Why is the Imperial Navy so bad at indoctrinating recruits?

[LeperColony]

If MegaTraveller is any indication, the Imperial Navy is really bad at conditioning its members to demonstrate loyalty to the emperor and to the central state in general. Instead, their allegiance seems to be based in the geographical region in which they are stationed.

Why is this?

Do most Imperial Navy (and other services I suppose) mostly serve in areas near their homes? I could see that as simplifying matters for the Navy. But even if that were true, you'd think the higher level officers would be shuffled around frequently enough so that they don't "go native."

In your opinion, why do the uniformed services of the 3I so readily divide into separate factions?

 

[Enoki]

I would postulate the same reasons the later period of the Imperial Roman Empire had a similar problem with their legions:

Diversity.

The Imperium is made up of what?, dozens of races many of which are truly alien in nature. Then there are a number of human variants on top of that. How do you indoctrinate a bewildering array of recruits into a common set of thoughts and values when they have spent their entire lives in a culture that is possibly so foreign in values and thinking that the recruits simply cannot comprehend what is ask of them?
Then you have culturial problems between races. Vilani - Human, Vargr- Aslan, etc. If you start mixing the various races together that might result in serious problems too. Segregating them will result in less of a common culture and values.
Add in nobles who think their part of the empire is their own little fiefdom, the communications problems inherent in how Traveller works and you have a navy, well military, that is more likely loyal first to some warlord or local noble than the emperor himself.
I would think the emperor would play this much like Chang Kai Shek did in China in the first half of the 20th Centruy where he had the same situation with his military. That is, he allows each warlord / noble considerable autonomy. Some of these leaders might have gruges towards others and might also fight among themselves.
The emperor would act as referee and so long as things didn't get too nasty he would largely stay on the sidelines. All he would demand was they remain loyal and occasionally do the crown a favor or two in exchange for things like better equipment, money, power, or a royal favor.
To back his position the emperor would have a sizable force of his own under his command and might also have a powerful mercenary one under the command of loyal general / admiral or even possibly a foreign general /admiral who is politically 'safe.'

Chang's China did this. The Byzantine empire did it. The late Imperial Roman empire did it. It works fine against local threats and third rate powers. Where the system falls apart is that some well orgainzed and led military shows up and starts making trouble. Then the local warlords are not of one mind to stop them and individually don't have the power. One by one the various warlords / nobles fall to the orgainzed military power and eventually the empire collapses.

 

[rancke]

If MegaTraveller is any indication, the Imperial Navy is really bad at conditioning its members to demonstrate loyalty to the emperor and to the central state in general. Instead, their allegiance seems to be based in the geographical region in which they are stationed.

What do you base that on? AFAICR one of the MT books makes the point that the Imperium worked just fine as long as there was an emperor that everyone agreed on. I believe the phrase "one clear choice" was repeated ad nauseam. The whole regional choice thing arose because the Emperor and his two nexts in line was killed in one fell swoop, the third in line was rumored to have killed the second in line, and proceeded to stuff things up beyond recovery. It took a long (and pretty contrieved) concatenation of events to break the Imperium.

In your opinion, why do the uniformed services of the 3I so readily divide into separate factions?

Because without a clear choice, they look to their superiors to tell them who the Emperor is. Most of them supported the Emperor loyally. It just wasn't the same emperor.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

If MegaTraveller is any indication, the Imperial Navy is really bad at conditioning its members to demonstrate loyalty to the emperor and to the central state in general. Instead, their allegiance seems to be based in the geographical region in which they are stationed.

Why is this?

Do most Imperial Navy (and other services I suppose) mostly serve in areas near their homes? I could see that as simplifying matters for the Navy. But even if that were true, you'd think the higher level officers would be shuffled around frequently enough so that they don't "go native."

In your opinion, why do the uniformed services of the 3I so readily divide into separate factions?

A military unit is loyal to itself first and foremost: eg "band of brothers", it is part of human psychology.

 

[Carlobrand]

... In your opinion, why do the uniformed services of the 3I so readily divide into separate factions?

What in the world are you talking about? Really now, two civil wars, the occasional act of barratry and a tendency to go criminal on retirement are no evidence of problems in the Imperial uniformed services.

 

[Dragoner]

We also don't really know the character of the 3I military, they definitely might be the selling guns to the Ine Givar for skag money type of military, with a totally corrupt command structure; one hard push and the whole organization fell over breaking into pieces.

 

[Carlobrand]

I might point out that the last guy who criticized the Imperial military found himself in a prison hulk orbiting Pixie. We don't know how secure this site is - there may well be agents taking names even as we speak.

 

[Dragoner]

Wasn't he rescued by a daring bunch of adventurers and was last seen gone privateer in D268 or the Outrim void?

If one was SORAG, it would be easy to stay one step beyond the clutches of the powers that be...

 

[rancke]

Wasn't he rescued by a daring bunch of adventurers and was last seen gone privateer in D268 or the Outrim void?

