Carrying Non-Starships through Jump

[BRover]

Initial Disclaimer: I cut my teeth on CT-77 to -80 (until a few years back, I was not even aware of CT 2nd ed), and have a (very) few other scattered sources. I have done some work with the Traveller wiki, but my overall understanding is likely pretty spotty.

My question is about the Lanthanum Grid in starship hulls. Needed for jump, of course. But: do carried ships, especially those carried outside the hull (like the Type R's lifeboat/gig) also need a grid, one tied into the main hull's jump grid?

If so, would all non-starships have this grid, or does it create a two-tier non-starship status, those able to be carried through jump vs. those that can only be carried within the starship hull, presumably under grid-equipped bay doors?

If not, is the main starship jump grid able to project far enough to carry the smaller craft? How big can the ratio be--and is it linear or by volume, or some other measure?

Or was this question simply never noticed? (My suspicion is that this is the case . . .)

 

[mike wightman]

The lanthanum hull grid is a DGP MegaTravellerism.

There is no lanthanum hull grid mentioned in CT or MWM's Jumpspace article in JTAS 24.

Lanthanum is used in the jump coils, there is a hull grid cable network mentioned but what the cables are made from is not detailed.

Non starship hulls are cheaper because they lack the jump cable network.

I always assumed that carried smallcraft or even SDBs moved by the jump shuttle lack the grid network but the jump ship can extend its jump field to encompass the carried craft.

 

[Condottiere]

There's always the jump net.

 

[Proneutron]

Or was this question simply never noticed? (My suspicion is that this is the case . . .)

If I remember right, under later Trav version design rules this would be an illegal design because of over hull tonnage for J drive operation.

 

[BRover]

If I remember right, under later Trav version design rules this would be an illegal design because of over hull tonnage for J drive operation.

Unless the base (starship) type R hull is 380 dT and the launch is 20 dT.

 

[Proneutron]

Unless the base (starship) type R hull is 380 dT and the launch is 20 dT.

Of course. But in the design it is listed as a 400 dt hull without the launch

 

[BRover]

Of course. But in the design it is listed as a 400 dt hull without the launch

"Using the type 400 hull, the type R subsidized merchant is equipped with 13 staterooms (five for the crew: pilot, navigator, medic, steward and engineer; eight for the high or middle passengers) and nine low pas-sage berths. The ship is equipped with jump drive-C, maneuver drive-C and power plant-C, allowing 1 G acceleration and jump-1 interstellar flight. Cargo capacity is set at 200 tons, while fuel tankage will contain 50 tons. The hull is produced with two hardpoints, and is streamlined. A life boat is included as a ship’s vehicle. Computer Model/1 is installed adjacent to the bridge. Base price for the type R is CR 100,035,000." B02-'77

So the lifeboat is included in the plans somehow. And S07 has it docked externally, perched above the main hull at the rear. Hence 380 t main hull + 20 t life boat = 400 t.

 

[Grav_Moped]

"Using the type 400 hull, the type R subsidized merchant is equipped with 13 staterooms (five for the crew: pilot, navigator, medic, steward and engineer; eight for the high or middle passengers) and nine low pas-sage berths. The ship is equipped with jump drive-C, maneuver drive-C and power plant-C, allowing 1 G acceleration and jump-1 interstellar flight. Cargo capacity is set at 200 tons, while fuel tankage will contain 50 tons. The hull is produced with two hardpoints, and is streamlined. A life boat is included as a ship’s vehicle. Computer Model/1 is installed adjacent to the bridge. Base price for the type R is CR 100,035,000." B02-'77

So the lifeboat is included in the plans somehow. And S07 has it docked externally, perched above the main hull at the rear. Hence 380 t main hull + 20 t life boat = 400 t.

Here's the fun part: The Type R uses a standard hull. This means every ship with a standard hull is shaped just like a Type R. This includes the 20Td notch taken out for the Type R's lifeboat.

 

[Vile]

Here's the fun part: The Type R uses a standard hull. This means every ship with a standard hull is shaped just like a Type R. This includes the 20Td notch taken out for the Type R's lifeboat.

That's assuming there is only one standard 400-ton hull (I tend to allow several depending on popularity, especially in the 200- and 400-ton ranges), but it's an interesting point. Rather like the standard hulls provided by Niven's Puppeteers, where users just have to make the best of what configurations are available. It becomes an interior design exercise to minimise wasted space.

So naval architects have the same introduction to their job as regular architects today - a couple of years shuffling toilet layouts around before the seniors let you actually draw something ... :rofl:

 

[Grav_Moped]

That's assuming there is only one standard 400-ton hull (I tend to allow several depending on popularity, especially in the 200- and 400-ton ranges), but it's an interesting point. Rather like the standard hulls provided by Niven's Puppeteers, where users just have to make the best of what configurations are available. It becomes an interior design exercise to minimise wasted space.

So naval architects have the same introduction to their job as regular architects today - a couple of years shuffling toilet layouts around before the seniors let you actually draw something ... :rofl:

LOL
I see it as trying to be General Products hulls without actually being them.

In practice, since you can add streamlining there must be at least two types of standard hulls per tonnage -- one streamlined, one not.

On the other hand, one of the things that has to be set at construction time is the number of hardpoints, and those are not specified in the standard hull scheme.

