Vacc Suit Skill, or Lack Thereof

[Marchand]

CT says roll 10+ to avoid mishap when attempting "any non-ordinary manoeuvre... (including running, jumping, hiding...)" while wearing vacc suit.

Just wondering how strictly people enforce this? Running, jumping and hiding sound like they might be quite ordinary.

I ask because none of my 3 characters has vacc suit (not unlikely given the few skills doled out in CT chargen). But I want to send them off to investigate a derelict base where life support may have failed...

Quick edit: I am thinking "vacc suit-0" as a default for anyone from a spacefaring occupation, which would be Navy, Scouts, Marines and Merchants. (I am using the Traveller Book only.) Just enough to get away from the unskilled penalty.

Or just giving someone vacc suit-1 so they can pull others' chestnuts out of the fire (which is roll 7+, +2 per level of vacc suit, -4 if unskilled).

 

[Supplement Four]

CT says roll 10+ to avoid mishap when attempting "any non-ordinary manoeuvre... (including running, jumping, hiding...)" while wearing vacc suit.

I enforce it as written.

Don't forget, that Vacc Suit skill gives provides +4 per skill level to the throw. So, Vacc Suit-1 means a 6+ throw, and Vacc Suit-2 means success is automatic.

In some instances, other bonuses can be applied, too.

I ask because none of my 3 characters has vacc suit (not unlikely given the few skills doled out in CT chargen). But I want to send them off to investigate a derelict base where life support may have failed...

In CT, skill is not always a requirement. Some characters get out of chargen with something like two skills total. For most tasks, there is no penalty in CT for not having skill.

Skills in CT don't show all that a character knows. Skills show where the character excells. So, if a character only has two skills, that character can do a lot of stuff, but he excells in those two skills listed.

Do you have Beltstrike? That's probably the best CT source for rules governing Vacc Suit operation.

Quick edit: I am thinking "vacc suit-0" as a default for anyone from a spacefaring occupation, which would be Navy, Scouts, Marines and Merchants. (I am using the Traveller Book only.) Just enough to get away from the unskilled penalty.

This type of things is actually in the rules. It says that the GM should give a character a zero level skill if appropriate. Look at pg. 29 of your Traveller Book.

Or just giving someone vacc suit-1 so they can pull others' chestnuts out of the fire (which is roll 7+, +2 per level of vacc suit, -4 if unskilled).

There are two throws listed under Vacc Suit. The one you've shown here is the one for skilled individuals attempting to save or remedy problems others are having. Note how skill is dependent in this throw--it's the skilled atempting to help out the non-skilled.

The first throw listed is a basic 10+ throw to avoid dangerous situations. Note that there's no penalty for not being skilled, and skilled characters get +4 DM per level of skill.

Read the rule carefully, and you'll find this is true:

1 - Characters with no Vacc Suit skill need make no throws at all as long as they play it "safe". If they move slow, use a tether line, and what not, they can make spacewalks without incident.

2 - If something out of the ordinary is required, the throw is 10+ with a +4 DM per level of skill. Those with no skill or Vacc Suit-0 roll 10+.

3 - If a problem occurs, then the throw to remedy the situation is 7+, +2DM per level of skill, with a -4 DM if not skilled.



Also, look at the Zero Gravity rules you'll find on pg. 45 and pg. 48. Those will give you some ideas for other DMs.

Remember, too, that the rules in CT are suggestions. The GM is the final arbiter. If you think of something different for specific circumstance in your game, then don't hesitate to change it ot fit the situation.





One last thing to mention: Don't forget the Experience rules starting on pg. 103. (Or, the rules in Book 4.) Too many GMs forget to use these, and they're a great way to give a character two extra skills straight out of chargen.

 

[Sir Brad]

Many Canon Adventures actually state that Vacc-Suit is a Default -0 level skill for Travellers, also remember that Vacc-Suit covers all kinds of Environmental Suits like the Combat Environment Suit (a common Army & Marine piece of equipment TL-10+), Combat Armour (Available at TL-11 and almost universal issue for non Battledress Troops at TL's 12 and above).

 

[Icosahedron]

It's your game, play it how you like, regardless of what the rules say.

Personally, if I think a character should be able to do something without too much trouble, I don't bother imposing a roll - unless there are special circumstances.

eg. I wouldn't bother rolling to see if a character can jump untethered from one side of the cargo bay to the other - unless the clamshell doors are open...

 

[beowulf2044]

Or one of my techniques, where I pick up a pair of dice and shake them like a rattlesnake perpared to strike and say, "Give me a reason why I shoulnd't throw down."

