What is to be done with the Kinunir?

[Old_Dr_Skull]

I remember the first Traveller game I ever played was in High School maybe in 1981 or 82. We did one of the "situations' from "The Kinunir." wherein we found ourselves in the abandoned Kinunir, desparately dealing with the insane computer, and eventually blowing the computer up with a hand grenade. Then, I can't honestly remember what we did with the ship itself.

Now, I'm about to start a new campaign, and actually have my own copy of adventure 1, and am really quite intrigued. What is to be done with the Kinunir once it is recovered? I realize that every campaign will be different, but I'm still interested.

Are the players to be imagined as re-furbishing and using it? Are they just supposed to turn it in to the Navy for a reward? Are they to sell it on the black market?

I supposed I'm interested in how other have seen the aftermath develop. What has happened that you've seen?

 

[Dragoner]

Navy would most definitely want it back with it's BG.

 

[rancke]

Give it back to the navy and hope for a reward. And turn the warrant over to Duke Norris. Whatever you do, don't attempt to use the warrant yourself unless you want a large number of highly competent people with absolutely no sense of humor hunting you assidiously until the day you die.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

I have a sneaky suspicion that this is the warrant that Norris uses to take over during the FFW, the published story being a smokescreen to hide the facts - rogue AI, blank warrants in capital vessels (course that would have to be retconned anyway when the Kinunir ceased to be a capital ship), trespass in an interdicted system...

 

[rancke]

I have a sneaky suspicion that this is the warrant that Norris uses to take over during the FFW, the published story being a smokescreen to hide the facts

I am absolutely convinced that the Kinunir warrant is a fake. I find it inconcievable that anyone would be stupid enough to issue a double-blank Imperial warrant. That is, a 'to bearer' warrant with no restrictions on authority. A warrant with no restrictions issued specifically by name to someone trusted by Strephon, yes. A warrant authorizing some very limited specific project to bearer, possibly (although I think it's more likely that Strephon would send something like that to a duke and tell him to pick someone to do the job and scribble his name on it).

And, of course, if it IS geniune, it is one of the nastiest hose jobs I've ever encountered, considering how the Imperial authorities can be expected to act when they find out that someone has misused it.

- rogue AI, blank warrants in capital vessels (course that would have to be retconned anyway when the Kinunir ceased to be a capital ship), trespass in and interdicted system...

The real problem with the warrant in the Kinunir's safe is that it must have been issued 20 years before Strephon issued Norris' warrant.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

IIRC, the Kinunir's warrant is Norris' second warrant.

 

[mike wightman]

Yup, but it is a sort of general purpose - lend the bearer every assistance - sort of thing.

Just for a moment go back to when the Kinunir class ships are state of the art battle cruisers - prior to the HG paradigm shift. A time when there weren't a thousand Imperial ships per sub sector.

What is being postulated is the standard practice of equipping a ship's captain with the authority to overrule whatever local authority in times of extremis. Ship captains in days of yore had a lot more authority and autonomy than the constantly in radio contact politicians puppets we have today.

In a small ship paradigm Imperium where the Imperial Navy is weeks to months away from being able to receive orders a captain on the spot may need to exercise the authority of the warrant.

Course if it's misused - or you lose - a court martial and a trip to a prison planet of your choice could be on the cards.

As the OTU paradigm shifted the Kinunir becomes a ridiculous anomaly. In the large ship universe no way would a vessel their size carry the warrant, it would be in battleships and the like.

By the time of MT the Imperial Navy write ups just feel wrong to me - almost like they are fleets in constant contact with higher authority rater than the communication lagged autonomous fleets they should be.

 

[mike wightman]

IIRC, the Kinunir's warrant is Norris' second warrant.

Once I'll make a reason for - no way can I suspend belief enough to think he did it twice.

 

[Dragoner]

Once I'll make a reason for - no way can I suspend belief enough to think he did it twice.

It's canon though from MT maybe?

 

[rancke]

Yup, but it is a sort of general purpose - lend the bearer every assistance - sort of thing.

