Why the Foreven sector?

[Blue Ghost]

I'm just curious why non-canonical would-be authors are restricted to the Foreven sector? What's the justification?

 

[mike wightman]

It's so that whatever they write doesn't affect the real OTU...

It's a model that's been used before - GDW designated areas of the OTU that other companies/writers could produce material for.

 

[aramis]

I'm just curious why non-canonical would-be authors are restricted to the Foreven sector? What's the justification?

it prevents some of the angst that de-canonization, as with the the DGP Sectors, causes the fan base. And the hassles of land grant.

 

[Whipsnade]

It's a model that's been used before - GDW designated areas of the OTU that other companies/writers could produce material for.

Not quite.

The CT-Era Land Grants were a way for GDW to subcontract the work needed to flesh out the early OTU. The Grantees would develop the sectors assigned to them while GDW only had to worry about the Marches and the Rim. While everything being written was official, the assigned boundaries meant nothing being written would overwrite the work being done elsewhere.

Just as importantly, the rest of the OTU was still essentially up for grabs. You could write outside of your grant with the only risk being that GDW wouldn't prevent someone else later overwriting your work.

In Mongoose's Foreven system, everyone wanting to write for the OTU and not write for Mongoose has to write in Foreven. There's a first come first serve model of sorts too, which means Foreven gets smaller with every release. More importantly, the rest of the OTU is strictly off limits.

Putting it another way, GDW had multiple reserves while Mongoose has a single ghetto.

It's telling that the more productive of the current third party licensees have chose to avoid the Foreven altogether and create their own non-OTU settings instead.

 

[far-trader]

... There's a first come first serve model of sorts too, which means Foreven gets smaller with every release.

I understood it was more a multiple parallel Foreven's meme.

That one author creating a specific Arglebargle IV does not invalidate another author's Arglebargle IV no matter how different the details. Nor prevent a later author from ignoring both the previous and totally reinventing Arglebargle IV again.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Well, I'm put out by it. I think Steve Cole created the Sargasso sector so "fans" could create anything they wanted for Star Fleet Battles, just so they could get into an official book and be part of SFB lore in an E-module sort of way. I'm guessing that's what's being done with Traveller here.

I guess my beef with it is that I think it hamstrings and limits potential would be authors like myself. I don't completely disagree with the logic behind the Foreven thing, because I see some of the reasoning, but I think a smarter thing to have done would have been to just require author's to stamp a disclaimer on their work.

I'm kind of burnt out on Traveller and games anyway, so keep in mind that my enthusiasm is tempered by that as well.

Thinking back on CT and MT, heck even with the D20 and SJG stuff that's been on the market, I don't see a real big "clash" of multiverses here; i.e. no "Crisis on Infinite OTUs" kind of thing happening. In fact I was always highly amazed that not only that more adventures were not published for the original CT setting given the vastness of the Imperium and her neighbors, but that maybe four at most of the CT adventures took place outside the Spinward Marches. That always struck me as odd.

I'm hopeful that when T5 rolls around that A) I'll have left Home Depot's sanitorium for a career as an AD or camera ops, B) that T5 will be up and running and will have the original GDW styled license for people wanting to write addons, and that C) this will foster a healthy rejuvination of a venerable game that deserves a little better than what she's got now.

Like I've said in many exchanges, I really don't want to write for games. I grew up with them so I know how to write for them, but it's not where my heart, dreams and ambitions lay. When I spoke with Hunter about writing for Traveller it was pre-Mongoose/Foreven, but, unfortunately my personal life went on a wild roller coaster ride (which ends this Oct 12th). That was back in 2005, and I had some concept that I thought would be fun for fans, but I also wanted to make a tiny bit of money on them ($50? $100?...is that asking too much?). But, what I had talked about with Hunter and a few others seems like it has to wait for T5 to get out the door.

Many apologies to Wayne and other folks who helped me with my own little venture. Foreven sounds interesting, but it's just not the flavor I want. I'm more into this for sharing my imagination, not so much to get my name out there as a "game author", because otherwise I would take up the banner and cause of Foreven and just start writing like crazy.

Thanks for the replies. T5 awaits.

Thanks again.

 

[GypsyComet]

Putting it another way, GDW had multiple reserves while Mongoose has a single ghetto.

The Foreven Reserve was started by GDW late in the MegaTraveller period.