This often promotes player creativity as they explain just how and why they should avoid a potential consequence. Although if I get 'rules lawyering', the dice do fly.

 

[BlackBat242]

Quick edit: I am thinking "vacc suit-0" as a default for anyone from a spacefaring occupation, which would be Navy, Scouts, Marines and Merchants. (I am using the Traveller Book only.) Just enough to get away from the unskilled penalty.

This type of things is actually in the rules. It says that the GM should give a character a zero level skill if appropriate. Look at pg. 29 of your Traveller Book.

Page 23 Default Skills in Book 1, Characters and Combat (CT-LBB).

 

[Marchand]

Thanks for all these replies.

It says that the GM should give a character a zero level skill if appropriate. Look at pg. 29 of your Traveller Book.


One last thing to mention: Don't forget the Experience rules starting on pg. 103. (Or, the rules in Book 4.) Too many GMs forget to use these, and they're a great way to give a character two extra skills straight out of chargen.

Page 29 reference was spot-on.

Interesting take on the experience rules; I thought chargen was already meant to capture a player's experience during those years.

I should have said upfront that I play solo (I moved to a new city about 3 weeks ago), so I don't have to worry about players chucking their pringles tubes at me if there is any perceived unfairness. But I thought I might as well stick to the rules as far as possible, or it might as well just be creative writing (not necessarily a bad thing, but not what I'm trying to do).

And by the way, I am using Supplement 4's UGM. It really helps the game flow. I try and tailor the tasks to what it says in CT skill descriptions where possible.

Er, that's enough gabbling on... back to the abandoned base!

 

[the angle]

The most important thing with a vacc suit roll (or any roll, really) is to have a good idea what the consequence of failure is. If the consequence of a failed vacc suit roll is, "you land badly after your jump and look clumsy," then why bother? If the result is, "you land badly after your jump, shatter your air tank, rocket away into space like a deflating balloon, and die within moments," then I might suggest that you reconsider the lethality of your game. But vacc suit is a tricky skill that way, because characters won't generally wear one unless the environment is deadly. Try to not make a vacc suit roll the CT equivalent of save-or-die.

I always assumed, too, that the tech level of the suit should factor into this roll. An Apollo suit took a lot of skill and training to use properly; the suits used now, somewhat less so. By 400 years from now, they may not be much more complex than a wet suit, meaning that they'll be much more forgiving for users with little experience.

Steve

 

[far-trader]

However, recreational (= Vacc-1) and professional (= Vacc-2) scuba divers die each year. It is about as safe as it can get and still deaths happen. I'd expect if untrained divers (= no skill) were out there a lot more deaths would be happening.

I have no qualms about a PC being killed because they tried some stupid stunt with no skill at all. I would probably give a skilled character (but NOT a Vacc-0 skilled character) a chance to save themselves or another in trouble but if they failed that, well space is dangerous.

I don't think technology will ever be entirely foolproof. And we are talking a roll where a professional (Vacc-2) will never fail. And remember that roll is for circumstances beyond the ordinary. You don't roll for a character strolling down the street in a Vacc-Suit on that Atm-0 world, or crossing between two ships in space on a tether. They always succeed. Sounds to me like maybe the roll is already factoring the very best in foolproof user friendly tech.

So what's the big deal?

The players have to be aware (by telling them) that it IS that dangerous. That is part of the job of the ref. If the player still goes ahead and does it and the character dies, it's on the player. I'd hope it was because the alternative was certain death and this at least offered them a chance.

 

[Supplement Four]

Interesting take on the experience rules; I thought chargen was already meant to capture a player's experience during those years.

That's true. But a character can be in the process of learning a skill as soon as the character musters out of a career if the GM allows it.

Read the experience rules carefully. It's not so easy to learn a new skill (that's what the Book 4 skills are for), but improving a skill the character already has is quite possible.

If a toon doesn't have Vacc Suit, use the pg. 29 rule to give him Vacc Suit-0. Now, he's got the skill, and he can use the Experience rules to improve it to Vacc Suit-1 immediately if he makes his 8+ dedication throw.







It takes so long to improve in a skill per the rules that players can, in effect, have a skill at one level higher than normal until the player decides to work on another skill. At that time, provided the necessary throws are made, the player can lower his previous skill by one level (because that bonus level never became permanent) but raise another skill's level by one.

The character is limited to two skills, and these must be skills in which the character already has some expertise (not new skills).

If combat skills, then only one gun combat and one blade combat skill can be chosen.







A Note about CT experience:

The rules in the Traveller Book (and from Books 1-3) are meant to represent learning by experience. Self taught stuff. Reading, listening, practice.

