damage - especially if they prepared, probably trained and are expecting such as a possibility, and are in protective suits.

Perhaps for those that like to roll for everything, each trooper rolls for disorientation and how long it takes to get into combat formation after teleporting. Perhaps if one wants, this could be something determined by the effect of the teleport roll.

 

[McPerth]

Would you have to be docked if the targets MD is disabled and the ship is drifting on a steady path that could be closely matched?

You're right it would me more or less the same. Docking on it would just be a little safer just in case the ship makes any small direction change (due to superficial explosions, air loss, whatever it be). Not much change in any case.

Regarding the actual "boarding", I don't see it as a problem if we are talking about a single G and typical ships. I'd think someone could go from Zero G and "fall" the complete height of a typical full G passageway without taking damage - especially if they prepared, probably trained and are expecting such as a possibility, and are in protective suits.

I wasn't talking about being hurt, as you say (any such a fall would not be expected to damage any Combat Armor or Battledress equiped troops, that are the ones I'd expect in this kind of actions), just prone and a little disoriented (maybe giving any defender in the zone a free shoot or two if he's quick to react)

Perhaps for those that like to roll for everything, each trooper rolls for disorientation and how long it takes to get into combat formation after teleporting. Perhaps if one wants, this could be something determined by the effect of the teleport roll.

This could be good for player characters (if they are involved on it). Maybe a chained task, (in MgT terms) with the effect of teleport modifying a disorientation avoiding roll (probably Dex or Athletics:Co-ordination based)?

 

[atpollard]

Teleportation was one of those areas in Traveller that always confused me ... not the nuts and bolts of the rules, but the treatment.

Why would a game where ...

• even the narrowest skill, like Gun Combat (Rifle)-1 grants the ability to operate and maintain any bolt-action, lever-action, pump-action or semi-auto rifle from a .22 plinker to a .50 BMG Barret anti-material rifle
• combat is conducted in range bands and 'turns'
• mass and volume are used interchangeably

.... suddenly go all hyper-concerned about conservation of energy (to the extent of worrying about the temperature change related to change in potential energy) when dealing with psionic teleportation?

The 'special' attention dedicated to teleportation doesn't seem to exist anywhere else in the rules ... even FF&S doesn't get THAT detailed.

When a ship jumps through the magic of jump space, it doesn't arrive at the destination with an insane relative velocity due to the relative velocity of the different star systems. Nor does it suddenly burst into flame because of the conversion of potential energy to heat. So what makes Teleportation such a 'special snowflake'* ?

IMTU: I don't want or need the hassle of psionics 99% of the time, so there are no psions. When I want to play a larger than life game (like the current atpollard PbP game), and I allow psioncs ... they just work. Same as jump drives and combat. I will probably NEVER calculate the energy difference by teleporting to a higher or lower elevation, and if a psion ever attempts boarding via teleportation, the only question is "Are they in range?" ... beyond that, it just works through the magic of teleportation.

* [intended as humor, not an attack on anyone or anything]

 

[McPerth]

Teleportation was one of those areas in Traveller that always confused me ... not the nuts and bolts of the rules, but the treatment.

Why would a game where ...

• even the narrowest skill, like Gun Combat (Rifle)-1 grants the ability to operate and maintain any bolt-action, lever-action, pump-action or semi-auto rifle from a .22 plinker to a .50 BMG Barret anti-material rifle
• combat is conducted in range bands and 'turns'
• mass and volume are used interchangeably

.... suddenly go all hyper-concerned about conservation of energy (to the extent of worrying about the temperature change related to change in potential energy) when dealing with psionic teleportation?

The 'special' attention dedicated to teleportation doesn't seem to exist anywhere else in the rules ... even FF&S doesn't get THAT detailed.

When a ship jumps through the magic of jump space, it doesn't arrive at the destination with an insane relative velocity due to the relative velocity of the different star systems. Nor does it suddenly burst into flame because of the conversion of potential energy to heat. So what makes Teleportation such a 'special snowflake'* ?

IMTU: I don't want or need the hassle of psionics 99% of the time, so there are no psions. When I want to play a larger than life game (like the current atpollard PbP game), and I allow psioncs ... they just work. Same as jump drives and combat. I will probably NEVER calculate the energy difference by teleporting to a higher or lower elevation, and if a psion ever attempts boarding via teleportation, the only question is "Are they in range?" ... beyond that, it just works through the magic of teleportation.

