CT Only: Using Navigation in place of jump tapes

[Marchand]

Hi all,

Jump tapes are on page 71 of my copy of TTB. You either need Generate program running, or a jump tape that costs Cr10,000 per jump number.

This (no doubt intentionally) could cause a problem for the crew of a new Type A with their MCr1 budget for programs. By the time you've bought Manoeuvre, Jump-1, and Navigate, you've spent MCr0.6 and probably can't afford Generate at MCr0.8. Unless the party has someone with Computer and Navigate skill who can write one of the basic programs, they have to use jump tapes at Cr10,000 a pop at least for their first few runs until they save up enough for Generate.

I suggest letting the PC navigator risk making a Navigation throw instead of using a jump tape. The task would be up to the ref; Beltstrike suggests throw 9- to avoid a navigation error, DM-1 per level of Navigation, navigation error puts you down 2D million km from target. (I might allow another -1 for EDU 10+.)

The Beltstrike throw means navigational mishaps are impossible if the navigator has Navigation-3 or higher. I would make it throw 14- on 3D, and I would add a DM of +1 per jump number, so it's roughly the same success odds for a jump-1.

This gives us another risk-reward trade-off for the party to consider.

A ship that has had Navigation mishaps might also get a bad rep among cargo brokers and passenger agents. 12m KM at 1G is nearly a whole extra day on the journey.

 

[mike wightman]

That's funny, in my copy it mentions self erasing cassettes, not tapes

More seriously this is why IMTU navigators maintain a jump rutter. This allows them to store data about jumps they have plotted and so get a bonus when plotting a jump for that route.

Jump cassettes and the generate program only work for mainworld to mainworld jumps (the jump lanes in old CT) IMTU, so if you want to go off the beaten path you have to plot your own course, which is where the navigation skill and a jump rutter come in handy.

 

[Condottiere]

Since I was picking someone up at the local airport, I decided it was time to start reading Shogun, so I know what a rutter is, now.

You may want to encrypt and conceal t.

 

[mike wightman]

They are very jealously guarded, encrypted and can be a valuable 'reward' for an adventure

 

[Timerover51]

Hi all,

Jump tapes are on page 71 of my copy of TTB. You either need Generate program running, or a jump tape that costs Cr10,000 per jump number.

This (no doubt intentionally) could cause a problem for the crew of a new Type A with their MCr1 budget for programs. By the time you've bought Manoeuvre, Jump-1, and Navigate, you've spent MCr0.6 and probably can't afford Generate at MCr0.8. Unless the party has someone with Computer and Navigate skill who can write one of the basic programs, they have to use jump tapes at Cr10,000 a pop at least for their first few runs until they save up enough for Generate.

I suggest letting the PC navigator risk making a Navigation throw instead of using a jump tape. The task would be up to the ref; Beltstrike suggests throw 9- to avoid a navigation error, DM-1 per level of Navigation, navigation error puts you down 2D million km from target. (I might allow another -1 for EDU 10+.)

The Beltstrike throw means navigational mishaps are impossible if the navigator has Navigation-3 or higher. I would make it throw 14- on 3D, and I would add a DM of +1 per jump number, so it's roughly the same success odds for a jump-1.

This gives us another risk-reward trade-off for the party to consider.

A ship that has had Navigation mishaps might also get a bad rep among cargo brokers and passenger agents. 12m KM at 1G is nearly a whole extra day on the journey.

I must have missed that about the jump tapes in The Traveller Book. However, even those would have to be fine tuned prior to jump to reflect the current position of the departure planet in relationship to the projected position of the target planet, as well as the correct position of the star based on where is was several years prior when the light you are using for navigation left the target stellar object.

Then there is the question of how do you wish to arrive in relationship to the target planet. Do you want to arrive ahead of the planet in its orbit, shortening the time to arrival? Do you want to arrive in a polar position, either above or below the planet of the system ecliptic? Is there a planetary moon system that you have to allow for? I always thought that it was questions and issues like these that the Navigation Skill was used for, with the higher the skill level, the more accurate the jump would be in relation to where you wanted to arrive.

