Zooooom - A question on Grav Belts and robot lifters

[Reban]

Two quick questions:

1. On p.613 the Grav Belt is detailed but no Speed is given. It is described as being built around "a single lift module" which confuses things. If it said grav module I'd say it was Speed 5 or 50kph as per the vehicle speeds table on p.295, but as it says lift module it might be a Lifter and only Speed 3 or 20kph. Being a Lifter would also make sense as its limited to one planetary diameter altitude which agrees with the Altitude tables on p.292. Any insight please?

2. In a related question. Robots: Connectors and Undercarriages p.568 lists Mobile Lifter Baseplate and Zero-G Baseplate but doesn't make any comment on speed. Perhaps the intention is to retain the speed of the sophontform that the robot is designed on but this is not stated. Also both these units have fixed volumes. As far as I can see they are scaled to a 72 liter robot but what if you have a bigger or smaller form?

The reason I'm asking is I'm thinking about how to design some drones under 1ton volume or strangeform robots which zip around on lifters or grav modules. Ideally these would have a top speed similar to vehicles using the same tech.

 

[Original_Carl]

Hi Reban,

Here's my insight, for what it's worth.

1. I think your interpretation of the grav belt "single life module" as a lifter is correct, and I would set the speed at TL-A to 3 or 20kph. Further, I would adjust this speed up with TL increases, TL-B would be speed 4 and so on. Alternately, I could make the unit itself smaller as TL went up, dropping one size category with each TL increase while retaining speed at 3.

2. Lifter baseplate = lifter = speed 3 at Base TL of the robot you're building. Adjust robot characteristics according to TL. The zero-G plate is just a hover module, by my interpretation and doesn't provide locomotion.

I need more information to judge size limitations, if any. Do you have any page references for the 72 liter platform for a robot? Why couldn't your robot be 10 tons (or 100 or n tons)? Could you just use vehicle maker instead and equip the vehicle with a sufficient positronic brain?

 

[Reban]

Hi Carl,

Thanks for the comments.

On the Grav Belt yes i think categorizing it as a lifter works best. I hadn't thought about increasing speed as TL increases. Something about the way Speeds are set up in T5 makes me hesitate to do that. When in doubt I always have a look at the Tech Level Stage Effects table on p.500 that gives me some exact figures for how many liters it will take up at different TL's. An Ultimate or TL14 Grav belt would still be Speed 3 but with a volume of just 13 liters. Maybe add modules to increase speed?

Mobile Lifter Baseplate: Okay I agree with you on this one. So speed 3. The description says "Generates lift, motion"

Zero G Baseplate: This one is a bit more difficult. first of all its only 4 Liters compared to 30 Liters for the Mobile Lifter. Could this be errata? The description says "Generates thrust (through lifters and through pressurized gas vents)". Also the cost for this 4 liter gizmo is 30KCr compared to 20KCr for the 30 liter Mobile Lifter.

I've formed the impression that this should be a 40 Liter 30KCr thruster capable of use by robots out to the 10D limit where they'd be in zero-g. I'll pop this one in the errata thread just in case.

On the 72 Liter thing p.563 discusses Robot Size. You're right that a robot can be any size, but the robot design chapter is based on sophont forms giving the human form as a reference (average humans are 72 liters). Maybe I'm missing something but all the component volumes are fixed and I can't see any multiplier based on size.

My robots could of course be any size from 1 to 10 tons and designed as strangeform robots by putting any of the available robot brains in a VehicleMaker vehicle. The problem is I'm designing a series of squad level battlefield drones based on roughly 100 liter volume shells. VehicleMaker doesn't really do craft under 0.5tons so I'm using information like the body form profile chart p.559 to built a roughly shark shaped 100 liter body.

 

[Original_Carl]

I'll get back to you on robot size. I want to talk more about applying TL effects to the grav belt.

