T5 Only: CT Ships are Luxurious

[robject]

CT ships can of course be used as-is in T5 games. Usually a ship is a box that carries players and stuff around.

When a CT ship intersects T5 rules, you have to make decisions. One reaction is to port the design. In my mind, though, CT ships are close enough to T5 ships that you don't necessarily have to do that. I think you can make some safe assumptions about the operational bits that CT designs lack.

I've been porting CT designs to T5 for ten years now. Ten. Years. And I'm happy to say that I'm making fewer errors than before, thanks to rules revisions and people like AnotherDilbert and Craig Glesner -- both of whom are ACS Geeks, but also annoying when they challenge and correct my faulty view of shipbuilding rules. Yes you guys can be obnoxious -- you know that, don't you? Nevertheless, you're helpful, so thank you.

As I go along, I make assumptions about ships designed using CT. T5 has about the level of detail as MegaTraveller (that was the intent). This means CT ships imply equipment that is spelled out in T5 ships. So here are my rules of thumb.

Basic Principle: Well and Expensively Designed

The basic principle in using or porting CT ships with T5 is that these ships are well designed. When there's an option, take the expensive, quality one.


A. Spacious Bridges

Unless otherwise obvious, CT ships have spacious bridges. In T5 this confers an operational bonus.

B. Landing Equipment

I figure the landing equipment depends on the hull type. If it looks like an airplane, it has wheels and needs a landing strip. Else, if it can still land, it has landing legs -- and yes, this would cost money and volume in a T5 design, but CT ships are Well and Expensively Designed.

C. Armor = TL

For commercial ships only, it's safe to assume there's no extra armor. Therefore, the AV of these ships is equal to their TL.

Military ships are trickier, especially on CT Book 2 designs, where "armor" is the ability of drives to withstand damage. In that case, maybe it's best to use CT damage rules.

D. Plenty of Long-Ranged Sensors

Unless I'm mistaken, this is kind-of implied (e.g. Mayday). Sensors in CT seem to be able to track multiple light-seconds away. In the interest of being generous, and in the interest of "why does this CT ship cost so much compared to a T5 ship", I tend to install a long-ranged surface-mount Communicator, Radar/EMS, Scope/Visor, and Neutron Detector on all commercial ships.

E. Luxury Passenger Staterooms

T5 has multiple options for increasingly cramped quarters. This is fine for crew. For passengers, however, CT invariably chooses the Luxury stateroom option. Here's the dead giveaway: passenger staterooms all accept high passengers. In T5, there's only one stateroom that does that: the Luxury Stateroom.

Using Luxury staterooms when porting CT designs to T5 has the added benefit of "fewer moving parts" -- a luxury stateroom and luxury life support. With standard staterooms, you've got the stateroom, the common space, the fresher, and the life support to think about.

F. Advanced Drives?

I won't always specify non-standard drives. But I will if I need to.

 

[kilemall]

They don’t build em like they used to.

 

[Grav_Moped]

They don’t build em like they used to.

True of canon deck plans, too.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I've been porting CT designs to T5 for ten years now. Ten. Years. And I'm happy to say that I'm making fewer errors than before, thanks to rules revisions and people like AnotherDilbert and Craig Glesner -- both of whom are ACS Geeks, but also annoying when they challenge and correct my faulty view of shipbuilding rules. Yes you guys can be obnoxious -- you know that, don't you?

Sadly, I do...

Nevertheless, you're helpful, so thank you.

Despite the obnoxiousness, I try to be...

As I go along, I make assumptions about ships designed using CT. T5 has about the level of detail as MegaTraveller (that was the intent).

He, I disagree, T5 is more complicated. MT has an overwhelming amount of options, but they are mostly irrelevant options, or mechanical computations a computer can handle for you. Once you weed out those, MT is fairly straight forward.

T5 is more complicated because the stage system, the fixed hull and drives, and the multistage accommodation system. The accommodation system can be more or less automated, but requires computer support to remember all the details. The fixed hull and drive systems leads to questions such as the "Overtonnage and undertonnage" thread. Drive performance, i.e. needed drive, and fuel consumption varies by stage and pod load, again necessitating computer support.

This means CT ships imply equipment that is spelled out in T5 ships. So here are my rules of thumb.

Basic Principle: Well and Expensively Designed

The basic principle in using or porting CT ships with T5 is that these ships are well designed. When there's an option, take the expensive, quality one.

Agreed, standard designs can be assumed to be reasonable. Non-standard wacky designs need not be all that good... Not sure I agree with expensive though; ships are designed for a purpose and commercial ships should be profitable, i.e. relatively cheap to operate.

