When is a TL threshold declared official?

[Birdrock]

Ok, I'm admitting that TL in an empire is a reality, and yet has to be a metric.

As Hans said, a percentage of worlds have to be onboard at a new TL in order for a TL to be reached.

What are the possible ranges for that threshold?

Look at the Marches in 1105. By itself, is it TL 15?

Is it Economic, military, both? Naval bases on worlds of given TL?

Or, look at sector data for the Rebellion era. Is the Imperium TL16?

 

[Birdrock]

Maybe it's a leading indicator. So just because the Imperium is suddenly TL 15 doesn't mean all the ships and guns and armor etc will just as suddenly be TL 15. The spread of new technology has to start small and local; maybe that's as much as we can extract from the tech charts.

But that would hardly be useful, don't you think?

How about something more like: one world per subsector?

Potential example: Darrian. Tho it had far-flung outposts, it was ever concentrated on one subsector, and is considered to have reached TL 16, but we know that was only reached on their home world.

Or how about population? Once a percentage of the total population is at that TL, then theyre there. Once again, Darrian, with a large percentage of people on the home world.

 

[samuelvss]

a SWAG

I think for the Imperium to be call TLF, then the majority of its population must reside in a TLF Sector.

As I count Imperial Worlds at TLF at 1105, it is only 4: Glisten, Mora, Rhylanor, and Trin. Each is industrial, and high population (split between pops A and 9). Arguably, these could supply the imperial military. This is out of some 271 imperial worlds in the Marches, though. I do not think we can call the Sector TLF; TLD would even stretch it. There are 1.5% of the Imperial worlds in the Marches capable of producing or maintaining TLF goods, or an average of .4 per Subsector (calling only 10 subsectors Imperial, for this purpose).

Now Dagudashaaq has 17 Imperial worlds at TL F and G that are not "Non-industrial," and most of these are Industrial, high population. These are the worlds that are capable of producing and exporting quantities of TLF goods. Another 29 worlds are TLF or TLG, but are non-indstrial, often low population. I would say these worlds are capable of supporting and maintaining TLF goods, but not producing them in any quantity significant for either mass export or self-sufficiency. This would, IMHO, allow for this Sector to be considered TLF. Maybe this is a rule of thumb: at least 5% of worlds within an average Sector are TLF, and 2.5% are capable of mass production and export (TLF, In and not Lo). There is an an average of about 3 worlds capable of producing or maintaining per subsector; I think 2 would be a minimum.

 

[rancke]

As of 1105, tech levels 11 to 16 are described as:

11 Average Imperial
12 Average Imperial
13 Above average Imperial
14 Above average Imperial
15 Technical maximum Imperial
16 Occasional non-Imperial

[The Spinward Marches, p. 39]​

So the Imperium's tech level of 15 denotes its maximum, not its average. This gets complicated a bit when MT retcons TL16 to be the High Common TL of a sizable number of worlds (24 in Massilia Sector alone). Perhaps all those worlds were just on the verge of reaching TL16 in 1105 and did it in the decade in between. Personally, I would ret-retcon those worlds to be borderline TL16 in one technological field each, rather than fully mature TL16 worlds, but that's just me.


Hans

 

[Starviking]

So the Imperium's tech level of 15 denotes its maximum, not its average. This gets complicated a bit when MT retcons TL16 to be the High Common TL of a sizable number of worlds (24 in Massilia Sector alone). Perhaps all those worlds were just on the verge of reaching TL16 in 1105 and did it in the decade in between. Personally, I would ret-retcon those worlds to be borderline TL16 in one technological field each, rather than fully mature TL16 worlds, but that's just me.

I've always taken the maximum tech to read "what the Imperium and it's agencies can provide", i.e. Imperial infrastructure. Therefore the Imperial Navy can always get its ships serviced at IN Naval Bases, whether TL12, 13, 14 or 15. The same holds for Scout Bases, and Starport Authority ports - TL-15 tech is available. So the Imperium becomes Tech 15 when Tech 15 ships can operate through the Imperium without much hassle. Ditto for the IN, Scouts, etc.