The Mongoose Foreven arrangement offers no exclusivity whatsoever. I know of one project that seems to be assuming it will set the standard, but it has also been incredibly slow moving, has suffered from Drama, and is likely doomed. As said, outfits with the resources are heading into ATU space.

 

[Blue Ghost]

The Foreven Reserve was started by GDW late in the MegaTraveller period.

The Mongoose Foreven arrangement offers no exclusivity whatsoever. I know of one project that seems to be assuming it will set the standard, but it has also been incredibly slow moving, has suffered from Drama, and is likely doomed. As said, outfits with the resources are heading into ATU space.

I vaguely recall a Foreven proposal way back when, but then again my memory is probably clouded by your suggestion here. I can't remember too well, if at all, anything regarding addons for MT.

What I do recall is that there used to be all kinds of addons of varying quality for CT, and that that business model seemed to be thriving in 2005 and 2006. My personal issues REALLY got in the way of me concentrating to write up an adventure, and crank out something I believed in and would have liked to have shared with fellow Traveller hobbyists. So it was that all kinds of legal and interpersonal wrangles kept me from completing my projects.

And now, when I do manage to complete a couple of them there's this Foreven thing. Well, okay, let's see what it's all about. And there I have my head scratching moment.

It strikes me as odd that the vastness of the map that is "known Traveller space" was never utilized to its fullest by anyone. From the far lower left corner of Aslan space, to the upper right north of K'Kree and east of Vargr territotires, there's a whole "untouched Imperium" of space that was mined maybe a half dozen times by GDW. Heck, Earth itself got one write up in a single JTAS.

As a young man who should have been studying his physics and biology more, and watching less TV, I often wondered why there were no more adventures being published for CT. Okay, the books weren't flying off the shelves, but the system was strong, and had a strong following, so much that if you were a gamer and into science fiction, you probably had some Traveller stuff in your closet.

I remember TSR and classic D&D (CD&D?), and how not one of those high production adventure packets, none of which had anything to do with the other, never were pigeon hold into a "Foreven Kingdom". True, the difference is that the 3I and her neighbors are a contiguous setup meant to be mined for a certain setting, regardless (irregardless?) of the fact that CT itself was meant to be a generic construct where you established your own setting.

I guess I'm just baffled why there isn't something more open for people who would have otherwise written for the system. The truth is, as I stated in my previous post, I'm just burnt out on trying to get projects done when I should be sorting out my own paper work at home. It would have been nice to have just written some non-canonical "it takes place in Hiver space, or over here" kind of thing without the Foreven thing.

My hunch, and it's only a hunch, is that someone expects big things from our little niche hobby. Well, that remains to be seen, and, if my speculation is correct, then it becomes clearer why Foreven was done, but I think someone may be over estimating a quantity of success from "the franchise", so to speak. I'm not a real militant against the "Foreven concept". Heck, it's not my game, but I think I'm a good writer, and would have liked more elbow room and been able to contribute. I grew up with Traveller, and now I've got to put some small ambitions to write for it aside, or put all the work I invested in up for free.

Meh. I've got better things to do.

I may post more in my blog. In the mean time I'm done contributing to this thing.

Best of luck.

 

[Vargas]

I believe the Foreven reserve status grew out of the perception that people wanted a sector of space in the OTU that wouldn't be pulled out from under them by subsequent products. (More cynically, it might well have been a way for GDW to tell all the folks who wanted to get their sectors officially published, "Go play over there"). Looking back I think Foreven's status was an answer in search of a problem as I've seldom, if ever actually, run into anyone who was that honestly concerned with their version of the setting being overwritten.

 

[Avenger Enterprises]

The thing about the Foreven license is that folks can use OTU concepts but Mongoose does not need to pay someone to oversee canon complicity issues. I know the sort of flak they'd get if some third party 'official' products didn't match the canon in some way. In fact, that happens even when you do. Mongoose are wise to keep thier fingers out of that particular can of worms.

(I got a particularly savage attack for a writeup of Aramis in the Marches one time. Basically it was 'you're the worst writer ever, you screwed up so much, Aramis is detailed in The Traveller Adventure, don't you know anything???'

My response was: 'I knew that. And the writeup for Aramis/Aramis that I did was based on that. But there are two worlds called Aramis in the Marches, and the other one is mentioned in a Mercenary ticket, so we based the writeup on that, which is the only piece of canon extant for that world'.

