Thought Experiment-10D

[kilemall]

As a side idle, I was thinking about what it would take to get Traveller to a MMORPG.

One thing that popped up immediately is the 100D limit- no player is going to want to spend hours hauling out to the jump limit, and in an interactive universe everyone needs to be reasonably realtime.

Moving to a 10D limit would work. Then it occurred to me it might be an interesting gedanken for us here.

So what happens if we change the limit from 100D to 10D?

Note- this is about applying the rule to paper-and-play RPGing, not to open the topic of a Traveller MMORPG.

 

[whartung]

As a side idle, I was thinking about what it would take to get Traveller to a MMORPG.

One thing that popped up immediately is the 100D limit- no player is going to want to spend hours hauling out to the jump limit, and in an interactive universe everyone needs to be reasonably realtime.

Moving to a 10D limit would work. Then it occurred to me it might be an interesting gedanken for us here.

So what happens if we change the limit from 100D to 10D?

100D? You think they're going to complain about 100D? Wait until you stick them in to Jump Space for a week!

I've never played Eve so I don't know how long it takes to go from system to system.

All I know is that travel (and by travel, I mean the time for travel) is a key complaint among players. Anything longer than "instantaneous" is met with dread.

"Walking is too slow" Now you can run.

"Running is too slow" Now you can have a horse.

"My horse is too slow" You can have a faster horse.

"My fast horse is too slow" Now you can fly.

"My flying mount is too slow" Now you can fly faster.

"My fast flying mount is too expensive"

"Why do the taxis take so long? Why do I have to wait for a boat? Why aren't there portals <everywhere I want to go>?"

It's an endless litany.

In terms of space travel my favorite has always been the sector jumps in "Star Raiders". You accelerate really fast -- enter hyperspace (for a short time, proportionate to how far you travel -- never more than a few seconds), then reappear in normal space, decelerating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=3_VDM8nC9sM#t=25

 

[kilemall]

No question Whartung, 15 years of MMORPGing has sunk that one in.

I was thinking more in terms of what effect it would have on our more trad RPG world.

 

[flykiller]

merchant ships that operate mostly by jump would have no reason to have more than m1.

police boats would have to respond to incoming or outgoing much more quickly.

incoming hostiles could arrive at less than 1/2 ls out.

 

[lostscout5]

I've been into MMORPG's for a while. It takes a few minuets to travel anywhere in EVE. Unless the systems are right next door to each other.

As for the 100D limit. Most MMO gamers would have a fit if they had to spend any time traveling in system. Now. It used to be different. A lot of the early MMO's {everquest, SWG}had travel times that meant something. Part of how they got away with it were
1. The players hadn't been spoiled yet and
2. They had interesting worlds to explore
A lot of old timers would welcome a game with meaningful exploration on worlds. In space one of the things that helped in SWG with insystem travel were lots of NPC fighters and ships prowling around. Plus open PvP. If you were flagged as active in the galactic civil war, anyone from the other faction could attack you. It forced you to keep watching those scanners.

Another thing that helped was having multi player ships. Some of the larger ships needed to have multiple crew members. At the very least a pilot and two gunners. An engineer or medic were nice to have as well, but unnecessary. The social aspect of traveling relieved any boredom. Sound familiar? One of the problems with travel in EVE is that even the largest dreadnought is a single player ship. You are alone in the cockpit. In SWG you could get up from the pilot seat and hang out with the passengers and crew on board your ship.

And yes, I'm what is known in MMO circles as a bitter SWG vet. I hate SOE to this day! :rant:

 

[Marchand]

If you consider that having info travel by speed of ship is integral to Traveller, then you can't have a Traveller MMO.

Take 2 players with characters at Regina and Terra. You cannot stop them using another app to chat while they play.

It might work if limited to a single system or multiple star system, like Firefly, and you were willing to handwave being able to communicate instantly across planetary system distances (rather than it taking hours as it should by light lag). But then you might as well just have Firefly: the MMORPG.

 

[kilemall]

<sigh> Yes I understand the game does not strictly translate into MMORPRGese.

That wasn't the point of the thread.

The point was effects if we took just the jump limit and changed it to 10D, within the paper/table RPG game, not anything to do with online gaming.

 

[Whipsnade]

The point was effects if we took just the jump limit and changed it to 10D, within the paper/table RPG game...

Near-c rocks aimed through jump space.

How does that particular effect grab you?

 

[aramis]

merchant ships that operate mostly by jump would have no reason to have more than m1.

Worlds with 1.1G to 2G are plenty of reason for some dedicated route runners to have 2G.

police boats would have to respond to incoming or outgoing much more quickly.