My take on Tech 16 is that it is available in the area of Tech 16 worlds - but not far from them. So if you're operating a Tech 16 Yacht in Massilia Sector - thing will be fine, but if you're hunting pirates in Sarid Subsector of the Old Expanses, you'd better have a back-up for that Tech 16 neural pistol you picked on Dethenes. No real need to limit availability to one field, as that Tech-16 isn't going to be available across the Imperium. Then again, limiting fields makes no difference across the Imperium either.

 

[rancke]

I've always taken the maximum tech to read "what the Imperium and it's agencies can provide", i.e. Imperial infrastructure. Therefore the Imperial Navy can always get its ships serviced at IN Naval Bases, whether TL12, 13, 14 or 15. The same holds for Scout Bases, and Starport Authority ports - TL-15 tech is available. So the Imperium becomes Tech 15 when Tech 15 ships can operate through the Imperium without much hassle. Ditto for the IN, Scouts, etc.

Sounds good to me.

My take on Tech 16 is that it is available in the area of Tech 16 worlds - but not far from them. So if you're operating a Tech 16 Yacht in Massilia Sector - thing will be fine, but if you're hunting pirates in Sarid Subsector of the Old Expanses, you'd better have a back-up for that Tech 16 neural pistol you picked on Dethenes. No real need to limit availability to one field, as that Tech-16 isn't going to be available across the Imperium. Then again, limiting fields makes no difference across the Imperium either.

There's no need, no. Any more than there's a need to keep TL17 and TL18 Imperial worlds non-existent, unless one wants to keep the setting self-consistent. I'd just like to reconcile those so-called TL16 worlds with canonical CT statements about TL15 being the highest tech level available in the Imperium. Even a couple of fully mature TL16 high-population worlds would be enough to churn out TL16 stuff in quantities that would make them available all over the Imperium. Only to the elite, true, and probably at a hefty surcharge, but not all that rare. It's the fully mature bit that makes the difference, IMO. A TL15 world with a nascent TL16 industry in a single field would be producing in limited quantities. Good for gimmicks lent to PCs by rich and powerful patrons, but not available to PCs down at the local Gimmicks-R-Us no matter how much they're willing to pay.

Just my opinion.


Hans

 

[Peter Schutze]

>So the Imperium becomes Tech 15 when Tech 15 ships can operate through the Imperium without much hassle.


by that definition to operate "without much hassle" is either a push logistics problem or a much slower (probably 2 decade delay) while the key industrial / shipbuilding powerhouses heavily contracted to the navy upgrade their entire production chain

by defining it in terms of push logistics its basically ~2 years changeover to account for xboat/fast freighter lag once space hardware at the new TL starts rolling off one production line somewhere in the imperium in any sort of quantity. A good example of a push logistics driven force is the first world militaries especially the US on operatiions because they would be unable to sustain themselves off local resources.

 

[robject]

Push chain sounds like a logistics nightmare in interstellar terms...

 

[rancke]

by that definition to operate "without much hassle" is either a push logistics problem or a much slower (probably 2 decade delay) while the key industrial / shipbuilding powerhouses heavily contracted to the navy upgrade their entire production chain

by defining it in terms of push logistics its basically ~2 years changeover to account for xboat/fast freighter lag once space hardware at the new TL starts rolling off one production line somewhere in the imperium in any sort of quantity. A good example of a push logistics driven force is the first world militaries especially the US on operatiions because they would be unable to sustain themselves off local resources.

It's more complicated than that, or can be. What if the Imperial Navy decides that jump-6 ships are a military secret?[*] Now the IN has two countervailing motives: To keep jump-6 drive manufacture a closely guarded secret and to expand the support structure for its jump-6 ships. That should be good for some delay in developments.

