World generation questions

[JAFARR]

(1) I am rolling up a sector for a campaign. I kept getting results like atmosphere 0 at TL 4 to 7. Has there ever been a minimum TL specified for vaccumn worlds? Or other atmospheric conditions under which non-protected humans can nof survive without some form of protective gear? If not, what TL would you suggest the minimum should be?

(2) If a world has a A class starport and a 0 population, is it's TL 0?

 

[aramis]

1) CT: not to my knowledge, but later, yes; see the MGT rules or SRD
2) depends upon edition; in CT, yes. In others, maybe.

 

[Blix]

(1) I am rolling up a sector for a campaign. I kept getting results like atmosphere 0 at TL 4 to 7. Has there ever been a minimum TL specified for vaccumn worlds? Or other atmospheric conditions under which non-protected humans can nof survive without some form of protective gear? If not, what TL would you suggest the minimum should be?

There were Environmental Tech Level limits in the CT Aliens books (I think in Zhodani?). They really should be part of the core world generation, in retrospect.

EDIT: Looking through my CT CD, they are first mentioned in the CT Aslan Module on page 25 under "Tech Level Tables". I am not sure if I am allowed to repost what it says there here, but if you have the book then it's in there. They are mentioned in the K'Kree one as well, and they are mentioned in the Zhodani book with the added specification that the planet is uninhabited if the tech level that is rolled is not higher than the limit shown. The Vargr, Droyne, Solomani, Hiver and Darrian books do not mention that TL limit table at all.

 

[Icosahedron]

Well, I usually change these things as they arise.
Sysgen is one pet hate I have with Traveller, and one area that, thanks to its interconnected complexity, I've never got round to houseruling. One day...

At TL7, we can keep a handful of relatively intelligent people alive in a vacuum for relatively short periods of time, in relatively modest accommodation, under conditions that are effectively martial law, but I'm not sure that even today, we could house an entire working population in idiot-proof vacuum accommodation with anything like personal freedoms for an indefinite period.

You simply can't have a Class A zero pop world, certainly not at TL-0. :nonono:
Pop-0 is under ten people. How are they going to build starships? Even the Morgan car company has more than 10 employees, and they only produce ground cars.

 

[rancke]

Well, I usually change these things as they arise.
Sysgen is one pet hate I have with Traveller, and one area that, thanks to its interconnected complexity, I've never got round to houseruling. One day...

I firmly believe that a set of unvetted UWPs is just a draft and that any company that publishes one is producing unfinished work.

My house rules:

1) Go through the UWPs. Put a check mark against any that doesn't puzzle you.

2) Go over the rest one by one. For each one, spend 10 minutes coming up with an explanation for the oddity. If you come up with something, note it down and put a check mark against it.

4) If you didn't come up with anything, give it a "saving throw against weirdness" from 1 to 5, depending on how weird you think it is. If it fails the throw, make the smallest change to the UWP that you think makes it work (Or the change that makes it most useful for RPG purposes) and put a check mark against it.

5) If it makes the saving throw, spend 10 minutes trying to come up with an explanation that isn't too implausible. Accept low-order probabilities, unlikely coincidences, and anything else that works for you. If you come up with something, note it down and put a check mark against it.

6) If you didn't come up with anything, give it a second saving throw. If it makes it, spend 10 minute coming up with an explanation involving once-in-the-lifetime-of-the-galaxy weirdness or the Ancients or really unlikely coincidences. If yuo come up with something, note it down and put a check mark against it.

7) If you still can't come up with anything that works, change the UWP already!

You simply can't have a Class A zero pop world, certainly not at TL-0.

Pop-0 is under ten people. How are they going to build starships? Even the Morgan car company has more than 10 employees, and they only produce ground cars.

The usual handwave is that the starport is run by transients. I don't like that one for a number of reasons, the two biggest ones are that a world with transients would still have the trade effect of the same number of permanents and that you need to come up with an explanation why someone is willing to pay the added expenses of building the shipyard, keeping it manned, and importing every subcomponent and every bit of other equipment needed to keep the workforce effective.

(Not to mention the political oddity of anyone accepting a small handful of people as a sovereign population).


Hans

 

[Vargr]

There is a factor that seem to have been forgotten. A planet's TL does not represent the absolute maximum level of technology that can be found there, but the maximum level of technology the world can manufacture on its own.

So yes, you can have Vacuum worlds at TL 4, it just means they have to buy their oxygen tanks and air filters from somewhere else.

This is nothing that has not been seen before. For example: my own country cannot supply its energy needs during summertime, so we buy electricity from France and Spain. That electricity comes from nuclear reactors, which we lack the manpower, know-how and resources to make for ourselves.

The same thing is true for computers and cellphones. In fact, my country has the most cellphones per capita of the whole of Europe; yet, not a single one has ever been built here.

And you can most certainly have a world with TL-0, Pop-0 and Starport A world.

For example: Some terrible event has killed everyone on the surface, or forced an exodus, etc. The Lowport and Highport are still there...with a skeleton crew to keep the bare minimum systems working.

Or maybe the only human presence in the system is an orbital, state-of-the-art, fully automated orbital station manned by TL 14 androids set up to refuel and repair ships.