Learning by experience takes longer than having a learned instructor teach you.

The quicker method to learn new skills is listed in Book 4, where a character can take an intensive course with an instructor and learn faster (months vs. years).

I should have said upfront that I play solo (I moved to a new city about 3 weeks ago), so I don't have to worry about players chucking their pringles tubes at me if there is any perceived unfairness. But I thought I might as well stick to the rules as far as possible, or it might as well just be creative writing (not necessarily a bad thing, but not what I'm trying to do).

You play solo?

I'd like to hear how you do this.

Can you give me an example of a typical game session? I'd be interested in hearing how it goes.

 

[Marchand]

The most important thing with a vacc suit roll (or any roll, really) is to have a good idea what the consequence of failure is....

I always assumed, too, that the tech level of the suit should factor into this roll. An Apollo suit took a lot of skill and training to use properly; the suits used now, somewhat less so. By 400 years from now, they may not be much more complex than a wet suit, meaning that they'll be much more forgiving for users with little experience.

Steve

However, recreational (= Vacc-1) and professional (= Vacc-2) scuba divers die each year. It is about as safe as it can get and still deaths happen. I'd expect if untrained divers (= no skill) were out there a lot more deaths would be happening.

- good points, thanks.

You play solo?

I'd like to hear how you do this.

Can you give me an example of a typical game session? I'd be interested in hearing how it goes.

I'll give you a cut-and-paste of my game log below. My starting-point was that I wanted to have 3 "PCs" wake up from low berths, with no idea how long they'd been there, and no idea why they were there in the first place. I don't know either - that's something I'll make up as the story proceeds.

I've collected a few random plot generator type things over the years - like Mythic, which is explicitly designed to be a GM emulator - and I use these to come up with plot elements to work with. Much easier than having to think everything up from scratch!

My subsector is 3D, generated in Astrosynthesis, with systems generated according to Book 6 rules by the Trav plugin available for that programme. Not very good picture available here:
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Gallery/index.php?n=762

 

[Marchand]

So here is the start of my game log. I've got a 4-page doc from a couple of sessions, maybe 3 hours total, of the solo game.

The "adventure seed" came from Adamant Entertainment's space opera plot generator, which I picked up from rpgnow for the price of zero. The questions are answered using the Mythic system.

"Introduction

Two men and a woman find themselves awakened in a lowberth chamber, possibly aboard a spacecraft or space station. They are: Rayf Saarsvel, ex-Imperial Marine; Tia Sirayn, ex-Imperial Army; and Corte Farin, formerly of the Survey. None of them knows why they are there, or for how long they have been there.

Chapter 1

[Adventure seed: The characters must ASSIST a MERCHANT in a LAWLESS ZONE, but have to contend with a CORPORATE AGENT while being confronted by a CRIMINAL ORGANISATION.]

Q: Is there any equipment (likely)? Yes. The characters find communicators, an electronic toolkit, and hard-wearing clothes (cloth armour) in lockers.
Q: Are there any weapons (unlikely)? Yes. They also find laspistols, but no charge packs.

They try the door.

Q: Is the door locked (likely)? Yes.

Farin tries to pick the lock.

Task: ELECTRONICS/EDU/-2 (Roll 4, modified to 5; task failed).

There is a computer terminal in the corner of the room. Ignoring Sirayn's sarcasm, Farin tries to access it. It is of an unfamiliar design.

Task: ELECTRONICS/EDU/+1 (normally +2, but design is unfamiliar to Farin). Success.

The terminal is linked to the system of the Yi Xiu Mining Corporation. The characters are aboard one of its base facilities, scattered throughout the Yi Xiu system's extensive asteroid belt. Farin knows the system as there is a Survey base there. Finally, he spots the date. The characters have been in longsleep for 27 years.

Using his access to the system, Farin finds that the base is apparently abandoned, apart from them. He tries again to unlock the door by accessing the security system.

Task: EDU/+0. Failed.

At that point, a computerised voice informs them: “Attention. There is a ship approaching. ETA: six hours, forty-two minutes.” The ship is Far Trader class.

..."

And so on.

I'm not saying it's any substitute for a RL group, but I find it a fun way to pass a little time and a much-needed creative outlet.

 

[Ran Targas]

House Rule: If another PC has a skill level of 2 or better in a skill, they can teach your PC the skill at level 0 in 5 days, for purposes of the game.

So, given the opportunity (a jump or short layover), a PC can learn enough about a vacc suit, laser carbine, air/raft, etc. without killing themselves on the first solo attempt.

