World Builder's Handbook - Some assembly required?

[jtgibson]

A short while ago, I reviewed most of the "buzz" on the interwebz and sought out which version of Traveller was best. I heard good things about GURPS Traveller, but detail and physical accuracy of my game universe was a major issue for me, so I eventually hunted down and bought some digital PDF reprints of the MegaTraveller books -- specifically, COACC, Referee's Manual, Player's Manual, Fighting Ships of the Third Imperium, Referee's Companion, and Imperial Encyclopedia.

However, if I'm correct in my awareness of the political things surrounding the MegaTraveller copyrights, there's a bit of an issue that's bothering me. I really, really, really want to get my hands on the World Builder's Handbook, but I'm not willing to buy the $80 copy that someone was offering somewhere (even if that is the book's actual "rarity" value, I don't tend to respect collectability), and since it's a Digest Group Publication whose copyright is owned wholly by a guy who seems to have disappeared from the internet for 11+ years, I'm effectively skullboned, mouthboned, and buttboned all at the same time.


So, I came up with an interesting idea: if I were to buy digital copies of Classic Traveller's Grand Census and Grand Survey, is there anyone around here who owns World Builder's Handbook that could come up with a set of "errata" and "addenda" which could be used to "upconvert" those two books to the WBH?

As far as I know, such errata and changes would themselves not be infringement of copyright, since they don't constitute a reproduction of a product nor do they infringe on the existing saleability of the World Builder's Handbook (i.e., the copyright holder is not financially affected because the WBH is not in distribution and is only being sold as a collectible). Granted, I'm not a lawyer, but I think it's a fair technicality. =)

Is there anyone around who might be willing to take on the task?

 

[aramis]

Grand Census and Grand Survey have the same owner... and the same issues...
if I understand the situation.

If either is released digitally, I'd be willing to bet it's NOT legit.

 

[deniable]

World tamers handbook

How much of World Tamers Handbook for TNE is taken from World Builders Handbook?

Not an ideal solution for MT players, but it might be a lot cheaper and give you the bits you need.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

$80? Wow, somebody got a deal! The last one I saw went for $100 on eBay. Seems there ought to be someway 'round this....

 

[Gruffty]

$80? Wow, somebody got a deal! The last one I saw went for $100 on eBay. Seems there ought to be someway 'round this....

....hehehe! Only paid £ 35/$ 70 for mine, including S&H Same with my Rats & Cats, Dogs & Cogs, SOM.

 

[Gadrin]

Would the item be part of the CD-Rom ?

 

[Qstor2]

Would the item be part of the CD-Rom ?

My guess is no, since the material isn't owned by Far Future but rather a 3rd party.

Mike

 

[aramis]

To be more specific...

World Builder's Handbook, Grand Census and Grand Survey are owned by Roger Sanger, as are all the other DGP-held copyrights. (Note that MTJ has a different copyright notice from the other DGP stuff.)

Roger is a bit odd. He's unable to use the materials at the moment, since he won't meet Marc Miller's requirements for license, and won't sell them, since he thinks them worth about 2 figures more than they are. Further, Roger is pretty much all ideas and no followthrough.

So, if he's put (or allowed to be put) up or reprinted the GS, GC, or WBH, then MWM has grounds to sue him.

As to TNE's WTH: it's essentially unrelated. It's an economic model for colonies, and rules for building and running colonies.

 

[Vargas]

I will go out on a limb here and suggest that a new version of the same concept, not Worldbuilder's with the serial numbers filed off but actually new, would make an excellent OGL product in a few months time.

 

[jtgibson]

Grand Census and Grand Survey have the same owner... and the same issues...
if I understand the situation.

If either is released digitally, I'd be willing to bet it's NOT legit.

I could've sworn I had seen digital copies, but turns out I was misled: what was available was First Survey. Well, there goes another option. Bah.

I suppose I could invent my own ruleset based on what I can glean from Heaven & Earth... =P

 

[whartung]

Now, color me ignorant (bright ignorant), but why would World Builders Handbook even be relevant?

Beyond being a "completist", what does WBH have over the TNE World Tamers Handbook (available on line), or GURPS First In, or GURPS ISW, or I think there is Yet Another GURPS that covers this topic. New GURPS Space maybe?

Anyway.

It's one thing when talking about a game mechanic -- combat system, ship design system, etc. Those tend to be rather edition specific.

But a world building system? Planets are planets, stars are stars, this is all essentially physics. And all of the rule sets have edition specific rules for handling planetary environments, regardless of how that environment was created (via LBB3 or the latest McGreatest version that requires only a little bit of calculus...).

Does it really matter how the Earth was generated? We have a yellow star, we're in the 3rd orbit, conveniently 1 AU from the star, 7 on the hydrographic scale, couple gas giants in the system, asteroid belt. All set for adventure.

Celsius is celsius, gravity is gravity.

Now maybe there are some economic models that might be sorta almost relevant, but, really, why not simply adopt a more modern (and available system) when in the end, it really doesn't matter or affect play?