I simply aim for getting in the same ball-park as the original, but not too out of line with native designs. Often that means wasting some space to get close to an old inefficient design with huge bridges and fuel requirements from LBB2.

A. Spacious Bridges

Unless otherwise obvious, CT ships have spacious bridges. In T5 this confers an operational bonus.

Agreed, Ergo 2 is needed, more starts to get too expensive quickly. Large ships with small bridges should perhaps look into even more spacious controls.

B. Landing Equipment

I figure the landing equipment depends on the hull type. If it looks like an airplane, it has wheels and needs a landing strip. Else, if it can still land, it has landing legs -- and yes, this would cost money and volume in a T5 design, but CT ships are Well and Expensively Designed.

T5 caters to this: Just go for Airframe and you get what you need by default. The real choice is Floatation capability assumed by CT.

C. Armor = TL

For commercial ships only, it's safe to assume there's no extra armor. Therefore, the AV of these ships is equal to their TL.

Military ships are trickier, especially on CT Book 2 designs, where "armor" is the ability of drives to withstand damage. In that case, maybe it's best to use CT damage rules.

Be flexible? The Type T does not have any armour, presumably because that was not an option in LBB2.

If it's a commercial ship extra armour can be ignored, but say a Type T should have some, as the Daring-class illustrates?

D. Plenty of Long-Ranged Sensors

Unless I'm mistaken, this is kind-of implied (e.g. Mayday). Sensors in CT seem to be able to track multiple light-seconds away. In the interest of being generous, and in the interest of "why does this CT ship cost so much compared to a T5 ship", I tend to install a long-ranged surface-mount Communicator, Radar/EMS, Scope/Visor, and Neutron Detector on all commercial ships.

I would be a bit more circumspect. Naval and Scout designs should have better sensors, commercials cheaper standard sensors.

More sensors means more Panels, which needs more Consoles, which needs more Crew... Don't cripple e.g. a Free Trader with too expensive equipment that they don't need to turn a profit.

E. Luxury Passenger Staterooms

T5 has multiple options for increasingly cramped quarters. This is fine for crew. For passengers, however, CT invariably chooses the Luxury stateroom option. Here's the dead giveaway: passenger staterooms all accept high passengers. In T5, there's only one stateroom that does that: the Luxury Stateroom.

Using Luxury staterooms when porting CT designs to T5 has the added benefit of "fewer moving parts" -- a luxury stateroom and luxury life support. With standard staterooms, you've got the stateroom, the common space, the fresher, and the life support to think about.

Lux accommodations are slightly simpler, but also much larger and more expensive than CT standard. Use with caution...

At least you get a Demand boost from the extra space.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Let's do a ship, to see where we end up...

Subsidized Merchant (type R): Using a 400-ton hull, the subsidized merchant (nicknamed fat trader) i s a trading vessel intended to meet the commercial needs of clusters of worlds. It has jump drive-C, maneuver drive-C, and power plant-C, giving performance of jump-1 and 1-G acceleration. There is fuel tankage of 50 tons, supporting the power plant and allowing one jump-1. Adjacent to the bridge is a computer Model/1. There are thirteen staterooms and nine low berths. No turrets or weaponry are installed, but there are two hardpoints and two tons are set aside for fire control. The ship has one 20-ton launch. Cargo capacity is 200 tons. The ship is streamlined.
The fat trader requires a crew of five: pilot, navigator, engineer, medic, and steward. The pilot also operates the launch; gunners may be added to the crew list as required. The ship costs MCr101.03 and takes 14 months to build.

Looking at the illustrations, I see a winged ship with an external launch. OK, that is manageable, say Airframe configuration and an external craft in grapples. It will be a little bigger (400 Dt + craft) than the original (400 Dt including craft), something we might have to do something about later...

So we select a 400 Dt hull with config Airframe, giving us landing wheels, wings, and fins for free.
Leave the armour at a default single layer of Plate with an Anti-Rad anti-layer to protect against the weather.

Then install a Launch in a Grapple, as this will affect the drive selection, as it is an external pod. The total ship is now 420 Dt with a 400 Dt main hull.

Let's select drives: We can either use boosted B drives, or plain C drives to get the desired performance.
If I peek ahead a bit, I see that I'm under-budget so far (I'm using a spreadsheet that has already defaulted the rest of the ship, so I can see where I'm going).
So, I'll go with C drives, matching the LBB2 original. Stage "Mod" B drives would have the required performance, and be cheaper, but we are aiming for the original, right? This allows the ship to be TL-9 for the jump drive, again matching the original.

