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What can I do with a Particle Accelerator at TL 8?

McPerth

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In MGT High Guard is stated particle accelerators may only be mounted as single weapons, but they need a triple turret to be mounted (LBB2, page 47).

This is coherent with other Traveller versions where PA's could only be in single turrets, and sometimes they required larger ones to be mounted (CT & MT, I cannot talk about other versions).

My surprise was when I checked again the core book (page 111) and I found that, even as PA turret weapon is TL 8 (quite earlier than CT or MT, where they appeared at TL 14), triple turret is TL 9. So, how can I mount a PA on a TL 8 ship? How could they develop a weapon they could not mount on the ship? Or there's another way to mount it, aside from a triple turet?
 
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I'm not sure I follow. Are you mixing rules systems? LBB2 page 47? Do you mean MgT HG (Supplement 2) pg 47? I don't see anything about particle weapons (not as single mounts or requiring a triple turret, in fact no mention at all of particle weapons...) in my copy there. Maybe there was a version change and it's been errata corrected in mine? (I'm presuming since I bought mine only recently, PDF, it is the newest version).
 
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I'm not sure I follow. Are you mixing rules systems? LBB2 page 47? Do you mean MgT HG (Supplement 2) pg 47? I don't see anything about particle weapons (not as single mounts or requiring a triple turret, in fact no mention at all of particle weapons...) in my copy there. Maybe there was a version change and it's been errata corrected in mine? (I'm presuming since I bought mine only recently, PDF, it is the newest version).

I meant MGT LBB2.

Maybe PDF version is large book, instead of LBB2. I don't know what page is it on the larger version (that's why I specified LBB2), but for what I've readed here, if it's on LBB it must also be in large book.

It's on the spacecraft options chapter, under weapons, changes to core rules, last point (at least in LBB2, I guess in MGT HG supplement 2 too).
 
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Ah, that's right, I'd forgotten MgT did some LBBs :) As I understand it the only difference was the LBB's skipped the sidebars and illos? Which changed the page numbers and count. I could be misremembering though.

As it turns out the page number in this case seems the same, my spacecraft options chapter, under weapons, changes to core rules starts on pg 47. No mention of particle weapons at all though:

The following amendments are made to the core rule book:

• Pulse lasers inflict 2d6 damage and have a –2DM to hit and
beam lasers inflict 1d6 damage. Beam lasers become available
at TL9.
• Missiles are capable of thrust 10, with the turns to impact on
page 147 halved (rounded up). However, missiles have limited
endurance of 60 minutes (10 turns) before they run out of fuel.
• Sandcaster munitions can be constructed with at TL5 allowing
low tech worlds to supply some of a navy’s munitions.
• Meson screens reduce radiation damage from meson guns and
meson flicker weapons. Radiation hits from these weapons
suffer a –DM equal to twice the active number of screens
• No launcher includes ammunition in its purchase cost. Missiles,
torpedoes and so forth must be purchased separately.

And that's all, then it's onto Advanced Rules... Looks like they dropped the rule?
 
Ah, that's right, I'd forgotten MgT did some LBBs :) As I understand it the only difference was the LBB's skipped the sidebars and illos? Which changed the page numbers and count. I could be misremembering though.

As it turns out the page number in this case seems the same, my spacecraft options chapter, under weapons, changes to core rules starts on pg 47. No mention of particle weapons at all though:



And that's all, then it's onto Advanced Rules... Looks like they dropped the rule?

In my LBB2 (MGT) (bought about 4-5 months ago) there are two more points:

- Nuclear dampers and screens now take uo 20 tons of space. Nuclear dampers cost MCr 30

- Only one particle beam can be fitted to a turret, but this must be a triple turret.

I guess we must wait for someone to clarify this for us...
 
Yep, we'll have to hope for a more official clarification :) I tried searching the forum on Mongoose (I think that might be where I saw this question before, some time back) but the recent update of the forum software seems to have lost the archived search function, all I get are the very recent posts (since the update) and none of them are this subject.