A warrant has two key elements. Who can use it and what can he use it for. A general purpose warrant can be used to create new Imperial nobles, start wars, allow member worlds to secede. Basically anything less than approving a new emperor or abolishing the Imperium. That's not the sort of power you'd want just anybody to wield. I'm positive that it would be issued only to people that Strephon trusted to a most unusual degree.

Just for a moment go back to when the Kinunir class ships are state of the art battle cruisers - prior to the HG paradigm shift. A time when there weren't a thousand Imperial ships per sub sector.

I'd rather not. Even in a small ship universe that is absolute nonsense. Indeed, in a small ship universe you'd have a lot more ships than in a large ship universe.

But be that as it may, I see no point in coming up with an explanation that doesn't work for the current Traveller Universe.

What is being postulated is the standard practice of equipping a ship's captain with the authority to overrule whatever local authority in times of extremis.

That's what the high nobles are for.

Ship captains in days of yore had a lot more authority and autonomy than the constantly in radio contact politicians puppets we have today.

Indeed they did, but their authority never extended to overruling the authority of royal governors and viceroys. If they were under Admiralty orders they might be able to refuse an order from a governor, but otherwise they had to salute and obey. And they definitely never did have the authority to overrule a governor.

In a small ship paradigm Imperium where the Imperial Navy is weeks to months away from being able to receive orders a captain on the spot may need to exercise the authority of the warrant.

No place inside the Imperium is more than two jumps from a subsector capital -- three with jump-4. Many are only one jump away.

As the OTU paradigm shifted the Kinunir becomes a ridiculous anomaly. In the large ship universe no way would a vessel their size carry the warrant, it would be in battleships and the like.

I disagree. They wouldn't be in battleships either.

By the time of MT the Imperial Navy write ups just feel wrong to me - almost like they are fleets in constant contact with higher authority rater than the communication lagged autonomous fleets they should be.

A fleet would have plenty of jump-6 couriers, so they would be in reasonably constant contact with the local duke. Not to mention that most of them would be headquartered at the duchy capital.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

It's canon though from MT maybe?

Oh I know of it's canonicity, but I think it is very sloppy for the DGP folks to use the same trick twice.

The only way I reconcile it is that Noris used the warrant recovered from the Kinunir to take local command during the FFW. He realised that the tactics being employed by the Sector Duke's puppet naval commander were deeply flawed, and Santanochev didn't have the strategic vision to win. Since it would take months to communicate with Delphine and get the situation resolved he played his only card - an illegally obtained warrant.

The elevation to Archduke prior to news of Strephon's assassination breaking wasn't the same type of warrant IMHO. It was an elevation to the position of Archduke, a patent of nobility.

 

[Dragoner]

Oh I know of it's canonicity, but I think it is very sloppy for the DGP folks to use the same trick twice.

The only way I reconcile it is that Noris used the warrant recovered from the Kinunir to take local command during the FFW. He realised that the tactics being employed by the Sector Duke's puppet naval commander were deeply flawed, and Santanochev didn't have the strategic vision to win. Since it would take months to communicate with Delphine and get the situation resolved he played his only card - an illegally obtained warrant.

The elevation to Archduke prior to news of Strephon's assassination breaking wasn't the same type of warrant. It was an elevation to the position of Archduke.

I'm not disagreeing with all that, I'm just mentioning that there are two supposed warrants held by Norris, for what it is worth. If somebody who doesn't know it, reads them, your statements could be confusing.

 

[rancke]

Oh I know of it's canonicity, but I think it is very sloppy for the DGP folks to use the same trick twice.

What use of a warrant are you talking about?

The only way I reconcile it is that Noris used the warrant recovered from the Kinunir to take local command during the FFW. He realised that the tactics being employed by the Sector Duke's puppet naval commander were deeply flawed, and Santanochev didn't have the strategic vision to win. Since it would take months to communicate with Delphine and get the situation resolved he played his only card - an illegally obtained warrant.