[*] While this is not canon, it is a way to explain why the X-boats came to be so marginalized as they are in the Classic Era, still only jump-4 while "NavyNet" conveys Imperial correspondence by jump-6 Fleet Couriers[**]. My suggested explanation is that when jump-5 was invented, the IN kept it a military secret for several decades. So the Imperial Bureaucracy began sending orders and reports by navy couriers (originals by X-Net, copies by NavyNet, but with electronic documents, what's the difference?) When jcommercial pressure eventually caused the jump-5 drive to be declassified, there was no pressure to upgrade the X-boats. The same thing happened when the jump-6 drive was invented.

[**] Yes, I know the official explanation ("Treat the citizens like mushrooms"). I don't think it works.​

Also keep in mind that Starviking's definition is a pretty subjective one. Essentially it involves Imperial sociologists selecting a date and claiming that THIS was when the Imperium became TL15. My guess is that '400' and '700' and '1000' are pretty inexact dates.


Hans

 

[Starviking]

Also keep in mind that Starviking's definition is a pretty subjective one. Essentially it involves Imperial sociologists selecting a date and claiming that THIS was when the Imperium became TL15. My guess is that '400' and '700' and '1000' are pretty inexact dates.

Definitions might be inexact, but there'll be a lot of definite data out there - Starport Authority data, IN and Scouts data, TNS reports. Inexactness might come about through quibbling as to what constitutes an advance in tech level, e.g. "is the new Quadrinium Fusion technology that much of an advance on out trusted Bi-flow tech? Let's wait and see..."

 

[Starviking]

Even a couple of fully mature TL16 high-population worlds would be enough to churn out TL16 stuff in quantities that would make them available all over the Imperium. Only to the elite, true, and probably at a hefty surcharge, but not all that rare.

But can it be maintained?

 

[McPerth]

As I count Imperial Worlds at TLF at 1105, it is only 4: Glisten, Mora, Rhylanor, and Trin. Each is industrial, and high population (split between pops A and 9). Arguably, these could supply the imperial military. This is out of some 271 imperial worlds in the Marches, though. I do not think we can call the Sector TLF; TLD would even stretch it. There are 1.5% of the Imperial worlds in the Marches capable of producing or maintaining TLF goods, or an average of .4 per Subsector (calling only 10 subsectors Imperial, for this purpose).

True, but I guess most IN bases must be stuffed with TL 15 spare parts, or the fleet would be unable to keep functioning.

In FFW, both Jewell and Efate were cut from imperial lines, and one IN fleet was operating in each of them. A Jewell is TL 12 and Efate 13, that means (IMO) that they had to have enough TL 15 support in their bases to keep those fleets funcitional, ot they hat to canibalize quite a lot of ships to keep the others funcional.

Of course, TL 15 trained personnel was not the problem (the ships themselves carried them, but spares, ammunition (missiles), and so on, must have been in the base, or they should have been in quite short supply, and IN fleets there effectively neutralized (if not destroyed, as far as opperativeness is concerned).

 

[robject]

True, but I guess most IN bases must be stuffed with TL 15 spare parts, or the fleet would be unable to keep functioning.

In FFW, both Jewell and Efate were cut from imperial lines, and one IN fleet was operating in each of them. A Jewell is TL 12 and Efate 13, that means (IMO) that they had to have enough TL 15 support in their bases to keep those fleets funcitional, ot they hat to canibalize quite a lot of ships to keep the others funcional.

...

If Marc is correct, the battleships themselves are all the support needed to maintain a TL15 operation. Think of a modern aircraft carrier as a useful metaphor there.

 

[robject]

...
So the Imperium's tech level of 15 denotes its maximum, not its average. This gets complicated a bit when MT retcons TL16 to be the High Common TL of a sizable number of worlds (24 in Massilia Sector alone). Perhaps all those worlds were just on the verge of reaching TL16 in 1105 and did it in the decade in between. Personally, I would ret-retcon those worlds to be borderline TL16 in one technological field each, rather than fully mature TL16 worlds, but that's just me.


Hans

I think Hans is right, and I also think a ret-con here is appropriate.


P.S. Hans, where did you find the 400, 700, 1000 year numbers? And, more importantly, what would you guess are the actual dates?

TL C at -30?
TL D at 425?
TL E at 750?
TL F at 950?

 

[rancke]

P.S. Hans, where did you find the 400, 700, 1000 year numbers?