The way I heard it, he'd been imprisoned by a cabal of mid-level duchy bureaucrats and wound up thriumphantly restored to his old life while most of the cabal was tried in court and sentenced to 30 years of his Imperial Majesty's board and lodging. I'm told Norris was livid when he found out what had been going on under his nose.

Nothing to do with the military at all.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

The way I heard it, he'd been imprisoned by a cabal of mid-level duchy bureaucrats and wound up thriumphantly restored to his old life while most of the cabal was tried in court and sentenced to 30 years of his Imperial Majesty's board and lodging. I'm told Norris was livid when he found out what had been going on under his nose.

Nothing to do with the military at all.


Hans

What could Norris do about Delphine anyways? Who controls the military? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? The Imperium forever in fear of another "Emperor by Right of Fleet Control", tried to keep the command disunified and competing amongst itself, thus sector Admirals such as Santanocheev, who owed more to politics than ability, rising to the top. Much like an Ash with worm-eaten heartwood, the IN stood a mighty ruin, waiting for the next great storm to sweep it away.

 

[LeperColony]

What do you base that on? AFAICR one of the MT books makes the point that the Imperium worked just fine as long as there was an emperor that everyone agreed on. I believe the phrase "one clear choice" was repeated ad nauseam. The whole regional choice thing arose because the Emperor and his two nexts in line was killed in one fell swoop, the third in line was rumored to have killed the second in line, and proceeded to stuff things up beyond recovery. It took a long (and pretty contrieved) concatenation of events to break the Imperium.

Even if we accept your premise, there are plenty of factions that have no claim to being a "clear choice," like Daibei and Norris. Neither of them deny Lucan's right to the throne, they just go their own way and the military follows them. Additionally, those who express doubt as to Lucan's claim like Margaret and Bzrk, still have no right of their own but their regional military forces follow along too.

Only Dulinor's breakaway faction has an actual "claim" to the throne, and he killed the emperor. If I were the emperor, I would make personal loyalty to me a focus of any military training and indoctrination, so that at least a sizable minority would have problems following my killer over my heir.

 

[aramis]

Even if we accept your premise, there are plenty of factions that have no claim to being a "clear choice," like Daibei and Norris. Neither of them deny Lucan's right to the throne, they just go their own way and the military follows them. Additionally, those who express doubt as to Lucan's claim like Margaret and Bzrk, still have no right of their own but their regional military forces follow along too.

Only Dulinor's breakaway faction has an actual "claim" to the throne, and he killed the emperor. If I were the emperor, I would make personal loyalty to me a focus of any military training and indoctrination, so that at least a sizable minority would have problems following my killer over my heir.

Norris actually DOES deny Lucan's claim - by virtue of not having been confirmed by the Moot, Lucan is still Prince, not Emperor. Norris also claims the title "Regent" and denies wanting the throne for himself. He's also got TWO hostile "rebel" domains between him and Capitol, so it is kind of moot. (pun intended.)

Let's review the claims -

Lucan - By Right of Inheritance. Ignores requirement for moot confirmation, and as acting emperor, bars the moot from meeting to confirm him (or more likely, refuse to do so and appoint someone else as Emperor). Shown as a ruthless sociopath.

Dulinor - By Right of Assassination. Doesn't hold Capitol, doesn't quite meet up to the prior standards of the right of assassination. Archduke of Illellish. Had broad internal support for taking the throne within Illellish, and extant obedience as Archduke from most of the Dukes and barons of Illellish.

Margaret - By right of inheritence, with following caveats: Lucan's inelligible for his high crime of Murder (of Varian), Dulinor didn't hold the throne, so is just a criminal. Requires the moot to first reject Lucan and Dulinor to be a valid choice.

Domain of Sol - No claim, but fighting a local war and hoping to hell not to get drawn into the civil war as well. Pretty well ignored.

Craig of Diabei - There is no clear emperor (until the moot elects one). Until then, my best bet is to sit it out. And, no, Illellish won't go after Dulinor.

Brzk: I want to be Emperor, but since it's clear no one else considers me fit, I'll preserve antares as an independent state.

Real Strephon: By right of having been confirmed by the Moot. Dulinor got the wrong man. Lucan's gone off the deep end. Not believed by many. (Establihsed in canon to have actually been the real Strephon)

Vland: The Vilani Cultural Region simply reverted to being the 1st Imperium - the constituent megacorps were still around, and in their cultural region, still running things. For the locals, no change, other than the ouster of the local Archduke from power, and new enemies on 3 sides, plus a neutral and an old enemy.

 

[Strummist]

Consider the United Nations today. They can, in theory, mount the largest military operations on the planet. A Vilani scout report would rate them as the dominant power. When on UN business, troops carry out UN orders, wear the blue hats.

In all other cases they are loyal to the point of indoctrination to their own country in various degrees. Or if not loyal, then powered by the universal motivator: fear of Sergeants.

Even within countries there's intense inter-service rivalry, and between regiments and regions, all the way down the level. (This is useful, e.g. for quelling mutinies, and more positively to provide a high standard of training).