Norris is gone almost two years fetching his warrant. He could have been to Capital and back in that time.

The way I reconcile it is very simple: The Kinunir warrant and Norris' warrant are two different warrants (That the Kinunir warrant is a fake is really a side issue; if it had been genuine, Norris would either have forwarded it to its intended recipient when it was recovered or (more likely) have returned it to Strephon). I then use the canonical story of Norris' warrant; that he had asked for it years before, that Strephon had sent a light cruiser with it, that the cruiser had gone down on Algine, and that Norris secretly went to Algine to fetch it (He must have gotten stuck on Algine since it took him so long, but that's not implausible).


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

I supposed I'm interested in how other have seen the aftermath develop. What has happened that you've seen?

I've run the Shionthy portion of A:1 and heavily modified versions of the same most likely less than 10 times as either stand alone sessions or parts of campaigns. I've never ever seen any players seriously think about keeping the ship. They've always gone for the reward, even if that reward hadn't yet been specifically spelled out at the time they gained control of the ship.

If any players had ever tried to keep the ship, I was prepared to make their in-game lives a living hell. GDW even gave me a great tool to so: Prison Planet.

 

[Whipsnade]

As the OTU paradigm shifted the Kinunir becomes a ridiculous anomaly.

Very wisely put. LLB:5 changed much more than just the physical nature of starships.

 

[AlHazred]

As someone currently running A: 1 for my group, I've made some modifications that make it fit much better IMTU.

• IMTU, I assume that, while J-6 couriers are available to the Navy, they are not common or plentiful due to the expense of making and maintaining them.
• I figure the "small ship" design criteria for warships is a feature of the mindset of the Naval Old Guard, while "big ships" are a favorite of the New Guard. This explains the paradigm shift in standard Traveller ship designs without requiring me to make a huge number of adjustments to the published material. IMTU, Santanocheev is a popular figure among the New Guard, using his connections and charisma to advance his career.
• I picture an Imperium far less autocratic than some I've seen people advance on the boards. I figure, almost four thousand years of additional social dynamics, cultural experimentation, and governmental development have led to advances in governmental structure that we have a hard time conceiving of today; this is similar to the advances Traveller already assumes in technology. These advanced social systems are designed to mitigate authoritarian excesses and cripple dogmatic adherence to ideas and beliefs.
• I assume the Kinunir to have been originated under the Old Guard model, but completed after the New Guard took over starship construction. It would likely have had a lot of "project creep," similar to that of other megaprojects (such as the Big Dig in Boston). Due to the amount of money already invested in the project, the Naval propaganda machine hypes it up on launch (similar to the Titanic and it's "unsinkable" reputation) but the problems involved in producing a semi-autonomous ship (a big Vilani phobia) in small-ship format (denigrated by the New Guard) at huge expense (an economic no-no) cause the project to be quietly marginalized and then scuttled.

Under my model, the Imperium would prefer multiple potential authorities empowered to enforce doctrine in any particular part of space. Therefore, it would make some sort of sense for Strephon to generate the occasional blank warrant in order to empower his agents in exigent circumstances.

I assume Duke Norris' father (or potentially a different ancestor) foresaw a need for such a warrant, possibly due to shenanigans on the border in the aftermath of the Fourth Frontier War, and Strephon authorized one and sent it via the Kinunir; although the ships are still riding the initial hype of the launch, the Naval grapevine in Capital is already seething with rumors that the line will be abandoned and the ships phased out.

The mission launches "dark" -- due to the presence of the Imperial Warrant, the crew are instructed to draw absolutely no attention to themselves; the mission listed in official records is "routine patrol."

The Kinunir, being a computer intelligence, at some point realizes that its future scenarios are limited to scrapping or early obsolescence. Surreptitiously, it feeds trojans into every suit of battle dress, the PGMPs and the man-portable laser weapons via the "update" protocols inherent in the built-in computer systems of these high-technology items. The trojans are designed to allow it a back-door to disable the systems if it faces a direct physical threat to its computer cores.