Give it fuel for a 420 Dt ship, i.e. 42 Dt + 4.2 Dt. With no stages for the drives this is simple.
Add Scoops and a Purifier; here I select stage "Generic" for the well-defined quality (QREBS) and low price. The Purifier is more than the original has, but has to be considered standard in T5.
We might add probably more useful Water Intakes, but that would require Floatation to be really useful? Let's reserve judgement on that until we see where we end up, shall we? (With the expensive C drives we are pushing the budget a bit.)

For sensor I'm again choosing cheap and dependable "Generic" items, which at TL-9 are:
Gen AR Comm-9, Gen SR Radar-9, Gen SR Scope-9, and Gen SR NeutD-9.
As the Neutrino detector has shorter range than the Radar, let's skip it, saving a Panel, etc.
We'll only see other ships at S=5 (50 000 km), but it's a small cheap merchantman, after all.


Controls:
With an additional Panel for Life Support we are up to 12 Panels, requiring 7 Consoles for Ergo 2 ("Spacious bridge"). I'll add an additional 2 Consoles to cover future armaments or other extra equipment, for a total of 9 Consoles. With a Control Console for the Pilot, spare for the Co-pilot, and two for the potential Gunners, we need 4 Control Consoles, and the rest are 5 Operating Consoles. Add a very basic Brain to each console, to let them handle simple situations without the crew. This makes the controls almost as big as the CT bridge...
Add a computer m/1, for good measure.


Let's look at accommodations:
With Minimal watches the ship requires a crew of three: Pilot, Navigator(/SensOp), and an Engineer.
The passengers require an additional Steward and Medic, at least by CT standards, T5 doesn't force anything. So, a crew of five.
Peeking ahead a bit, I can see that we have plenty of space, but not quite enough for Lux staterooms for all passengers.
Reserving space for 200 Dt cargo, a Dt ship's locker, and a Dt Vault, and 2 Dt for potential turrets, I get just enough space for Crew Comfort 4 (4 Dt per person), and Passenger Demand +2 (7 Dt per person), or perhaps a more CT-like egalitarian Crew Comfort 5 and Passenger Demand +1 (it's not a luxury liner after all)? Still quite palatial by CT standards...
Make sure to build in some overcapacity, to make double occupancy possible.
I get:
Crew: 5 staterooms, 2 Freshers, 14 Dt commons.
Passengers: 4 Lux staterooms, 4 staterooms, 2 Freshers, 15 Dt commons.
Low: 9 Berths.
Toss in a mandatory Med Console, an Auto-counsellor booth, and a Med Bay (Clinic) for the Medic to do his job.
Finally life support: 4 Lux staterooms, needs 4 Dt Lux support, and the other 9 staterooms needs ~2 Dt support for potential dual occupancy (cheap enough to overspecify...)

Basically done...

We ended up with 206 Dt for the cargo hold. If we want to match the original exactly we can waste some extra space, or make the ship slightly undertonnage with a benefit to aerodynamical performance. It's a commercial design, so wasting a just 6 Dt to get a benefit feels a bit too much like cheating... I'll just leave it empty for upgrades?

Oh, Floatation: We have the space, and it would only put us slightly over budget, but It's not something I associate with the Subbie, and I can't be bothered, so leave it out?

Done!


We ended up with:

Using a 400 Dton streamlined hull, it has a J Drive C, a M Drive C, and a P Plant C giving performance of jump-1 and 1 g acceleration. There is fuel tankage of 46,2 Dton, enough for 4 weeks and 1 jump-1.
Controls consists of four control consoles, five operating consoles, and a m/1 computer with Ergonomics 2.
There are three sensors: a communicator, a radar, and a scope.
Crew accomodations consists of five staterooms with a Comfort of 5. For passengers there are four luxury staterooms for high passengers, four staterooms for mid passengers, and nine low berths for low passengers with a Demand of 1.
There is a carried craft: a Launch in a grapple.
Cargo capacity is 200 Dton. The ship requires a crew of five: a pilot, an astrogator, an engineer, a medic, and a steward. The ship costs MCr 98,95.

Close enough?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

And all the gory details:

Spoiler: Spreadsheet

TL-9   F-DA11                        Ergo 2   Comfort 5    Demand 1        Agility 1
       Freighter                     Total:         0          99,0        Stability 2
SYSTEM                                    #       DTON         COST   
                                                                      
Hull                                              400                 
Config: Airframe                                               28     
Structure: Plate Plate         AV=9 ( 90 vs Blast, 1800 vs Heat/Beam, 90 vs Pres, 900 vs Rad, 0 vs EMP )   
Coating: Reflec                AV= 0 ( 900 vs Heat/Beam  )   
Armour Std Anti-Rad                       1                          AV=9 ( 90 vs Blast, 900 vs H/B, 900 vs Rad, 0 vs EMP )   
Landing Wheels Wilderness                                             
Wings Incr Perform                                                     
Fins Incr Agility                                                     
Lifters Installed                                               2     
                                                                      