 

[BlackBat242]

I must have missed that about the jump tapes in The Traveller Book. However, even those would have to be fine tuned prior to jump to reflect the current position of the departure planet in relationship to the projected position of the target planet, as well as the correct position of the star based on where is was several years prior when the light you are using for navigation left the target stellar object.

Then there is the question of how do you wish to arrive in relationship to the target planet. Do you want to arrive ahead of the planet in its orbit, shortening the time to arrival? Do you want to arrive in a polar position, either above or below the planet of the system ecliptic? Is there a planetary moon system that you have to allow for? I always thought that it was questions and issues like these that the Navigation Skill was used for, with the higher the skill level, the more accurate the jump would be in relation to where you wanted to arrive.

No fine-tuning is required, as the "jump tapes" (actually, a cassette that plugs into one of the computer's I/O ports) automatically erases itself as soon as it is used - so you have to buy a new one for each trip. These are freshly-generated for your stated planned departure date/time (and your departure location and destination), and thus are already "fine-tuned".

As for whether you can choose your arrival point, or if you have to use the "standard arrival point" is subject to negotiations between you and the "jump tape" supplier - you might have to pay extra for customizing your arrival point.

 

[Condottiere]

There has to be some operational security, or confidentiality, otherwise they might be a welcoming party at either the jump point or entry point.

 

[kilemall]

It never occurred to me to 'jump start' the character's interstellar travels in this manner.

I always assumed that acquiring the Generate program was intentionally the first step to force the players to either do some serious hauling in-system, use the jump tape system to get those first jumps under their belt while working the cargo speculation system hard, or do some crimes/merc work to make that first million. It's just too deliberate a hurdle to be set aside casually.

Undercutting the jump tape mechanism just limits their motivation to rectify the situation.

I also have the jump tapes degrade in effectiveness as different gravitational and jumpspace conditions change, so holding onto them or copying and reusing will ultimately result in a misjump.

Jump tapes also limit flexibility such as using jump in-system, or quickly calculating an escape from 'those Imperial cruisers'.

Finally, an unexplored problem with the jump tapes is you would have to proceed to a specific coordinate for jump and be set to exit jumpspace at the preprogrammed location.

That means a nice hunting 'watering hole' for pirates OR LE to know where you are going and be lurking right there- perhaps they even buy jump tapes to get the latest endpoints to be waiting there.

 

[mike wightman]

Self erasing cassette - not tape.

It has been misquoted so often as jump tape that everyone thinks that's what the rules say - they don't.

 

[creativehum]

It never occurred to me to 'jump start' the character's interstellar travels in this manner.

I always assumed that acquiring the Generate program was intentionally the first step to force the players to either do some serious hauling in-system, use the jump [cassette] system to get those first jumps under their belt while working the cargo speculation system hard, or do some crimes/merc work to make that first million. It's just too deliberate a hurdle to be set aside casually.

Undercutting the jump [cassette] mechanism just limits their motivation to rectify the situation.

I also have the jump [cassette] degrade in effectiveness as different gravitational and jumpspace conditions change, so holding onto them or copying and reusing will ultimately result in a misjump.

Jump [cassette] also limit flexibility such as using jump in-system, or quickly calculating an escape from 'those Imperial cruisers'.

Finally, an unexplored problem with the jump [cassette] is you would have to proceed to a specific coordinate for jump and be set to exit jumpspace at the preprogrammed location.

That means a nice hunting 'watering hole' for pirates OR LE to know where you are going and be lurking right there- perhaps they even buy jump [cassette] to get the latest endpoints to be waiting there.

Exactly.

Not that anyone is fixed to playing by the text in an RPG -- at all! But when I dug down into the text of the original three books, what I found was a rules system where all the notions and rules interlocked in purposeful ways.