En-route to Regina, the trojans are discovered by a tech; it's likely that the fact that contact with locals was minimized meant that the crew felt forced to redo regular tasks to while away free time. The computer dummies its logs to show the marine tech contingent logged into the system when the trojans were installed. The captain has the whole tech contingent put in the brig until it can be determined who was responsible, but the computer knows its only a matter of time until it is caught. He then has the computer run diagnostics to remove the tampering; of course, the computer generates false negatives, leaving the trojans intact while reporting that it has removed them.

The ship takes the initiative once the crew stops at Paya to refuel, feeding incorrect coordinates into the navcomputer to cause it to jump to Shionthy; its data suggests that the presence of antimatter asteroids will minimize its exposure to humans while the radio interference reduces the possibility of someone catching the transponder transmission. The last shift before arrival, it uses its control over the life support systems to lower the atmosphere levels in the quarters sections with off-duty personnel, guaranteeing they will be out of commission without having to use its anti-hijack technology, which would set off alarms on the command deck.

Once arriving out-system (and reporting its arrival as a "misjump"), the ship generates a false reading indicating the presence of a disabled vessel caught in the trojan point of one of the gas giants. The remaining marines suit up; most of them leave the ship once the crew has brought the ship close to the asteroidal debris in the trojan position, while a few remain on-board as security. It activates the trojans, spaces the command crew, and goes into low power mode.

My current thinking is one quick-thinking command crew member jettisons the last of the fuel, forcing the ship to remain where it is, but I'm not sure yet if that makes the most sense.

 

[MCEvans]

My thoughts on this have changed since I became a member of CotI.
1st - this is a limited run ship class even when proposed
2nd - with one exception this class of ship is not encountered outside of the Spinward Marches*
3rd - in light of 1 & 2 this was a Sector Navy Project. Headed up by a Subsector Duke for prestige.
4th and last - these ships are used to 'wave the flag' or 'rattle the saber' in the back waters of the Marches as the need arises.

*The exception is in the Vegan Autonomous Region in the Solomani Rim. There's a trip to deliver a gift for you.

As for the Warrant - make it a non-issue
The envelope was opened without the right protocols in place so "as the characters start planning what to do with the Warrant 'VOID' appears in big red letters imbedded within the paper its self. Thus the party's dreams of power faded before them." :devil:
This little idea can kill the 2 warrant and real or fake warrant debates :rofl::rofl:

 

[rancke]

We're straying from the original post, but I guess we're still somewhat on topic.

The Kinunir was published at a time when the universe of the 3rd Imperium was very far from well-defined. The biggest ships were 5000T. Kinunirs were fully one quarter that size. Four of them were a force to be reckoned with.

Then things changed. I guess someone realized just what the industrial potential of high-tech worlds with billions of inhabitants was. The biggest ships are now 1,000,000T. Cruisers range from 20,000T to 100,000T and they are built by the score and deployed in squadrons. 1,250T vessels are escorts, and not very big escorts either. There are escorts (like the Sloans) that can go toe to toe with four Kinunirs at once. And a production run of 24 is NOT impressive.

I submit that a reimagining (if that's the word I want) of the Kinunirs will involve making a choice of either keeping the size and reducing the importance or keeping the importance and increasing the size to a 75,000 or even bigger cruiser. If you're aiming for a reasonable amount of plausibility, that is.

In some ways the second choice has its advantages. It would make the Gaesh a much likelier prison hulk (at least IMO) and it would make it much likelier that gifting some of them to the Vegans could be a genuine mark of respect rather than a blatant insult ("A single small non-standard escort? Just the thing we need; how nice.")

Nevertheless, it would be a thousand pities to "lose" one of the few sets of deckplans we have of ships in that size range, so in the following I'll be concentrating on suggestions for the first choice.