Historically when large states have become many smaller ones, I'd guess that individual regiments chose sides en masse. It's just a guess.

 

[LeperColony]

Norris actually DOES deny Lucan's claim - by virtue of not having been confirmed by the Moot, Lucan is still Prince, not Emperor. Norris also claims the title "Regent" and denies wanting the throne for himself. He's also got TWO hostile "rebel" domains between him and Capitol, so it is kind of moot. (pun intended.)

Actually, Norris pays homage to Lucan. Later, when the Marches are cut off by the Vargr he assumes control of his domain "in the name of the Imperium." He doesn't repudiate Lucan until after the Arrival Vengence returns and he says "there is no emperor."

Margaret - By right of inheritence, with following caveats: Lucan's inelligible for his high crime of Murder (of Varian), Dulinor didn't hold the throne, so is just a criminal. Requires the moot to first reject Lucan and Dulinor to be a valid choice.

Whatever is true about Lucan's illegitimacy is even more so for her.

Domain of Sol - No claim, but fighting a local war and hoping to hell not to get drawn into the civil war as well. Pretty well ignored.

I'm pretty sure it says somewhere that the Archduke of Sol has shown absolute loyalty to Lucan, in the hopes of receiving aid against the Solomani.

Craig of Diabei - There is no clear emperor (until the moot elects one). Until then, my best bet is to sit it out. And, no, Illellish won't go after Dulinor.

That's not the case at all. Craig never seems to deny that Lucan is the emperor. In fact, he implicitly indicates his allegiance when he says that it's not the job of "loyal sectors" to strip themselves of their fleets (Survival Margin, page 17). The same news story states that Craig "appealed to the Emperor to lessen the ship quota." You don't "appeal" to an "emperor" you don't recognize.

In fact, Craig's quote on pg 4 of Survival Margin makes it clear that he is turning his back on the Imperium in order to defend his own people. Whether or not this is a rational decision isn't my question. It's why the Imperial military services are so poorly conditioned that they accept this disintegration.

Brzk: I want to be Emperor, but since it's clear no one else considers me fit, I'll preserve antares as an independent state.

So again, why does the military go along with it? There must be some sort of systemic failure in Imperial training.

Vland: The Vilani Cultural Region simply reverted to being the 1st Imperium - the constituent megacorps were still around, and in their cultural region, still running things. For the locals, no change, other than the ouster of the local Archduke from power, and new enemies on 3 sides, plus a neutral and an old enemy.

The same question, why the Imperial uniformed services are so poorly conditioned that they simply adhere to the regional power.

 

[rancke]

What could Norris do about Delphine anyways?

Under what circumstances and for what reason? Where does Delphine come into the story of the imprisoned senator?

Who controls the military? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Under what circumstances and for what reason?

Historically, Norris managed to convince his peers to let him assume control rather than Delphine or the Duke of Deneb (or the dukes of Reft and Trojan Reach if they exist). All of them tacitly pretended to believe in Strephon's "practically the last act he ever did" elevation of Norris to the post of Archduke. And Delphine and the Duke of Deneb went along, regardless of what military forces they commanded.

Not that that has anything whatsoever to do with a wrongfully imprisoned politician in 1105.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

The same question, why the Imperial uniformed services are so poorly conditioned that they simply adhere to the regional power.

What do you mean by conditioned? Do you mean brainwashed? I can see that backfiring for recruitment.

 

[rancke]

Even if we accept your premise, there are plenty of factions that have no claim to being a "clear choice," like Daibei and Norris.

Hence "...and proceeded to stuff things up beyond recovery". Refusal to follow Lucan crops up when he demonstrates an inability to do the job.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

Under what circumstances and for what reason? Where does Delphine come into the story of the imprisoned senator?



Under what circumstances and for what reason?

Historically, Norris managed to convince his peers to let him assume control rather than Delphine or the Duke of Deneb (or the dukes of Reft and Trojan Reach if they exist). All of them tacitly pretended to believe in Strephon's "practically the last act he ever did" elevation of Norris to the post of Archduke. And Delphine and the Duke of Deneb went along, regardless of what military forces they commanded.

Not that that has anything whatsoever to do with a wrongfully imprisoned politician in 1105.


Hans

You mean the Senator in the Gash? Who knows what happened to him.

Norris lied and had an Imperial warrant, which the Sector Admiral made the choice to accept, one he had probably appointed using powers from his earlier warrant. That is how he becomes regent by canonical sources, no?

Still this just describes a confused leadership structure, not the character of the military; the military could still be corrupt and moribund overall.

 

[rancke]

You mean the Senator in the Gash? Who knows what happened to him.

If you quote something and add a comment, people are going to assume that your comment has something to do with the bit you quote. Yes, I mean the senator on the Gaesh. That's who I was talking about in the text you quoted.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

If you quote something and add a comment, people are going to assume that your comment has something to do with the bit you quote. Yes, I mean the senator on the Gaesh. That's who I was talking about in the text you quoted.


Hans

Yes, I know. My statement was definitive.