Based in what I'm seeing on those tables around page 500, I think maintaining volume on the belt and advancing to ultimate would produce a size 4, speed 7 grav belt. Alternately, I think I could apply stage effect to size and get an ultimate grav belt that was size T and speed 3.

I think you're on to something with the zero G baseplate. It makes sense that it would be on a robot that operates in zero G.

 

[Reban]

Lets crunch some numbers. First of all lets take the standard belt as the one listed in the ThingMaker catalog and write it below:

Standard Grav Belt
Std Grav Belt, TLA, Size 4, 25Kg, Cr100,000, 25 Liters QREBS=50000

I'm going to apply the stage effects from the table on p.500 because its an easy reference and the errata uses it as the main reference for stage effects.

I'm going to work through the ascending tech levels first and I'm going to apply the volume modifications from the ThingMaker column.

Improved Grav Belt
Imp Grav Belt, TLB, Size *, 38Kg, Cr100,000, 38 Liters, QREBS=5,+1,+1,-1,+1

Modified Grav Belt
Mod Grav Belt, TLC, Size *, 23Kg, Cr50,000, 23 Liters, QREBS=5, +2, +2, -2, +2

Advanced Grav Belt
Adv Grav Belt, TLD, Size *, 20Kg, Cr200,000, 20 Liters, QREBS=5, +3, +3, -3, +3

Ultimate Grav Belt
Ult Grav Belt, TLE, Size *, 13Kg, Cr300,000, 13 Liters, QREBS=5, +4, +4, -4, +4


Notes: I've left Q=5 although it should/could be randomized as 2D-2.

* I'm running into a problem with the calculation of Size. The listed volume of 25 Liters should give a Size of 3 not 4.

25 Liters = 0.025m3

cube root of 0.025m3 = 0.29m

29cm = Size 3

Also Density must be Standard and Construction must be Solid if 25 Liters masses 25Kg.

Mental block at this point

 

[Original_Carl]

Rather than apply the stage effect to actual volume, why not apply it to size, per page 603?

For example, that size 4, 30kph grav belt could be a size T, 30kph grav...staple? Breath mint? Tiny collar button, maybe?

How are you converting mass to size? I'm not finding a table showing Kgs to size.

 

[Reban]

I'm looking at p.603 but I can't see anything about stage affects applying to the size. I can see the Size table which shows the longest dimension for a given Size and shows how to apply flux or use decimal Sizes.

Going up and down a Size category is a big jump. I can see what you're saying, but the idea that by going up one or more tech levels a 25 liter backpack for flying to the edge of the atmosphere shrinks to something 2mm long (size T). Thats very small. Thats sneeze and you've lost it small. For me shrinking something that much with stage effects tends too far towards space opera and away from kind of Traveller I play. Also on p.500 we're given the factors to multiply volume in ThingMaker for various stage effects.


Okay on to the mass to size question. What I'm actually doing is comparing mass to volume. In the description we are given both. The grav belt is 25kg and 25liters. On p.604 you find all the information necessary for working out volume and mass including the equation M=V*D*C

We know M=25Kg and V=25Liters so:

25kg=25L*D*C

25/25=D*C

1=D*C

So if you look back to the top of p.604 you find figures for both D and C. Looking at the easiest way to make D*C=1 we can speculate that D=Standard=1 times C=Solid=1 results in 1*1=1.

Now it could be denser with a more flimsy construction but I've just gone for the easiest fit to the tables.

 

[Reban]

Of course I'm making a mistake in my concept of what that 25 Liters is. It is NOT one solid block representing the lift module. It includes the volume inside the straps i.e. 25 liters takes account of the torso of the wearer.

What does that mean? Well construction is probably closer to "Hollow".

And this also makes sense of why its pegged as Size 4.

Size 4 is something large enough for a human to wear. For example Coats are Size 5 covering most of the body and and air tanks are Size 4 bing strapped to the back, and likewise a backpack is Size 4.