* [intended as humor, not an attack on anyone or anything]

Needless to say, I cannot talk for the game writters, but my guess is that it's just a way to avoid abuse.

Due to this limitations, you cannot:

• Make teleport planetary attacks (you must land by more conventional ways), or vice versa
• Board a uncrippled ship from another
• Teleport to the other side of the planet (aside form any range issue). BTW, if you'd allow it, you'd count the range as the planetary arc or in straight line?¹

And even in most fantasy games, when you can teleport by magic (even needing less explanation than psionics), teleporting uses to have limitations and special rules (error margin, intrinsic dangers, etc...)

Note 1:also intended as humor, and to show how avoiding complexity can add it on another way​

 

[kilemall]

Maybe Zho ships would have special teleport rooms that are 'hamster balls' and orient themselves to the target room and G, ships match course and vee, teleport team jumps in with minimal environmental issues.

Perhaps a primary defense is to change the ambient temperature of a target ship from Imperial standard and create those big thermal shocks.

 

[atpollard]

Needless to say, I cannot talk for the game writers, but my guess is that it's just a way to avoid abuse.

Including 'Psionics' and avoiding 'abuse' sounds like a pretty tall order.

As presented, Teleportation reminds me of the old Djinn granting a wish ... sure, you can WISH for anything you want, but you are probably going to GET trouble.

 

[Patron Zero]

Just my unsolicited two-pence but I think there would be one smack-huge of a 'housekeeping' software to compensate into all variances-variables involved in operating a teleportation system.

And sounds like we are speaking of 'beaming in" hard to a target without a receiver 'platform' ready-operational to accept travelers. So allow me to toss in a few factors that may apply.

A vessel could be 'shielded' against unwelcome or unauthorized trespassers by means of a counter-measures that 'scatters' the transporter signal, essentially preventing entry to-exit off persons or objects so targeted.

Whether said coverage could only be maintained inside the hull or possibly extended beyond it might be determined by constraints of power consumption or equipment required to establish said network of protection.

The use of a teleportation device is a double-edged sword, while convenient for casual travel or emergency response-rescue tool it's a Godsend, as a covert insertion-extraction strategy it's the Devil's Music.

 

[esampson]

. . .When a ship jumps through the magic of jump space, it doesn't arrive at the destination with an insane relative velocity due to the relative velocity of the different star systems. Nor does it suddenly burst into flame because of the conversion of potential energy to heat. So what makes Teleportation such a 'special snowflake'* ? . . .

The relative velocity of nearby star systems are not really all that high. Even a jump of 6 parsecs is less then 1 5000^th of the size of the Milky Way galaxy. As a result any star that you can reach is going to be moving in roughly the same direction as it orbits through the galaxy, in an astronomical sense. You will probably have larger velocity differences caused by jumping from a planet travelling in one direction to a planet travelling in the opposite direction as it orbits its own star.

Sure, some of the numbers might look large to us but you need to realize that in just one hour a ship accelerating at 1G will be travelling at over 127,000 kph. Assuming you accelerate directly away from an Earth size planet it will take a little under 4.5 hours for you to reach 100D at that velocity and you will have a velocity of around 560,000 kph. You can add another 213,000 kph from running your manuever drive while in jump space if you really need it (the drive still works, it just works at 1% efficiency. Fortunately you've got an entire 168 hours to run it).

This allows a delta V of around 773,000 kph. Compared to that number Earth's orbital speed of roughly 107,000 kph is fairly sedate.

My assumption is that one of the jobs of the navigator is to try and make sure that all of these numbers 'balance out'. They want to get the ship to arrive at a point roughly 100D out from the destination planet on a vector to intercept the planet in X hours with a relative velocity of 0 while decelerating the entire time (where X is the length of time it would take for the ship to accelerate to/decelerate from 100D from the planet).

Of course because of the vagueness of the actual arrival time some safety margin needs to be built in to that. Add in the fact that the jump path needs to remain clear of 100D of both planets, both stars, and the other planets in the system (as well as charted hazards that exist outside of either system) and the idea of a 'perfect breakout' becomes even more remote.

Still, a major responsibility of the navigator will be to try and minimize the time it takes from arrival to landing and this will probably result in a lot of things that might seem odd to non-spacers, such as ships appearing to fly away from their destination before they jump so that they will arrive in the new system with an efficient vector.

 

[Quint]

As an additional note, I seem to recall from an old... JTAS article..? that Zhodani Commandos also has an attached Clairsentient to scope out the teleport arrival site (I seem to recall the implication that this was needed). Also, and here I might be inventing something, a Telepath to dump the right image into everyone's mind.