It helps, I think, to remember that original Traveller is a direct descendent of D&D, and that many of the rules (jump cassettes, limited Jump distances because of Tech Levels and Hull Size, the Space Lane rules in the 1977 editions that interlock with great effect with the jump cassettes, ship payments and ship expenditures) all are about limiting travel in certain ways. This, in turn, as kilemall points out, encourages the desire to find the means of going further -- whatever adventures and shenanigans that entails.

In this way, the rules are a analog to (but not a 1:1 construction of) starting in first level dungeons, and then looking for clues to the second level or higher level locations by puzzling out puzzles, finding treasure maps and so on.

As always, this point of view sees original Traveller as an RPG game, not a socio-politcal functioning model of an interstellar civilization that RAND might run as an exercise one week. (Both are fun... but not the same thing.) As an RPG game, focused on adventure, with self-generating goals over time on the part of the Players/PCs, all these pieces work together quite well.

 

[kilemall]

Self erasing cassette - not tape.

It has been misquoted so often as jump tape that everyone thinks that's what the rules say - they don't.

I know what it says. I much prefer jump tape.

 

[GypsyComet]

I know what it says. I much prefer jump tape.

And since they originally come from Andre Norton's books, and specifically Galactic Derelict, wherein an important plot point* is winding one backwards to take them home again, the semantic change is understandable.

Trip tapes/Jump Tapes/Jump Cassettes etc are, if used the way early CT implies, a simple way to make the map both larger and smaller. The boonies really are remote, despite being only one or two parsecs off the main routes, and the role of Subsidized Liners and Traders (the Types M and R), and Free Traders in general, makes a lot more sense.

----
* No spoilers on a 60 year old book, sorry.

 

[creativehum]

My preference (and affection) for the word "cassette" over "tape" is that it leaves more leeway for the Referee to figure out what those cassettes are, what's in them, and how they work for his or her own specific Traveller setting. "Tapes" -- for me -- is specific and limiting in a way I find unfortunate.

 

[kilemall]

My preference (and affection) for the word "cassette" over "tape" is that it leaves more leeway for the Referee to figure out what those cassettes are, what's in them, and how they work for his or her own specific Traveller setting. "Tapes" -- for me -- is specific and limiting in a way I find unfortunate.

The distinction is lost on me as I am a mainframe person who went from literal 1960s 'this is bigtime computing in movies' reel tape to cassette loaders to virtual tape now on storage arrays duplicated across sites for immediate DR cutover.

But it's still TAPE as a virtual and logical construct/system definition and access methodology, whereas cassettes are merely a physical media variant/subset of tape.

Fooling Grandpa Mainframe into thinking it's 1978 is a daily occurrence. Cheaper then millions in rewriting code just for aesthetics.

 

[aramis]

The distinction is lost on me as I am a mainframe person who went from literal 1960s 'this is bigtime computing in movies' reel tape to cassette loaders to virtual tape now on storage arrays duplicated across sites for immediate DR cutover.

But it's still TAPE as a virtual and logical construct/system definition and access methodology, whereas cassettes are merely a physical media variant/subset of tape.

Fooling Grandpa Mainframe into thinking it's 1978 is a daily occurrence. Cheaper then millions in rewriting code just for aesthetics.

My first though with Cassette is a 200rd ammo box for a shipboard tertiary weapon. But i also encountered adverts for computer cassette hard drives in the 70's... winchester style platter cassettes. 10 MB each. And slide cassettes holding 30 ea 35mm slides.

Tapes cassettes were always "cassette tapes" or just "tapes."

 

[Marchand]

Exactly.

Not that anyone is fixed to playing by the text in an RPG -- at all! But when I dug down into the text of the original three books, what I found was a rules system where all the notions and rules interlocked in purposeful ways.

It helps, I think, to remember that original Traveller is a direct descendent of D&D, and that many of the rules (jump cassettes, limited Jump distances because of Tech Levels and Hull Size, the Space Lane rules in the 1977 editions that interlock with great effect with the jump cassettes, ship payments and ship expenditures) all are about limiting travel in certain ways. This, in turn, as kilemall points out, encourages the desire to find the means of going further -- whatever adventures and shenanigans that entails.

