Using D20 Modern for T20: The Social Hero

[tjoneslo]

I went back through my notes on this project and discovered the real wall. When writing up the Charasmatic hero and the Socalite hero(base class based upon Social Standing) I wanted to make the classes as interesting and useful as any of the others. But D20 does not have a good,consistent rules for social interaction. How much you need social interaction rules and dice effects is a long debated topic which I have no interest in repeating here.

The D20 sources I found limited the social interaction powers to: Contacts, Favors and a few very short term mind control effects. I have seen many other games with good social interaction mechanics, but they are not always a good fit for the D20 mechanics.

So now I'm stuck trying to find a balance between the D20's implied "we don't need no stinkin social mechanics rules" and my desire to improve the social hero's abilities and provide more mechanics to encourage their use.

Any suggestions?

 

[RickA]

My only word on the debate is provide the mechanics, and people can chose to use or choose to ignore. Fail to provide the mechanics and you give them no choice.

I'd love to see a system for this sort of thing. I might not use it in all cases, but it would be nice to have around.

 

[Psion]

I think you are up against a tough one. I am having a hard time thinking of a system that would make a clean distinction between social and charismatic heroes.

However, one place you might start looking is the old MegaTraveller rules (There were things in there about guessing a target's skill levels, interviewing versus interrogating) and Dynasties and Demagouges and the Faceman (and Faceman/Snoop class guide) from spycraft.

I'm honestly not real hip on social mechanics as it seems to be difficult to make them robust without intruding on roleplaying.

 

[RickA]

I agree with your last sentence, Psion, but I'd still throw a good system out there and let people chose when to use it (if to use it) rather than give them nothing.

Always better to have a choice, imho.

I'll be following this thread to see what you come up with, tjones.

 

[Kirth]

I remember from the class feats that I wasn't too keen on two new base classes. I honestly don't know how you would solve that problem.

Referring to the other thread, I just believe the Social Standing and Education attributes should be used for prereqs for starting occupations.

The problem your having between Charasmatic/Socialite classes are going to be similar to problems that will crop up between Smart and Scholarly classes.

I'll try and think up some solutions, but my personal preferences would be to move away from those two new base classes.

 

[Kirth]

I was reviewing the other threads and I came across solomoncane's post about Grim Tales. It was from 2/18/05 and I meant to go look at it, but never did. If you can find someone or a LGS that has a copy maybe you could look in there to see if any of their ideas give you a kick start.
I was just at the homepage for it. If I get the money, I'm get that book.

 

[Flynn]

I've been reading the reviews, and it is definitely a book worthy of picking up. I haven't gotten it yet, but I did find Slavelords of Cydonia on eBay, and picked it up. That book rocks! If you were a fan of John Carter of Mars, Dray Prescot of Antares or similar heroes in your childhood, this is the mega-campaign book for you! Based on what I saw within that book, I know I want to get Grim Tales, when I next have money.

There's a good price for it on FRPGames, btw.

Hope this helps,
Flynn

 

[Kirth]

I'm not that old Flynn.
My youthful exposure to sci-fi started with the Star Wars, Aliens, and the Star Drek movies.

 

[Flynn]

I was born in '69, but even then, I still enjoyed Edgar Rice Burroughs John Carter of Mars novels (Princess of Mars, 1912, etc.) and the Drey Prescot series (1972-1988, and then some more published in German). I also like the Green Star series by Lin Carter and the first few books of the Gor novels, before John Norman found an outlet for his domination fantasies. I'm a big fan of the "sword and planet" sub-genre of sci-fi, though I recognize there aren't many of us. It's more a matter of taste than age, my friend.

I also like Star Wars, Aliens and Star Trek, so my tastes aren't that varied from the norm.

Grinnin',
Flynn

 

[clementk]

Originally posted by tjoneslo:
Any suggestions?

Take a look at Fading Suns d20 and Atlas Games' Dynasties and Demagogues for social feats, skills, and interaction, esp. the later book. Fading Suns d20 only has social feats but they were slightly better IIRC.

There have been one or two d20 Nobles books but I don't know if they had any social mechanics in them.

HTH.

 

[clementk]

Originally posted by Flynn:
I'm a big fan of the "sword and planet" sub-genre of sci-fi, though I recognize there aren't many of us. It's more a matter of taste than age, my friend.

If that's related to or another name for Planetary Romance...(waves). I'm likely younger than you and into early Jack Vance as well as some of the above and just got in the charity and full Forgotten Futures cds* (Victorian sci-fi), so I'd agree.

* the clipart alone is excellent fodder for lower TL Traveller worlds or retrotech looking TL15 spaceships.

 

[Kirth]

Originally posted by Flynn:
I was born in '69, but even then, I still enjoyed Edgar Rice Burroughs John Carter of Mars novels (Princess of Mars, 1912, etc.) and the Drey Prescot series (1972-1988, and then some more published in German). I also like the Green Star series by Lin Carter and the first few books of the Gor novels, before John Norman found an outlet for his domination fantasies. I'm a big fan of the "sword and planet" sub-genre of sci-fi, though I recognize there aren't many of us. It's more a matter of taste than age, my friend.