Might as well not have said anything; the torrent of abuse continued. And that was for getting it RIGHT, ie both worlds called Aramis were written up based on canon sources, and both were the right way around. Canon-dude failed to realise that and attacked us out of ignorance. Enlightenment did not change his viewpoint.)

So you see, Mongoose are best not laying themselves open to that sort of thing except in official products that are overseen properly - and that costs money, ie adds to the product overhead. Justifiable on your own products, but not really on third-party stuff.

if you really want to write in the OTU, you could approach Mongoose about getting hired for an official product.

 

[robject]

if you really want to write in the OTU, you could approach Mongoose about getting hired for an official product.

I'll second that. There may be opportunities to write one-off articles, adventures, Third Imperium books, or maybe alternate settings. Send Matt an email and ask him about it.

 

[GypsyComet]

It strikes me as odd that the vastness of the map that is "known Traveller space" was never utilized to its fullest by anyone. From the far lower left corner of Aslan space, to the upper right north of K'Kree and east of Vargr territotires, there's a whole "untouched Imperium" of space that was mined maybe a half dozen times by GDW. Heck, Earth itself got one write up in a single JTAS.

It is important here to look at the total volume of material written and published by GDW for the setting versus setting material written by third parties and accepted as Canon. While quite evocative, the amount of setting material (as opposed to rules) in CT is really quite sparse, with the Alien Modules taking up the lion's share of the word count.

In the CT period GDW did two full sectors and less than a third composited from fragments (most of that being Gvurrdon), not counting the "map only" Atlas. By comparison, FASA managed a little over one sector worth spread over three different sectors, Paranoia Press did two full sectors, and Judges Guild did four. FASA's work is the only remaining in Canon, the other six belonging in a far Pulpier interpretation of the setting.

MegaTraveller saw a boom, relatively speaking, due to both the advent of personal computers and the ambitions of DGP. By the end of MT (including Hard Times), the official sector coverage had expanded to more than ten full sectors and roughly another sector worth of fragments, with fan efforts (HIWG members, mostly) covering quite a lot more. Of the official sectors, only two were outside the range of the Atlas (Mendan and Hinterworlds) meaning that approximately a third of the 35 sectors in the Atlas were covered in Canon and (estimate) another handful were in the hands of talented fans. More fan work was also proceeding beyond the reach of the Atlas.

TNE and T4 saw no new space covered other than a little of the Old Expanses, but were in vastly different circumstances that required revisiting "familiar" ground.

1248 mostly revisited familiar territory for the same reasons as TNE.

T20 revisited the four sectors done by Judges Guild and overwritten by the Atlas. None had otherwise been visited by Canon.

GURPS Traveller also stuck to revisiting familiar ground.

Mongoose has expanded the official coverage by three sectors (all beyond the Atlas) and revisited four others

Someone, or multiple someones, have been filling in blank spaces to a basic level as seen in the fan-maintained Traveller Wiki and the Traveller Map site. Quality of data is... uneven.

 

[robject]

While quite evocative, the amount of setting material (as opposed to rules) in CT is really quite sparse. [...]

"Organic growth" springs to mind. The rules left a lot of cracks to fill in, though the basics are fine for (very) casual gaming. I prefer the rules to be gathered together in one place, when possible and feasible. But that's a different (and long worn-down) thread with little purpose. I'll drive on.

In the CT period GDW did two full sectors and less than a third composited from fragments (most of that being Gvurrdon), not counting the "map only" Atlas. By comparison, FASA managed a little over one sector worth spread over three different sectors, Paranoia Press did two full sectors, and Judges Guild did four. FASA's work is the only remaining in Canon, the other six belonging in a far Pulpier interpretation of the setting.

I feel that the quality of the adventures and material was/is far more important than the completeness of the sectors, though. By quality, I guess I mean how fun it was to play, how engaging the story, how many plot hooks available, how it all hung together. Something like that.

It seems to me that those sectors from PP and JG are ripe for editing into canon, but if they're that pulpy, they'd need work, wouldn't they? [but see following]

T20 revisited the four sectors done by Judges Guild and overwritten by the Atlas. None had otherwise been visited by Canon.

Sounds promising. What's their status, canonically?

Mongoose has expanded the official coverage by three sectors (all beyond the Atlas) and revisited four others.

Seems to me that the Mongoose sectors are canonical. But I'm biased.