Right, then. Small size, limited production run, at least two different experimental devices (black globe and computer). To me that screams R&D project. So here's my suggestion for a Kinunir revision:

In 1016, a survey expedition found an Ancients site on Lesser, the smaller of Knorbes' two continents. The Imperial Navy assumed control of the site and soon located a cache of over 2000 operating black globe generators. The Navy set up several separate research projects to attempt to reverse-engineer the generators. One of these projects were set up under the auspices of the Spinward Marches sector command.

Over the next 50 years, interest (and funding) for the project waned as the years went by with little or no results. In 1164 the project was suspended for two years following reports that a rival project in Gushemege had solved the problem, only to be resumed when field testing of the Gushemege device resulted in the destruction of the heavy cruiser Tranquility.

In 1169 came a breakthrough that resulted in a prototype black globe generator, and the question of field testing arose. The specter of the Tranquility disaster made the Admiralty reluctant to permit other serving ships to be used, and at first it was proposed that an old civilian freighter be bought and used as the test bed, but a suitable vessel was not found. It was then that Sector Admiral (E) Lady Abigail Rorise proposed the construction of a new class of ship specifically designed to serve as test beds.

The original concept called for a light cruiser of around 25,000T, designated a 'frontier cruiser'. As funding for the project proved difficult to find, compromise was piled on compromise, until the design had shrunk to a 1,250T escort. Nevertheless, the 'frontier cruiser' designation remained.

In the end the ships were funded in conjunction between the Imperial Navy, the Duchy of Glisten Navy, and the Duchy of Regina Navy[*].

[*] This is the reason why the marines on the Luuru don't all have battle dress; they're Duchy of Regina marines, not Imperial marines. ​

The ships were all built in the Marches (Mars Shipyard is named after the god of war, not located on Sol IV). I have two mutually exclusive explanations for how the Regal Splendor (ex-Shuruppak) got palmed off on the Vegans, and I can't decide which one I like best. Either it was a very elaborate insult to some powerful Vegan tuihur that would have been obliged to solemnly thank the Emperor for his ridiculous gift, or the offspring of some very high-ranking Vegan served a tour of duty in the Spinward Marches and either did something heroic or had his life saved while serving on the Shuruppak, making the gift a genuine compliment of high significance to the Vegans.

No.   Name          Navy   Laid down   1st Flgt    Builder        Fate
9512  Shulgi          I   017-1074    243-1077    Ling Standard  in service
9513  Zaggisi         I   123-1074    243-1077    Mars           in service
9514  Kinunir         I   127-1074    240-1077    General        lost 1088
9515  Shulgiili       I   364-1074    264-1077    GSB, AG        in service
9516  Allamu          R   101-1075    134-1078    Clan Severn    lost 1084
9517  Enki Kalamma    G   252-1075    293-1079    Yard 17        in service
9518  Regal Splendor  I   253-1075    234-1079    Yard 17        to Vega 1092
9519  Markashi        I   259-1075    129-1079    Yard 17        in service
9520  Apishal         G   254-1077    015-1080    Ling Standard  in service
9521  Ninkur Sagga    R   009-1078    057-1080    General        lost 1084
9522  Mukhaldim       G   100-1078    143-1088    Mars           in service
9523  Kagukhasaggan   G   345-1077    225-1081    GSB, AG        in service
9524  Kharkar         I   210-1078    113-1082    Clan Severn    in service
9525  Agidda          R   085-1078    325-1083    Yard 17        in service
9526  Luuru           R   090-1080    360-1083    Yard 17        in service
9527  Ukushki Sar     G   095-1080    120-1084    Yard 17        in service
9528  Gaesh           R   210-1083    010-1087    General        paid off 1098
9529  Ishmeilum       I   270-1082    125-1086    Clan Severn    in service
9530  Urshu           R   128-1085    341-1088    GSB, AG        in service
9531  Adamdum         R   140-1086    247-1089    Clan Severn    in service
9532  Adda Dubsar     G   292-1087    -           General        scrapped 1089
9533  -               G   -           -           Yard 17        -
9534  -               R   -           -           Yard 17        -
9535  -               G   -           -           Yard 17        -