But it really does seem to me that these are each supposed to be the hull for some specific ship design, and if you want exactly the same drives as that specific design had, the drives ought to fit the drive bay exactly. Now that I figured out that I was mistaken about the 600Td hull (tweaked between editions to fit the Subsidized Liner), this makes a lot more sense. Doesn't explain the 400, 800, and 1000 ton standard hulls not matching anything though.

And again, it feels like the intent is to encourage players to buy lower-performance ships.

 

[Proneutron]

"Using the type 400 hull, the type R subsidized merchant i

Then it would be a 380 hull with external 20 ton of boat.

 

[BRover]

Here's the fun part: The Type R uses a standard hull. This means every ship with a standard hull is shaped just like a Type R. This includes the 20Td notch taken out for the Type R's lifeboat.

I thought about this--but we already have at least two standard hulls in each size class: streamlined vs. unstreamlined. True, as far as I recall, the standard ships given, apart from possibly Type S vs. X-boat, use only one or the other--and is the 1000 ton used at all? (X-tender?)--but the possibility is there. So, it seems likely that various shaped standard hulls are possible, and even "tweaked" hulls for carried ship boats. (Which, BTW, makes the whole question of why the standard hull main vs. engineering sections exceedingly strange, but there it is.)

 

[mike wightman]

I think the standard hull is more do do with the main compartment vs drive compartment split rather than actual hull form. After all streamlining the hull is an option...

 

[boomslang]

Then it would be a 380 hull with external 20 ton of boat.

I figure the fact that since it is bought and engineered as a "400-ton hull" it subsumes the integral 20-ton berth for the Launch within the overall displacement, and therefore the Launch, when stowed in its dedicated "bay", is encompassed the Jump field as formed by the Lanthanum coils.

Tuning the J-field to encompass the actual hull silhouette of any given starship (in the case of added external loads like Drop Tanks, Cargo Pods, and whatnot) and recalibrating the drives to their new (presumably lower) performance should be a Routine job for the Engineer. Ditto for the M-drive field.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Non starship hulls are cheaper because they lack the jump cable network.

Only in LBB2'77, and not just the hull, the entire ship costs half the normal amount.

In LBB2'81 and LBB5 non-starship hulls cost the same as starship hulls.

I always assumed that carried smallcraft or even SDBs moved by the jump shuttle lack the grid network but the jump ship can extend its jump field to encompass the carried craft.

Agreed.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Here's the fun part: The Type R uses a standard hull. This means every ship with a standard hull is shaped just like a Type R. This includes the 20Td notch taken out for the Type R's lifeboat.

Not necessarily, the standard hull is just a standard size, not shape.

A standard hull can still be streamlined or not.

The Type-S Scout and the Serpent-class Scout both use a standard 100 Dt hull, but have different shapes.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I figure the fact that since it is bought and engineered as a "400-ton hull" it subsumes the integral 20-ton berth for the Launch within the overall displacement, ...

Yes, I agree.

LBB2 is far to [o]streamlined[/o] simplified to have systems for internally vs. externally carried subcraft. Such petty details were sorted out when you draw deck plans.

 

[McPerth]

The lanthanum hull grid is a DGP MegaTravellerism.

There is no lanthanum hull grid mentioned in CT or MWM's Jumpspace article in JTAS 24.

Lanthanum is used in the jump coils, there is a hull grid cable network mentioned but what the cables are made from is not detailed.

Non starship hulls are cheaper because they lack the jump cable network.

I always assumed that carried smallcraft or even SDBs moved by the jump shuttle lack the grid network but the jump ship can extend its jump field to encompass the carried craft.

If so, why does the jumps ship shown in S9 (page 22) need the "Special cables attached to the rear of the ship (to) extend the jump to include additional cargo"?

I guess this clearly hints that the field only envelopes what is really inside the jump producing "hull" (as it may include those cables), be it a lantanum gird or whatever (thouhg I will refer to them as lantanum gird for easinens of writting), it must envolve the whole jumping mass...

This, of course, would need those ítems (be them boats, cargo pods or fuel tanks) carried externally to either have their own lantanum gird (though not operative without the jump drive other components) or to be somehow enclosed by cables, nets or whatever having it...

 

[Grav_Moped]

Not necessarily, the standard hull is just a standard size, not shape.

A standard hull can still be streamlined or not.

The Type-S Scout and the Serpent-class Scout both use a standard 100 Dt hull, but have different shapes.

RAW says it's a size and drive bay allocation, not a shape. Based on the description, they ought to have the same shape as well, as they are a standard. (They really ought to have a set number of hardpoints too -- doesn't mean you have to use them...)

There can be multiple "standard" hulls for each size (and streamlined/not), but these would probably be regional variations, with each region settling on a standard for each size and streamlining option.

So there'd be a standard 100Td streamlined hull in the Imperial Core, a different one in the Spinward Marches, another for the Solmani, maybe one for the Sword Worlds. Each would still have a 15Td drive bay.

And I still think they each need to fit a highly useful (and thus mass-produced) ship for each tonnage, with no waste space in the drive bay. (They often don't, but the 100 and 200Td ones do, and the 600Td one is close.)

On the other hand, the wasted space might have been left in to hide that the design rules were railroading players into lower-performing ships.