It could be mine is still the earlier version (though I also bought it about 4 months ago) and yours has the newest additions.

I do see in mine (page 65) Capital Ship Design; Armaments; Screens; that Nuclear Dampers start at 20tons and MCr30 in the table. Maybe that bit of change was incorporated but not clarified (as yours does) that it also applies back to Core as well?
 
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My surprise was when I checked again the core book (page 111) and i found that, even as PA turret weapon is TL 8 (quite earlier than CT or MT, where they appeared at TL 14), triple turret is TL 9. SO, how can I mount a PA on a TL 8 ship? How could they develop a weapon they could not mount on the ship? Or there's another way to mount it, aside from a triple turet?
Nothing to stop you from mounting a lower TL weapon in a higher TL turret (though the development may not make any logical sense). ;)

More importantly, one could mount the same or higher TL enhanced weapon - the lower TL allowing PAs to have advantages to balance things a little better (cost/requirements and capabilities).

Can see the rational for lowering TL of PAs - though size requirement is actually kinda silly physically, it makes sense game balance wise (given the damage dice).
 
Nothing to stop you from mounting a lower TL weapon in a higher TL turret (though the development may not make any logical sense). ;)

Of course there's no problem to mount a lower TL weapon on a higher TL turret. You can mount a 16" naval rifled gun on it if you want to (though I agree it doesn't make sense).

What I was talking about (as the thread name intended to say) is how to mount a PA weapon on a spaceship if you're TL 8, as you may build the weapon but you cannot build the turret for it.
 
Ah, that is a different problem ... use a 'prototype' turret. ;)

Rules mention this ~p52 of HG, and in TMB & CSC. Most have tonnage x2 and cost x1.5, IIRC. You might add an extra failure DM.

There is also the imported TL option, of course.

[Assume the bay is a higher TL and as a starship & with the triple turret rule, a fixed mount is out?]
 
In MGT High Guard is stated particle accelerators may only be mounted as single weapons, but they need a triple turret to be mounted (LBB2, page 47).

My surprise was when I checked again the core book (page 111) and I found that, even as PA turret weapon is TL 8 (quite earlier than CT or MT, where they appeared at TL 14), triple turret is TL 9. SO, how can I mount a PA on a TL 8 ship? How could they develop a weapon they could not mount on the ship? Or there's another way to mount it, aside from a triple turet?

You are working too hard at this.

At TL 6, a civilization can build a normal sized Missile Rack. There are no Starship Turrets available, so Fixed Mounting the Missile Rack to a Hardpoint is the only option available.

At TL 7, a civilization can build a normal sized Beam Laser, Pulse Laser and Sandcaster (plus the TL 6 Missile Rack). The civilization also gains the ability to mount one weapon per turret to a starship hardpoint (the TL 7 Single Turret). Since Single Turrets are the only ones available, only one normal sized weapon (a Missile Rack, Beam Laser, Pulse Laser or Sandcaster) can be mounted or swapped interchangeably in the single normal sized weapon bracket found inside a normal Single Turret.

At TL 8, a civilization gains the ability to mount two normal sized weapons (a Missile Rack, Beam Laser, Pulse Laser or Sandcaster) in a larger turret to a starship hardpoint (the TL 8 Double Turret). This does not simply represent the ability to build a larger turret, but includes more advanced fire control to allow two weapons to target the same point and converge fire or allow two weapons to target different objects and coordinate fire to allow each weapon to hit its target with no loss of accuracy. Since both Single Turrets and Double Turrets are available, one normal sized weapon can be mounted in the single normal sized weapon bracket found inside a normal Single Turret or two normal sized weapons can be mounted in the two normal sized weapon brackets found inside a normal Double Turret.