But the distance covered is far less and so response times are just under 1/3 what they would be for 100D.

incoming hostiles could arrive at less than 1/2 ls out.

Geosynch on Earth is 22,236 miles altitude, earth is 7,917.5 mi, thus the 3.3 diameter line (remembering that surface is 0.5 diameters)...

10 Diameters is far enough for not interfering with planetary orbital traffic.

 

[mike wightman]

As a side idle, I was thinking about what it would take to get Traveller to a MMORPG.

One thing that popped up immediately is the 100D limit- no player is going to want to spend hours hauling out to the jump limit, and in an interactive universe everyone needs to be reasonably realtime.

Moving to a 10D limit would work. Then it occurred to me it might be an interesting gedanken for us here.

So what happens if we change the limit from 100D to 10D?

No one is going to want any time getting to jump limits or spending time in jump space at all unless there is something to do.

 

[kilemall]

Near-c rocks aimed through jump space.

How does that particular effect grab you?

I don't see how 10D makes that more likely then 100D, other then reducing point defense reaction time from a few seconds to less then a second.

 

[kilemall]

No one is going to want any time getting to jump limits or spending time in jump space at all unless there is something to do.

Ya, got it, NOT talking MMORPG, can we stick to the question?

 

[kilemall]

Worlds with 1.1G to 2G are plenty of reason for some dedicated route runners to have 2G.


But the distance covered is far less and so response times are just under 1/3 what they would be for 100D.


Geosynch on Earth is 22,236 miles altitude, earth is 7,917.5 mi, thus the 3.3 diameter line (remembering that surface is 0.5 diameters)...

10 Diameters is far enough for not interfering with planetary orbital traffic.

I would expect that getting a 3-4G drive would indeed be less of a 'thing'.

Most fleet battles would be near planets, moreso then now.

Depending on sensor rules, a lot more planetary shadow ambushing.

Pirates would have a tougher time operating, I think smugglers would do better though.

 

[Xenon]

I did play EVE, and travel is fast but high risk. it NEEDS to be fast because of the risk- a null-taxi was an interceptor (immune to bubbles) with an align time faster than the system-tick needed to lock a target. speed is life, and autopilot kills (hisec gatecamps do happen).

for traveller, you could make the week in transit part of a minigame. solve issue X before time Y, get a reward! suddenly that travel time is useful, as you deal with a social puzzle minigame for hauling passengers, or use that time for a training minigame to gain xp.

but yeah, travel has to be faster in a video game. somewhere between 15 min minimum and an hour max, for jump space. lets say 30 min to get from here to there. the 100D is a question of drive speed, as well as planet size.

the question, however, is how ship-centric is this game? how much can i play on one planet, if i dont want to go runninga round in a ship? how many 'worlds' can we have in one system? do we have options for people who dont want to use the jump mechanics?

 

[aramis]

I would expect that getting a 3-4G drive would indeed be less of a 'thing'.

Most fleet battles would be near planets, moreso then now.

Depending on sensor rules, a lot more planetary shadow ambushing.

Pirates would have a tougher time operating, I think smugglers would do better though.

3-4G isn't a "Thing" for 100 Diameters, either...
... it's a "thing" for combattants. Higher G generally can dictate whether or not combat occurs, and if so, at what range.

2G is for being able to get into/out-of almost all worlds in canon, plus non-hypersonic gas giant refuels.
1G gets you most worlds.

 

[JimMarn]

I've been playing Everquest since 2004. I like the portal books; however, some players do post in the forums there about how they ran across zones without a mount and without using the portal books. Another name for them is POK books, Plane of Knowledge, which is a hub transit area.

And its run by Daybreak Games, many of the same people. SOE no longer owns EQ nor EQ 2.

Travel times in a Traveller MMO would be a deal breaker for me. I like to solo to, but there is likely something a solo player could do. I had bad experiences with groups in EQ.

But if the groups in Traveller MMO are better, I can group there. Exploration by Scout boat would also be something a solo player could do. The base they report to could be the game's computer or other players or both.

 

[kilemall]

3-4G isn't a "Thing" for 100 Diameters, either...
... it's a "thing" for combattants. Higher G generally can dictate whether or not combat occurs, and if so, at what range.

2G is for being able to get into/out-of almost all worlds in canon, plus non-hypersonic gas giant refuels.
1G gets you most worlds.

Hmm, plotting out ship movement, the pirate problem gets a LOT tougher with a higher G target, if for no other reason then course matching after successfully disabling the engines, missile interception, and agility mods if allowed, etc.

The abstract range band resolution, probably not so much.