 

[Whipsnade]

Now, color me ignorant (bright ignorant), but why would World Builders Handbook even be relevant?

Whartung,

While the other books you mention are superb products, along with being far better researched (in the case of GT:FI) and tackle far more detail (as in the case of TNE's WTH), WBH does have some nifty government-society-cultural 'chargens' that I've never seen anywhere else.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[GypsyComet]

I found the "work flow" of WBH superior to other edition's coverage as well, but that seems to be a hallmark of DGP products in general (with a couple of exceptions).

 

[jtgibson]

World Tamer's Handbook, based on the table of contents I reviewed in a digital preview, isn't the same as World Builder's Handbook at all. WTH is more about rules to survey unknown planets and such, and also provides some additional rules intended for when player characters crash-land on another world. WBH, on the other hand, provides world generation rules that are above and beyond the rules provided, including more advanced government detail, unique cultural traits (forbidden to wear certain colours, people must have certain hairstyles, etc.), latitudinal temperature effects due to axial tilt (appears in WTH but not First In), technological levels in a variety of industries (well beyond the detail given in First In), etc.

GURPS Traveller's First In is too digested for me. It covers a lot of ground and works well, but it doesn't go into enough detail on the specific points that I find the most interesting -- the points which make the world truly unique, as opposed to "just another large world with a standard atmosphere". Earth is incredibly more complex than "the third planet in the orbit of a G2V star with an average surface temperature of 14 deg C", and the UWP plus the rudimentary classifications from First In don't even begin to go into that amount of detail. =)

 

[Ishmael]

WBH's social stuff is good
the planetary physical stuff is okay, the climate model is weak and the rest could be made up from a science book.

but the social stuff is very good

overall, I like it better than world tamer except for the economic model which I twisted into my own thing anyways....and it still needs a computer to handle without taking forever.

if I were to recommend something for all of this, I'd say
WBH + Pocket Empires = very very good
( and yes, I'd still tweak it )

 

[Supplement Four]

...I'm effectively...buttboned...

I hate it when that happens.

 

[Whipsnade]

World Tamer's Handbook, based on the table of contents I reviewed in a digital preview, isn't the same as World Builder's Handbook at all.

JT,

Who said they were the same thing?

WTH is more about rules to survey unknown planets and such, and also provides some additional rules intended for when player characters crash-land on another world.

Huh? Nice to know you can glean all that from the table of contents. Next time try reading a book first and then comment on what's inside. WTH deals primarily with founding, controlling, and growing small colonies. As for handling crash-landings, I've no idea where that claim comes from.

... latitudinal temperature effects due to axial tilt (appears in WTH but not First In)...

Wrong again. GT:FI has latitudinal climate adjustments. I'm looking at the mapping section right now and there is an entire series of examples about how climates changes between the equator and poles, where those latitudes are in relation to hex rows, and other things. The book even discusses latitudinal deserts.

GURPS Traveller's First In is too digested for me. It covers a lot of ground and works well, but it doesn't go into enough detail on the specific points...

I like GT:FI and I like WBH too. Sure, First In doesn't have a system to create tiny social 'quirks'; i.e. 'academics eat leftovers', but it does address many other other social issues like xenophobia, pragmatism, and others. Being written later, GT:FI is also more scientifically accurate.

As for details, as a GM, details are my business to create. Using tables to roll-up silly quirks without reference to the larger society invovled is both lazy and produces implausible incongruities. YM obviously Vs.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Who said they were the same thing?

It was implied by a previous poster, Bill.

I would love to pick up the book, but can't afford eBay prices. The only real problem I'm having with the LBB6 world generation is gravity - there's no sane way to figure it out. Otherwise, it works pretty well for game purposes. (OK, there's also that TL3 societies tend to form on airless asteroids bit. But, otherwise it's not bad. )

 

[Whipsnade]

I would love to pick up the book, but can't afford eBay prices.

Fritz,

As someone who has both, I'd say you only need GT:FI. It's more scientifically accurate than LBB:6 and it covers nearly all of the same things WBH does.

If pressed, the only things WBH has 'over' First In is a slightly more detailed 'nuts & bolts' government generation system, a religion generation system, the social 'quirks' I mentioned previously, and some minor details with regards to mapping; tectonic plates, etc. Any GM worth his salt can wing most of that, especially the social 'quirks' system, and religion generation can be found in BITS 101 Religions.

To be honest, I find many of WBH's social 'quirks' too quirky. They're also generated without any reference to the society in which they take place.

Unless you're a completist, and I suffer from that affliction somewhat, you're really not missing much by not owning WBH. Like most of Sanger's DGP properties, it's been replaced by a newer, better product.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[aramis]

I'd argue the Better Part, as for me, the items not in First In are the main things I break out WBH for!

As for more accurate... that's yet to be seen. After all, many of the worlds we know about extra-system are not doable in ANY traveller edition.