The whole process was actually a bit more complicated and also reflected the random nature of CT psionic discipline assignment. All of this also accompanied by much use of Psi-drups because you also couldn't be sure that they had the Psi Strength to t-port the distance without it.

Pretty highly trained *unit* and by all implication incredibly hard to pull off when done in formation. I wouldn't worry about T-porting onto ships, it's simply not a huge issue on the strategic scale - there's not enough Zhodani commando's and it's still hard to get them into range.

I always pretty much ignored the temperature thing, or simply wrote it off as "take 1d6 Endurance" - though I seem to recall that I said that the Commando Battledress compensated for this.

D.

 

[McPerth]

As an additional note, I seem to recall from an old... JTAS article..? that Zhodani Commandos also has an attached Clairsentient to scope out the teleport arrival site (I seem to recall the implication that this was needed). Also, and here I might be inventing something, a Telepath to dump the right image into everyone's mind.

You're not inventing anything here. It's as described in the adventure that appears in CT:Alien Realms: The claivoyant scans the arrival point, it transfers the knowledge telepathically (either directly or through a telepath) to the rest of the team, and so everyone can teleport there, as they have knowledge about destination.

The whole process was actually a bit more complicated and also reflected the random nature of CT psionic discipline assignment. All of this also accompanied by much use of Psi-drups because you also couldn't be sure that they had the Psi Strength to t-port the distance without it.

Psi drugs raise your psi strenght, and so allow you to expend more of them (and so reach farther locations), but they don't allow you to overcome limitations, as knowledge of destination (told about above) or the need to conserve energy and momentum.

Pretty highly trained *unit* and by all implication incredibly hard to pull off when done in formation. I wouldn't worry about T-porting onto ships, it's simply not a huge issue on the strategic scale - there's not enough Zhodani commando's and it's still hard to get them into range.

It's not an issue on strategic scale, but it might well be on PC's scale (either as attackers or as defenders).

I always pretty much ignored the temperature thing, or simply wrote it off as "take 1d6 Endurance" - though I seem to recall that I said that the Commando Battledress compensated for this.

The Zhodani Commando Combat Armor (or Battledress) has temperatura compensators, true, but it can only compensate that much (as internal organs may suffer for either extreme fever or hipotermia, and it will take some time to compensate it on them), so, while it allows to extend a little the potential energy change, it cannot fully forfeit it. IIRC it raised the limit by about 50%.

As I see it, aside from any hits, those extreme temeperature changes (and I understand extreme as more than 1-1.5 degrees Celsius) will incapacite the trooper for a brieff time (perhaps as low as 5-10 minutes) due to tremors and probably light dumbness/disorientation (as one feels when fever is raising or weather is too cold).

 

[Hyphen]

As an additional note, I seem to recall from an old... JTAS article..? that Zhodani Commandos also has an attached Clairsentient to scope out the teleport arrival site (I seem to recall the implication that this was needed). Also, and here I might be inventing something, a Telepath to dump the right image into everyone's mind.

Right on both counts. From the Zhodani Lift Infantry article in JTAS 11.

FWIW, I refereed a PSI-15 teleporting Droyne in the 5FW. He popped between Zho cruisers in orbit around Efate, attached miniature nukes to the outside of a couple of their hulls, then popped away.

(He couldn't get inside; the Zhos run current through their hull grids to prevent that. Degrades their grids faster, but they don't care. Or so I said, anyway - have to keep those damn teleporters in line somehow.)

Some brinkmanship threat tactics later (and two expanding clouds of gas that once were cruisers) forced the remaining Zhos to stand down while they frantically searched their remaining cruisers for more (non-existent) nuclear mines. This allowed the PCs to rescue the remains of the 4518th with a Triad(?)-class freighter and bug out.

All IMTU, of course.

 

[CosmicGamer]

those extreme temeperature changes (and I understand extreme as more than 1-1.5 degrees Celsius) will incapacite the trooper for a brieff time

I'm no science whiz - especially in teleportation science - so I never quite understood the whole temp change thing.

 

[JFGarber]

A vessel could be 'shielded' against unwelcome or unauthorized trespassers by means of a counter-measures that 'scatters' the transporter signal, essentially preventing entry to-exit off persons or objects so targeted.

Perhaps this is an uber-tech starship defense mechanism, to be discussed in that TL 20+ sourcebook that I'd like to see someday.