Imperial Navy: 

No.   Name          Navy   Laid down   1st Flgt    Builder        Fate
9512  Shulgi          I   017-1074    243-1077    Ling Standard  in service
9513  Zaggisi         I   123-1074    243-1077    Mars           in service
9514  Kinunir         I   127-1074    240-1077    General        lost 1088
9515  Shulgiili       I   364-1074    264-1077    GSB, AG        in service
9518  Regal Splendor  I   253-1075    234-1079    Yard 17        to Vega 1092
9519  Markashi        I   259-1075    129-1079    Yard 17        in service
9524  Kharkar         I   210-1078    113-1082    Clan Severn    in service
9529  Ishmeilum       I   270-1082    125-1086    Clan Severn    in service

Regina Navy: 
No.   Name            N   Laid down   1st Flgt    Builder        Fate
9516  Allamu          R   101-1075    134-1078    Clan Severn    lost 1084
9521  Ninkur Sagga    R   009-1078    057-1080    General        lost 1084
9525  Agidda          R   085-1078    325-1083    Yard 17        in service
9526  Luuru           R   090-1080    360-1083    Yard 17        in service
9528  Gaesh           R   210-1083    010-1087    General        paid off 1098
9530  Urshu           R   128-1085    341-1088    GSB, AG        in service
9531  Adamdum         R   140-1086    247-1089    Clan Severn    in service
9534  -               R   -           -           Yard 17        -

Glisten Navy: 
No.   Name          Navy   Laid down   1st Flgt    Builder        Fate
9517  Enki Kalamma    G   252-1075    293-1079    Yard 17        in service
9520  Apishal         G   254-1077    015-1080    Ling Standard  in service
9522  Mukhaldim       G   100-1078    143-1088    Mars           in service
9523  Kagukhasaggan   G   345-1077    225-1081    GSB, AG        in service
9527  Ukushki Sar     G   095-1080    120-1084    Yard 17        in service
9532  Adda Dubsar     G   292-1087    -           General        scrapped 1089
9533  -               G   -           -           Yard 17        -
9535  -               G   -           -           Yard 17        -

Shipyards: General is on Regina. Clan Severn is on Rhylanor. Ling Standard is on Mora. Yard 17 is on Mora. Mars is in Glisten. GSB, AG is on Trin (?).

Notes: Each of the eight shipyards (if we count Yard 17 as three) were supposed to build three ships. For some reason Mars Yard took ten years to finish the Mukhaldim. For some other reason Ling Standard couldn't/wouldn't/wasn't allowed to build its third ship. So Clan Severn and General each got a fourth contract.​

(I have a half-finished adventure that tells of why someone faked an Imperial Warrant and how the Kinunir wound up in the Ragnarok Belt of the Shionthy System, but that's a different matter altogether.)

Comments?


Hans

 

[far-trader]

We're straying from the original post, but I guess we're still somewhat on topic.

Sure

The Kinunir was published at a time when the universe of the 3rd Imperium was very far from well-defined. The biggest ships were 5000T. Kinunirs were fully one quarter that size. Four of them were a force to be reckoned with.

I'd disagree, though not strenuously. I think it was pretty well defined as a small ship universe, an area of frontiers, where one man (or one ship) could make a difference. Your own notes above reflect that definition

Then things changed. I guess someone realized just what the industrial potential of high-tech worlds with billions of inhabitants was. The biggest ships are now 1,000,000T. Cruisers range from 20,000T to 100,000T and they are built by the score and deployed in squadrons.

And said someone(s) didn't fully appreciate (so the "update" failed to reflect) the physics and economics required to support that.

In my opinion a (the?) big reason for High Guard was much simpler. Said someone(s) saw Star Wars and reacted "KEWL! Traveller MUST have HUGE star destroyers!!"

...damn the consequences and full speed ahead.

 

[far-trader]

<snippage>

Comments?

I like it, a lot, for a Big Ship Universe explanation...

...I'm just not a fan of the BSU