 

[Original_Carl]

I've now skimmed ThingMaker, and I'm seeing where you're applying stage effect to Volume as per Page 500. Are there any tables showing TL Stage Effects to device performance?

Also, ThingMaker seems to be more a guided form of Handwavium than a detailed device building system, like ShipMaker or GunMaker. And that's fine, but I get the impression that if I really wanted to make a Pez candy-sized device that allowed me to fly around at 20mph at TL-E, that it would be up to me the Referee and ThingMaker will have no issue with it.

For me shrinking something that much with stage effects tends too far towards space opera and away from kind of Traveller I play.

A few years ago, I would have agreed with you on this and thought that such a suggestion (a tiny device that allowed you to fly at 30kph -- or really any of these more amazing technological gadgets) would be unrealistic and too fantastical for Traveller except at the highest TLs. However, I attended a lecture on applying Moore's Law to devices last year and my viewpoint on what's realistic and what isn't has changed considerably. We're on the verge now, in this world, of our tools turning into super powers. In 7 years, you're going to see some amazing stuff. 7 years after that, you're going to sound like your grandma does now when she sits down to work the computer-machine for the Facebooking.

Keep in mind that four tech levels is a substantial difference. We're at TL8-ish now. TL 4 was pre-automobile (ca 1900) and long-distance communication was limited to telegraph. Here in 2014, I have a gadget the size of a candy bar that I carry around and it allows me to communicate with nearly anyone on the planet while simultaneously accessing the sum total of all human knowledge and the battery is good for a couple of days -- in another few years my device will be half it's current size and the battery last a couple of weeks, or at least be an "instant charge" battery. And that won't even be a whole TL increase. We'll be at something like TL-8.3.

This is the magnitude of difference (telegraph to smart phone) I'm talking about between the backpack that allows you to fly around at 30kph at TL-A and the breath mint sized thing that allows you to do the same thing at TL-E.

That said, your game is your own, and the only influence I would hope to have on it is to make it more enjoyable for you.

In my own games, I use a lot of Handwavium when it comes to every day gadgets. Big stuff, like starships and flyers, I'll stat out, but I'm a firm believer in the M(ake)OARN principle.

What intrigued me in this discussion, Reban, was your reference to 1-ton (or thereabouts) drones that zip around on lifters. I need to stat out a few different drones for my game and your page references to how you're doing it has been very helpful to me. I need to build a couple variations of drone attack craft (escort, torpedo boat, and maybe a bomber) and I feel much more prepared to do that now. Thanks, Reban!

 

[Reban]

Glad to be of help.

I totally get what you're saying about Moore Law (although I'm not sure it can be applied to everything) and moving towards singularity. As Arthur C. Clarke said "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".

However...there's a practicality behind my personal rejection of the mint sized grav belt. If you make it that small I see no reason to make it a separate "thing". If you make it so small it ceases to be a piece of equipment and becomes an ability. One of the things I like about Traveller is the Ships Locker and the lists of equipment that PCs can assemble their personal toolkit from.

Having said that in my games I borrow a lot from games like Eclipse Phase and GURPS Transhuman Space for information, data and communications in a future setting. Information becomes completely malleable but if you want to break and enter, a crowbar is still a hefty piece of metal because the Law of the Lever still applies.

You're right about Thingmaker being guided handwavium.


Device performance.

The main performance modification is to Range Effects at the bottom of p.600 but I think you're asking more about speed which is handled in VehicleMaker. In other cases I suggest your first step is to define what T5 refers to as the Baseline Device. This sets the "standard" performance for a device. A baseline device is usually four TLs after the initial introduction and has stage effects applied to it.

Good luck with the drone designs. I'm trying to build drones around 100Liters for integration at squad level in military units, the kind that carry support weapons, scout ahead and carry equipment.

You probably want to take a look at the chapter on brains and part of the Robot and VehicleMaker chapters.