Wait wait. I see Map Packs, but I also see Sector Books. Six sectors (Marches, Reft, Trojan Reaches, Gvurrdon, Solomani Rim, Deneb). The new sectors are Reft, Trojan Reaches, Gvurrdon, and Deneb?

Plus, isn't there a Hiver sector coming out next year?

 

[Whipsnade]

The Foreven Reserve was started by GDW late in the MegaTraveller period.

Again, not quite. The reserve status was announced in the late MT fanzine Imperiallines, but aside from the Chamax DA and a passing reference in Alien Realms no official work had been done there for over a decade despite the sector being next door to the Marches. That points to a hands off policy of some sorts already in place.

However and whenever Foreven's previous status was determined, my point was that GDW had a basically open OTU with a handful of closed reserves, Mongoose has a basically closed OTU with a single open ghetto, and both situations are sound business models for the company in question.

The Mongoose Foreven arrangement offers no exclusivity whatsoever. I know of one project that seems to be assuming it will set the standard, but it has also been incredibly slow moving, has suffered from Drama, and is likely doomed.

I'm sorry to hear that. Whether MgT's Foreven policy officially allows parallelism or not, the presence of "first published" material will still have a chilling effect. If a write up of Arglebargle-IX already exists, it's rather likely that a prospective writer will choose another location. There would be exceptions of course, if the first product is horrible for example, but prospective writers will still be more likely to look for "virgin" territory.

Hence...

As said, outfits with the resources are heading into ATU space.

... MgT's policy is producing, unwittingly or not, an explosion of ATUs.

That's a GOOD thing by the way.

Mongoose's decision to close the OTU wasn't due to fears about the costs of canon compliance. As we all know, early on Mongoose didn't give a ⌧ about canon at all and any "appreciation" Mongoose may have for canon now has more to due with the collective screams from their prospective customers, the Traveller fan base, and less to due with anything else. Mongoose's decision to close the OTU was a business decision and a very good one at that.

While I can and do take exception with some of Mongoose's creative and editing decisions for MgT, I greatly admire Mongoose from a business standpoint. They are surviving and, I sincerely hope, thriving in what everywhere else is a dying industry. They're putting food on the table by publishing paper & pencil RPGs and there are fewer and fewer people managing that these days.

Sure the OSR movement has produced oodles of DIY and desktop "publishers" who manage to crank out a handful of PDF supplements for this and that. The number of actual companies producing actual books and distributing them to actual retailers can be counted on one hand however and Mongoose is one of them.

A closed OTU makes business sense, "dollars and cents" to use the old pun, and Mongoose was savvy enough to do it.

 

[aramis]

Looking at sectors written up by GDW in CT alone
Whole Sectors:
Sup 3: Spinward Marches
Adv 0: Spinward Marches (condensed)
Mod 3 Spinward Marches Campaign: Spinward Marches
Sup 10: Solomani Rim
AM3 Vargr: Gvurrdon Sector (Condensed)

Partial Subsectors:
The Traveller Book: Regina Subsector (Spinward Marches)
The Traveller Adventure: 4 subsector block CDGH of the Marches.
Adv 1 Kinunir: Regina Subsector (Spinward Marches)
Adv 2 RSG: Rhylanor Subsector (Spinward Marches)
Adv 3 TP: 1 subsector worth, comprised of portions of Rhylanor, Aramis, Regina, and Lanth
Adv 4 Leviathan: Egryn Subsector, Pax Rulin Subsector (B & C in Outrim Void Sector)
Adv 5: New Islands and Old Islands subsectors (Reft Sector).
Adv 6 EtZ: Chronor and Jewell Subsectors (A & B Spinward Marches)
Adv 8 BS: Villis Subsector (F Spinward Marches)
Adv 10 SS: District 268 (N Spinward Marches)
Adv 12 SOTA: Regina (C Spinward Marches)
Adv 13 SGK: 1 subsector worth, portions of Dinair, Sol, Arcturus, Kukulkan, and Gemini subsectors (J,K,L,O & P Solomani Rim)
Mod 1 Tarsus: District 268 (N Spinward Marches)
Mod 4 Alien Realms: half of some Aslan Subsector
JTAS 12: Harlequin Subsector (Solomani Rim)

By Condensed, I mean UWP listings and maps, but not subsector paragraphs.

So we get three full subsectors, and 2 subsector blocks of 2 more, plus an unspecified half-subsector.