The kicker is that 0 level skills are quickly forgotten unless used; so the corillary to this house rule is that a PC can't carry 0 level skills over to the next adventure without bringing it to level 1.

 

[opensent]

Using Vacc Suit as written isn't as deadly as one might think. The 10+ is to avoid a dangerous situation, but it only takes a 7+ to resolve the incident, a throw that can be made by anyone.

So all your group really needs is someone with Vacc Suit-1 or 2. The rest of your party can be unskilled noobs.

'Just stay close to the Bob the Belter folks and you'll be fine...'

 

[Supplement Four]

House Rule: If another PC has a skill level of 2 or better in a skill, they can teach your PC the skill at level 0 in 5 days, for purposes of the game.

Don't forget the "teaching" rules in Book 4 for new skills.

Using Vacc Suit as written isn't as deadly as one might think. The 10+ is to avoid a dangerous situation, but it only takes a 7+ to resolve the incident, a throw that can be made by anyone.

But, if unskilled, there's a penalty for the throw to resolve the incident, making the throw quite tough (IIRC, it's a -2 DM if not skilled, making the throw a 9+ to resolve a problem).







The Angle has some good points about the GM thinking of the result of failure. As far as TL goes, Look at DGP's Grand Census (or is it Survey?). One of those books has a nice section on Vacc Suits, detailing the various pieces of equipment at the different tech levels and even including an illustration of what a Vacc Suit looks like at each tech level.

 

[ShapeShifter]

Since we're on the subject of suits...

Is there a canon ruling on explosive decompression and how long a human might be able to withstand it?

I've been tinkering with a stat-loss of -2/5 seconds.

Has anyone else modelled this in the rules?

Perhaps that kind of thing is too granular.

 

[far-trader]

Since we're on the subject of suits...

Is there a canon ruling on explosive decompression and how long a human might be able to withstand it?

Yep, in CT LBB2 in the Space Combat section.

On first blush it is brutally deadly and unforgiving. Throw Dex- to put on a Vacc-Suit (must be immediately at hand), DM = double Vacc-Suit skill. Fail = Dead. No second tries or buddy rescues.

Though there is room for interpretation there.

How long is the explosive decompression event and attempt to secure a Vacc-Suit? A space combat turn? That'd be 1000 seconds. Sounds about right for a small hole(s) and the rather forgiving roll of Dex with Double Skill DM and the implication you're going through the whole Vacc-Suit dressing sequence.

Now if your ship is blown apart or cut in half and you are immediately exposed to vacuum then yes, you have seconds to do something about it. There's another thread and some NASA links around here somewhere iirc. I vaguely recall it being about 12 seconds. Call it one personal combat round. I'd allow an action to put on a helmet at hand and seal up. Or jump into a rescue ball. Not enough time to get into a Vacc-Suit.

IMO the whole "SOP is to depressurize the whole ship at the first sign of danger to avoid explosive decompression" is over the top and unnecessary. In MTU the correct SOP is to don (but not seal) Vacc-Suits or retreat to secure rooms. Then IF the ship is actually holed all the crew in suits have to do is don helmets (if not already on) and seal up. A free action in a space combat turn. And those in secure rooms are safe unless the ship suffers a critical hit.

 

[far-trader]

Since we're on the subject of ...explosive decompression and how long a human might be able to withstand it?

I've been tinkering with a stat-loss of -2/5 seconds.

An interesting idea. Which stat(s)? Endurance alone perhaps. That would seem about right iirc. But we probably need to get the actual figures before deciding. But just calling it a personal combat round (or two) is probably good enough. And again, not enough time to put a Vacc-Suit on, but plenty of time to seal up, or jump into a handy rescue ball.

 

[ShapeShifter]

Recently (I think it was on the show The Universe airing on the History Channel) I had heard that a person could endure a minute in space. Somewhere in those 60 seconds unconsciousness would set in, then death.

For a person with 777 they could last 35 seconds before being unconscious, then dead between 52 and 53 seconds.

Maybe that's overly optimistic. We also have to think about exposure to all the radiation and micrometeorites and whatnot.

Perhaps we should propose a useful scientific experiment: launch unpopular celebrities into space and push them into the airlock. :rofl:

 

[Icosahedron]

As FT says, this was discussed in a thread here, probably during the last six months. The NASA info suggests, IIRC, about 5 secs to incapacity, 10 secs to unconsciousness. Death is less sure - NASA have problems doing destructive testing on human subjects.

On Earth, people have been revived without problems after 30 minutes of heart-failure, OTOH, others have suffered brain damage after only a minute or two without oxygen.
If you're on your own, though, unconscious = dead.

I'd agree you're looking at one combat action to save yourself.