At TL 9, a civilization gains the ability to mount three normal sized weapons (a Missile Rack, Beam Laser, Pulse Laser or Sandcaster) in a still larger turret to a starship hardpoint (the TL 9 Triple Turret). This does not simply represent the ability to build a larger turret, but includes more advanced fire control to allow three weapons to target the same point and converge fire or allow each weapon to target different objects and coordinate fire to allow all weapons to hit their target with no loss of accuracy. Since the Single Turret, Double Turret and Triple Turret are available, one normal sized weapon can be mounted in the single normal sized weapon bracket found inside a normal Single Turret or two normal sized weapons can be mounted in the two normal sized weapon brackets found inside a normal Double Turret or three normal sized weapons can be mounted in the three normal sized weapon brackets found inside a normal Triple Turret.

Now for the Special Case.
At TL 8, some weapon scientist with serious inadequacy issues builds “The Mother Of All Weapons” – a Particle Accelerator. One small problem, however, is that the PA is as large as THREE normal sized weapons. Fortunately, we are in luck, because the equipment needed to mount a weapon in a turret and aim it at a single target was perfected back at TL 7. That said, the PA will not fit in a normal sized weapon bracket, so we need to build a super-sized bracket and a super-sized fire control for our super-sized weapon (the TL 8 turret-mounted Particle Accelerator). All of this super-sized equipment means that a Particle Accelerator Giant Single Turret is as large as a TL 9 Triple Turret for normal sized weapons. As a Single Turret, the PA Turret could be built at TL 7 (although the weapon could not), and because of its size, the Giant PA Single Turret costs as much as a Triple Turret for normal weapons.

Does that make sense?
 
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Nope - it doesn't ;)

The rules as written state it needs a triple turret to be mounted, and you don't get those 'til TL9.

So unless you go the prototype turret route one of three things needs to happen, the PA fits in a double turret, the TL of the PA is increased to 9, finally the TL of the triple turret could be reduced to 8.
 
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Ah, that is a different problem ... use a 'prototype' turret. ;)

Rules mention this ~p52 of HG, and in TMB & CSC. Most have tonnage x2 and cost x1.5, IIRC. You might add an extra failure DM.

There is also the imported TL option, of course.


That's an elegant soultion. I've readed the rules about protoypes, but I just though on them for weapons properly, not for the turrets. As you say, this limits are not in the rules, so it should be able to be used.

[Assume the bay is a higher TL and as a starship & with the triple turret rule, a fixed mount is out?]

Bay weapons may in fact be too large.

While I thought about fixed weapons, I was not sure if possible (aside to limit the use of the weapon). This was what I meant when I asked if there's another way to mount them, aside from triple turret.
 
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Nope - it doesn't ;)

The rules as written state it needs a triple turret to be mounted, and you don't get those 'til TL9.

So unless you go the prototype turret route one of three things needs to happen, the PA fits in a double turret, the TL of the PA is increased to 9, finally the TL of the triple turret could be reduced to 8.

A Turret for mounting only ONE weapon is the definition of a Single Turret (avalable at TL 7).

Just as the size of a PA is an exception to the turret weapon rules, the cost of its Single Turret is an exception to the turret weapon rules.
 
A Turret for mounting only ONE weapon is the definition of a Single Turret (avalable at TL 7).

Just as the size of a PA is an exception to the turret weapon rules, the cost of its Single Turret is an exception to the turret weapon rules.

But rules on MGT LBB2 say it must be a triple turret, not have the costs and space needs of a triple turret. IMHO that hints all the requirements that make a triple turret possible must be met (better fire control, better materials, and whatever else is needed).

AFAIK, former editions of Traveller didn't specify a TL for turrets, just for the weapons on them, assuming (or so I understand) that turrets themselves are not a big technological problem.
 
A Turret for mounting only ONE weapon is the definition of a Single Turret (avalable at TL 7).

Just as the size of a PA is an exception to the turret weapon rules, the cost of its Single Turret is an exception to the turret weapon rules.
Except the book states the PA needs to be installed in a triple turret - and the triple turret is TL9.

It is errata and needs clearing up.
 
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