In this way, the rules are a analog to (but not a 1:1 construction of) starting in first level dungeons, and then looking for clues to the second level or higher level locations by puzzling out puzzles, finding treasure maps and so on.

As always, this point of view sees original Traveller as an RPG game, not a socio-politcal functioning model of an interstellar civilization that RAND might run as an exercise one week. (Both are fun... but not the same thing.) As an RPG game, focused on adventure, with self-generating goals over time on the part of the Players/PCs, all these pieces work together quite well.

Which is all fine, and very much my own approach. "It's a game, not a reality simulator" is a phrase I have used many times before.

I don't think that the modest suggestion I made originally to enhance the scope for player decision-making takes the game in the direction of reality simulation, or threatens to unravel the intricate skein of rules in Traveller whether of 1977 or 1981 vintage, so I think that line of discussion is somewhat tangential to the thread.

The tapes vs cassettes terminological debate is one where I must admit that I don't have a strong view.

 

[GypsyComet]

It helps, I think, to remember that original Traveller is a direct descendent of D&D...

That would be Star Rovers, which gives off such an early D&D vibe that it induces flashbacks; it WAS Space D&D.

I was a Traveller player before I came to D&D, and even in 1980 I could see little in the way of connection aside from being early RPGs. There were too many design and philosophical differences.

 

[creativehum]

That would be Star Rovers, which gives off such an early D&D vibe that it induces flashbacks; it WAS Space D&D.

I was a Traveller player before I came to D&D, and even in 1980 I could see little in the way of connection aside from being early RPGs. There were too many design and philosophical differences.

We'll, Marc Miller disagrees with you about D&D's influence on Travelller.

But everyone is going it set the scale of comparison at different starting points.

 

[GypsyComet]

Well, Marc Miller disagrees with you about D&D's influence on Travelller.

But everyone is going it set the scale of comparison at different starting points.

Yup. ALL of the early RPGs are "direct descendants" of D&D in that sense. Traveller fell considerably farther from the tree than nearly any other in that first generation, though.

 

[creativehum]

Which is all fine, and very much my own approach. "It's a game, not a reality simulator" is a phrase I have used many times before.

I don't think that the modest suggestion I made originally to enhance the scope for player decision-making takes the game in the direction of reality simulation, or threatens to unravel the intricate skein of rules in Traveller whether of 1977 or 1981 vintage, so I think that line of discussion is somewhat tangential to the thread.

The tapes vs cassettes terminological debate is one where I must admit that I don't have a strong view.

I apologize for the confusion.

The first part of my post was addressing why the limitations on the PCs (tech, economics, ship availability, how subsectors are built) are part and parcel of the early tradition of RPGs as adventure through exploration, and how play itself allow the Players (via their PCs) to explore further.

(This is one of the reasons the 1977 edition of the rules suggested that one or two subsectors were all the Referee had to generate for play. Travel was assumed to be limited.)

In the idea you have that kicked off this thread (which is a fine idea, and every Referee should build his setting to work exactly the way he wants it), this cap is removed. Yes, there will be a risk for a penalty on time/money... but it still opens the vistas of more stars quickly for starting PCs. (Again, all good if that's the what the Referee wants.)

I was making the point that this a stark difference from the stark limitations imposed by the original rules. That's all. Not a challenge. But I think the distinct is worth making, because it creates a very different play experience.

From your posts, I now assume you see all this. But, again, I wasn't challenging you or saying your idea was bad.

That last paragraph was my explanation for my point of view. It was not -- at all -- a direct reference to your idea, or a refutation of it. It was saying, to anyone involved in the thread, "By the way, the things I wrote above, it makes sense to me because I see original Traveller this way."

I think context in these matters is helpful, because people have a ziilion assumptions about what RPGs are and how they should be played... but they are often very personal assumptions that some people assume are universal -- but are not. Conversations become arguments because people talk past each other because the context of personal understandings are often not revealed. I simply wanted to make my underlying assumptions clear.