Then, in MegaTraveller, we add Diaspora (as a supplement) and Hinterworlds (as a Challenge article in condensed format), and a GDW approved condensed Deneb, Outrim Void, Reft, and Marches booklet in MegaTraveller Digest (with a GDW copyright). MT more than doubled the Known OTU.

We also have a bunch of 3rd party stuff for CT labeled as approved for use with Traveller. Digest Group released several sectors in Traveller's Digest. Judges Guild gave us a contiguous 4-sector block (2x2). FASA gave us half a sector. Gamelords did part of a sector, either 1/4 or 1/2. Several fanzines did multiple subsectors.

Of the vast array of "approved for use with Traveller" subsectors and sectors, only the Judges Guild material was decanonized explicitly (in Atlas).

 

[Dragoner]

CT D07 Double 08 Memory Alpha details Corridor.

 

[GypsyComet]

... MgT's policy is producing, unwittingly or not, an explosion of ATUs.

That's a GOOD thing by the way.

Mongoose's decision to close the OTU wasn't due to fears about the costs of canon compliance. As we all know, early on Mongoose didn't give a ⌧ about canon at all and any "appreciation" Mongoose may have for canon now has more to due with the collective screams from their prospective customers, the Traveller fan base, and less to due with anything else. Mongoose's decision to close the OTU was a business decision and a very good one at that.

While I can and do take exception with some of Mongoose's creative and editing decisions for MgT, I greatly admire Mongoose from a business standpoint. They are surviving and, I sincerely hope, thriving in what everywhere else is a dying industry. They're putting food on the table by publishing paper & pencil RPGs and there are fewer and fewer people managing that these days.

The RPG industry is doing fine unless you add in the former gorilla in the room. WotC is continuing to bungle their stewardship of D&D in every possible way. Much to their annoyance, the rest of the industry is puttering along just fine. Monte Cook just pulled in a cool half mil for a new RPG on Kickstarter, Reaper pulled in *several* million the same way for converting their minis to plastic, and the (virtual) pile of PDFs on RPGNow grows daily. The paper side is fading, but RPGs are not slowing down that I can see.

Mongoose didn't "close" Traveller, Marc did. It happened as a side effect of the T4 debacle, long before Mongoose came along. The fan writing bonanza of the MT era was far more managed that it looked, for that matter. HIWG was being farmed, and we loved it.

Typos aside, the one serious fault I find with Mongoose's approach to generic vs setting material is that the generic side is filled with *stuff*, but there isn't a Canon Filter for any of it. While this does allow players to tune the game and the setting to their whim and will (and this is certainly why it was done this way) it also robs the 3I setting of some of its flavor compared to an ATU.

 

[GypsyComet]

I see Map Packs, but I also see Sector Books. Six sectors (Marches, Reft, Trojan Reaches, Gvurrdon, Solomani Rim, Deneb). The new sectors are Reft, Trojan Reaches, Gvurrdon, and Deneb?

Ah, I had forgotten that they had done Reft. That makes five revisits (all of the Domain of Deneb, and the Solomani Rim) and three outside the Atlas bounds (Gvurrdon, Ziafrplians, and the other sector in Solomani space). Of those three only Gvurrdon had been officially visited before, and that only barely.

It seems to me that those sectors from PP and JG are ripe for editing into canon, but if they're that pulpy, they'd need work, wouldn't they? [but see following]

Paranoia Press' Beyond Sector had a complete and populated ringworld (population 'J', IIRC), an empire of giant spider people, and free floating TL17 hardware. Their version of the Vanguard Reach was the *source* of the TL17 goodies, including teleporters...

I would have to go digging for the Judges Guild sectors, but I am quite familiar with other JG materials from that era, including a lot of their other Traveller material, and most of it is substandard even by the standards of when it was printed. Not Group One bad, but not good. The only JG Traveller product I recommend without (many) reservations is Starships & Spacecraft.

{T20's Gateway Domain) What's their status, canonically?

Not sure. Marc's list of "Things I consider Canon" wasn't handy the last time I went looking for it.

 

[aramis]

CT D07 Double 08 Memory Alpha details Corridor.

Not on my CT CD... How much of the sector, condensed?

 

[Dragoner]

Not on my CT CD... How much of the sector, condensed?

No, full, with PBG, stellar type and everything, the scan of the map is poor but I could cut and paste the text into travellermap.com and get a pdf with minimal effort. It said that Deneb and Vland was detailed as well but they ommited them from the pdf.