I also like Star Wars, Aliens and Star Trek, so my tastes aren't that varied from the norm.

Grinnin',
Flynn

Sorry. Or as C-3PO would say: "No, no, please don't get up..."

 

[Flynn]

Originally posted by Casey:
If that's related to or another name for Planetary Romance...(waves).

Yessir, that's right. I prefer not to use the term, though, because of its Harlequin connotations.

Remberee,
Flynn

 

[clementk]

Originally posted by Flynn:
Yessir, that's right. I prefer not to use the term, though, because of its Harlequin connotations.

<snicker> Understood. Though I don't think anyone can confuse works like Clark Smith's Vaults of Yoh-Vombis or Dweller in the Gulf, both set on Mars, for Harlequins. Well I guess there is sometimes a shared high body count...

ObTrav: it's good science fiction. And a reminder to check out the two books I mentioned before.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

I am using a social/charismatic hero right now as an opponent for the PCs, she is a Sector based Music Star, modeled after Madonna, who is rotten to the core. She uses a lot of "magic" in her act.

Currently, her husband was found aboard an enemy ship, apparently fleeing her rahter large and extremely well funded security force's clutches. The husband is a Writer, the sector's Stephen King in level of popularity. Both stand a chance of throwing a lot of light on a band of pirates out to stay low and inconspicous.

 

[Psion]

Okay, I thought about this one over the weekend, and have a few thoughts.

It seems to me that the primary difference between social hero and charismatic hero would be that the social hero is all about privledge (and duty and obligation), but the charismatic hero is not. A conman could start out as a charismatic hero.

Of course I feel that charismaic and social heroes should have a strong synergy, but that it should not be strictly necessary to have a social hero become a noble. For example, remember A Mote in God's Eye. The very Travelleresque protagonist there was a naval officer from a wealthy family. In T20, he would be a socail/navy character. But he was not about rubbing elbows with the gentry. He was a navy man.

I think that the class abilities of such a character should all be about wealth and access to resources. Think TAS and expand it tenfold.

Of course, a rich character sort of breaks the "keep the character's poor" stick-and-carrot of Traveller, but you could manage this by making the benefits that a social character can reap be very specific.

In traveller terms, though, it seems that many benefits that currently are generated randomly -- ship ownership, TAS, commissioning, Naval academy assignments (currently not in the rules, but this is the place to reintroduce them) would be a direct upshot of this class. Which would give you a reason to use this class as an entry point for classes other than nobles, particularly service classes.

I think there are some possibilities here.

 

[tjoneslo]

Originally posted by Psion:
Okay, I thought about this one over the weekend, and have a few thoughts.

It seems to me that the primary difference between social hero and charismatic hero would be that the social hero is all about privledge (and duty and obligation), but the charismatic hero is not.

Exactly. I've done some thinking about the social interaction rules and realized that social interaction requires a setting for it, something which Traveller provides in abundance. So it becomes easy create a social hero, who's duties and benefits are clearly defined. Something much harder to do in a generic SF game.

The two most general feat/features of the social hero would be contacts (a person or group of people the hero knows) and favors (owed to the hero, usable once).

A social hero would have the ability to pull resources from any local athority for any good reason. The entire point behind the Imperial nobility is to be able to have a person "on the ground" to represent the Imperium in times of need.

With that comes the ability to organize a group of people to a purpose. Either a disaster relief party or a swanky ball, which ever is needed.

Any other suggestions?

 

[Psion]

Originally posted by tjoneslo:
The two most general feat/features of the social hero would be contacts (a person or group of people the hero knows) and favors (owed to the hero, usable once).

"Usable once" sort of bothers me. SWd20 original version's noble had expendable favors, but the revised version regenerates. Probably a good idea.

One alternative, that could defray the potential problem of motivating the character without making him poor, is by allowing the character to "regenerate" his favors by fulfilling obligations.

 

[Shadowdancer]

In the new D&D DMG II, there are mechanics for using contacts in the game. IIRC, there also were some mechanics in the D20 Unearthed Arcana. DMG II also has mechanics for mentors which could be adapted for Traveller.

Contacts and other social mechanics were used in the Cyberpunk 2020 game. At least we used some when we played that game. They might not have been in the main book, but in one of the character class supplements.

Anyway, there are plenty of ways to integrate a social mechanic into T20 for favors owed to/collected from NPCs. You can start with adapting the Leadership feat. A Social hero also wouldn't have to be a Noble -- she might be an agent for a Noble, or someone who is in the spotlight alot because of her job/career.

I've always enjoyed giving the players contacts in any game I've run -- D&D, Traveller, Cyberpunk, whatever -- as it gives them some low-power resources they can call upon when in trouble, usually for info or skills the party doesn't have. And it gives me a chance to develope some memorable, recurring NPCs.

 

[Nearside]

Regenerating your favors makes for a great mechanic for generating story hooks.

"Hey, Dex, remember that time I let you borrow my ship? I know that made us even... but I need your help again..."

And so the next story begins.