Or maybe the world is an aborted colonization attemot, stalled in the early stages when only the starport was complete.


Rather than trying to fix what isn't broken, we should try to use our imaginations and come up with interesting explanations for the numbers.

 

[Space Hamster]

You should look at the weird results as an opportunity to come up with some alien possibilities. You do not want to have too many of them but some are ok.

The example of the low tech with no atmosphere could be explained as no surface atmosphere. You could have a huge cave network under the surface that supports life with breathable air. Because of the confined living environment they have been advancing slowly in technology.

The space port example could be some law or other reason that people are not allowed or do not want to go to the planet. The Space port could be a high port.

 

[rancke]

There is a factor that seem to have been forgotten. A planet's TL does not represent the absolute maximum level of technology that can be found there, but the maximum level of technology the world can manufacture on its own.

However, that definition demonstrably does not apply to a number of canonical examples. There are a number of outposts (scientific, mining, trade) that logically wouldn't produce anything at all; their TL should all be 0, but they're not. There are worlds with too small populations to maintain its tech level (you need a certain number of people to run an industrial society).

Also, the definition goes on to say "Technological level also indicates the general ability of local technology to repair or maintain items which have failed or malfunctioned."

This makes the definition messed up, because there are many examples of societies that can maintain the items they import but not manufacture them.

And you can most certainly have a world with TL-0, Pop-0 and Starport A world.

For example: Some terrible event has killed everyone on the surface, or forced an exodus, etc. The Lowport and Highport are still there...with a skeleton crew to keep the bare minimum systems working.

No, because then they wouldn't be manufacturing ships (no workers) and so the starport would be reduced to Class C.

Or maybe the only human presence in the system is an orbital, state-of-the-art, fully automated orbital station manned by TL 14 androids set up to refuel and repair ships.

So it might. Now look around on the subsector map and think of someone who'd be willing to fund an orbital, state-of-the-art, fully automated orbital station manned by TL 14 androids set up to refuel and repair ships in that system. Oh, and don't forget to add the cost of the system defense needed to keep pirates from plundering the starport of all those valuable androids.

Worlds don't exist in isolation, which is one of the major flaws in the world generation system (that it doesn't take that into account, I mean). An explanation that leads to more questions isn't an explanation until you answer them too. The most common such question is "Who is paying for it?"

Or maybe the world is an aborted colonization attempt, stalled in the early stages when only the starport was complete.

The definition of a Class A starport includes a list of services you can get there. A fully complete tip-top starport with associated shipyards without someone running it is a Class E starport.

Rather than trying to fix what isn't broken, we should try to use our imaginations and come up with interesting explanations for the numbers.

I'm all for that, as you should be able to gather from my previous post. However, the notion that all odd UWPs can be explained is, IMO, incorrect. I still haven't seen one for Pixie that works :devil:.


Hans

 

[aramis]

You simply can't have a Class A zero pop world, certainly not at TL-0. :nonono:
Pop-0 is under ten people. How are they going to build starships? Even the Morgan car company has more than 10 employees, and they only produce ground cars.

Pop is the permanent residents according to several sources; it's quite easy the staff of the yard live in an adjacent system, and all parts are imported and merely assembled locally. It's probably idiotic to do so under most circumstances, but I can see it being done that way given draconian environmental or assembly laws.

 

[rancke]

Pop is the permanent residents according to several sources;

True, but contradicted by some writeups that specifically include transients, as well as by all trade rules published so far (they all assume that trade and passenger volumes are based on the listed population, whereas they ought to be based on the total population (resident+transient)).


Hans

 

[dean]

A completely militarized starport with all personnel who are simply assigned there (kinda TDY), no dependents allowed (too supersecret) would be semi plausible. If it happened more the once in a sector it'd be iffy..

 

[Icosahedron]

I firmly believe that a set of unvetted UWPs is just a draft and that any company that publishes one is producing unfinished work.

Hear, hear.

I go directly from:

2) Go over the rest one by one. For each one, spend 10 minutes coming up with an explanation for the oddity. If you come up with something, note it down and put a check mark against it.

to

7) If you still can't come up with anything that works, change the UWP already!

I don't have patience for the stuff in between.

Yeah, sometimes you can come up with valid and interesting excuses, but one day I'll produce a system consistent enough that I don't have to.

I'd rather add in a couple of abnormalities if I want them instead of altering a quarter of the worlds I generate, one at a time.

 

[rancke]

A completely militarized starport with all personnel who are simply assigned there (kinda TDY), no dependents allowed (too supersecret) would be semi plausible.

It wouldn't be a Class A starport, though. A Class A starport classicfication means that civilians can get certain specific services there.


Hans

 

[JAFARR]

While some of the thoughts of how to use these illogical results fit in with my thought processes too, I was just checking to see if there was an actual rule I had over looked.

Also the seemingly imposable worlds are sure to add interest, too many of them create 1. too much work for me and 2. too much distraction from the main course of the campaign I am planning.

Icosahedron said

I'd rather add in a couple of abnormalities if I want them instead of altering a quarter of the worlds I generate, one at a time.

and I agree 100%.