MT:Referee's Companion, p. 34

"Below is a chart of the tech levels achieved by the major interstellar powers.

          [B]THE FIRST IMPERIUM[/B]

[I]Imperial  TL   Comments[/I]
-----------------------------------------------------------------
-9235         9    Vilani discover Jump1
-8900        10    Vilani sphere reaches about 10 parsecs in size
-5430        11    Vilanit discover Jump2

          [B]THE SECOND IMPERIUM
  (Originally the Terran Confederation)[/B]

[I]Imperial  TL   Comments[/I]
-----------------------------------------------------------------
-2431         9   Terrans discover Jump1
-2408        10   First Terra/Vilani interstellar war ends
-2398        11   Terrans discover Jump2
-2210        12   Terrans discover Jump3

          [B]THE THIRD IMPERIUM
  (Originally the Sylean Federation)[/B]

[I]Imperial  TL   Comments[/I]
-----------------------------------------------------------------
-1776         10   Syleans maintain minimal interstellar trade
 -650         11   Sylean Federation established
 -150         12   Robot manufacturing reestablished
  300         13   Vargr Campaigns taking place (210-348)
  700         14   Xboat system being built (624-718)
 1000         15   Solomani Rim War taking place (998-1002)

Note: I misremembered about the date for TL13. It's 300, not 400.

And, more importantly, what would you guess are the actual dates?

For the invention of jump4, -5, and -6, you mean? That would depend on a lot of things. I'd guess infrastructure growth would be more rapid in the antebellum period and the Imperium -- the important part of it, anyway -- was smaller, so call it a generation? Putting the invention of jump4 at around 270. For jump5 and jump6, are we accepting my theory of why the X-boats weren't updated (that the Imperial Navy made jump5 and later jump6 a military secret and kept it so until mercantile interests prevailed upon the emperor to declassify it)? That would add several decades. But jump5 can't have been invented, or even on the horizon, in 624 when the X-boat project was inargurated.

If it was up to me, I'd take 270, 650, and 950 as the preliminary dates and then roll dice to establish the actual dates. Something like this, perhaps?

263 Jump-4 invented.
656 Jump-5 invented. Classified by IN.
678 Jump-5 declassified.
934 Jump-6 invented. Classified by IN.
980 Jump-6 declassified.​

Note: If you don't think commercial interests would be strong enough (or have motive enough) to lobby for declassification, maybe it becomes declassified when enough high-tech, high-pop member planets invent it for themselves.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

How would people know what exactly is TL 16? Most of the TL year designations are arbitrary hindsight, not really a solid milestone. I read also in a JTAS about breaking down TL's even more, like TL 6.1, etc. .

 

[McPerth]

If Marc is correct, the battleships themselves are all the support needed to maintain a TL15 operation. Think of a modern aircraft carrier as a useful metaphor there.

I believe this may be true in peacetime opperations, but in FFW, 125th fleet remained out of supply for more than a year and a half, stranded on a TL 12 system, and fighting with variable intensity all along this time.

I don't believe a Carrier Group could support that without bein resupplied, and I'm not talking only of fuel (easy to obtain in OTU).

I have serious doubts that the 125th could have been able to do that if not for the spares, missiles, etc stored on Jewell's IN base. Otherwhise, they'd run out of missiles quite early, and damage adn breackdowns would have reduced it to a mere shadow, effectively taking it out of commision as a fleet in less than half this time (or reduced to TL 12 with hasty refits, probably not done properly, and so leading to more breackdowns).

As the Spindward Marches supplement doesn't talk of it as being effectively destroyed, I must assume they had access to TL 15 stuff enough to keep it as a cohesive fighting fleet.

EDIT:Equally I believe if a Carrier Group was taken out of supply and in combat for more than a year, withut spares nor ammunition to refill, it will end being just more than floating junk quite soon, as the aircrafts began to need spares and the ships ammunition. And if they had only access to a coal station build it Victorian age, that would help quite poorly (even assuming they had unlimitied fuel, as should be in OTU's battleships)