External Craft                           20                                  0  External Craft
Total Drive Capacity                    420                                  0  Over/undertonnage: Agility ±0
                                                                      
Jump Field: Jump Bubble                                                    D=351 m, Flash 7
J Drive C      J-1, 300 EP                1        20          20     
M Drive C      1 G, 300 EP                1         5          10     
P Plant C      P 1, 300 EP                1        10          10     
                                                                      
Fuel, Jump   J-1                                   42                 
Fuel, Power  4 weeks                                4,2               
Purifier                                  1         1           0,5   
Scoops                                    1         1           0,1   
                                                                      
Console, Control C+S=9                    4         8           1          Brain: INT=4, EDU=2
Console, Operati Gen C+S=8                5        10           0,5        Brain: INT=4, EDU=2
Computer m/1                              1         1           1,5   
                                                                      
Sensors                                                               
Gen AR Surf Commu-9 +9A+7 PA(El           1                     1,5     
Gen SR Surf Radar-9 +9A+5 PA(El           1                     1          ACS S=5
Gen SR Surf Scope-9 +9A-- P(Pho           1                     1          ACS S=4
                                                                      
Crew:                                     5                           
Stateroom for 1                           5        10           0,5   
Freshers Shared                           2         1           1     
Common Areas                             14        14                 
Passengers:                               1                           
High:Luxury Stateroom (1) for 1           4        24           1,6   
Mid :Stateroom (1) for 1                  4         8           0,4   
Freshers Shared                           2         1           1     
Common Areas                             15        15                 
Low Berth Low Passengers                  9         4,5         0,9   
Life Support:                                                         
Med Console                               1         0,5         0,5   
Auto-counsellor                           1         1           0,2   
Clinic                                    1         2           1     
Life Support, Luxury 100%                 4         4           4          120 person-days
Life Support, Standard 200%               2         1,8         1,8        540 person-days
                                                                      
Payload, General                                    1                 
Payload, Sophisticated                              1           1     
                                                                      
Standard Air Lock                         4                           
                                                                      
Cargo                                             200                 
Spare Space                                         8                 
                                                                      
Carried Craft                                                         
Grapple Launch 20 Dt                      1         1           8     
                                                                      
                                                                      
                                       Crew    Consoles      Panels   
Crew                                 5                9          12   
Bridge Crew                          2    0                           
    Pilot                                 1           1           2   
    Astrogator                            1           1           0   
    Sensor Ops                            0           1           3   
Engineer                             1    0                           
    Engineer                              1           3           5   
Service Crew                         2    0                           
    Operations                            0           0           1   
    Medic                                 1           0           0   
    Steward                               1           0           0   
Gunner                               0    0                           
    Gunner                                0           2           0   
Flight Crew                          0                1           1

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I could of course give every passenger a Lux stateroom (and Lux life support), but it would leave a bit cramped commons?

Using a 400 Dton streamlined hull, it has a J Drive C, a M Drive C, and a P Plant C giving performance of jump-1 and 1 g acceleration. There is fuel tankage of 45,99 Dton, enough for 3,8 weeks and 1 jump-1.
Controls consists of four control consoles, five operating consoles, and a m/1 computer with Ergonomics 2.
There are three sensors: a communicator, a radar, and a scope.
Crew accomodations consists of five staterooms with a Comfort of 4. For passengers there are eight luxury staterooms for high passengers and nine low berths for low passengers with a Demand of 2.
There is a carried craft: a Launch in a grapple.
Cargo capacity is 200 Dton. The ship requires a crew of five: a pilot, an astrogator, an engineer, a medic, and a steward. The ship costs MCr 102,35.

Reduced Crew Comfort, increased Passenger Demand.
Slightly reduced fuel load and slightly over budget.

Spoiler: Spreadsheet

TL-9   F-DA11                        Ergo 2   Comfort 4    Demand 2        Agility 1
       Freighter                     Total:         0         102,4        Stability 2
SYSTEM                                    #       DTON         COST    
                                                                       
Hull                                              400                  
Config: Airframe                                               28      
Structure: Plate Plate         AV=9 ( 90 vs Blast, 1800 vs Heat/Beam, 90 vs Pres, 900 vs Rad, 0 vs EMP )    
Coating: Reflec                AV= 0 ( 900 vs Heat/Beam  )    
Armour Std Anti-Rad                       1                          AV=9 ( 90 vs Blast, 900 vs H/B, 900 vs Rad, 0 vs EMP )    
Landing Wheels Wilderness                                              
Wings Incr Perform                                                      
Fins Incr Agility                                                      
Lifters Installed                                               2      
                                                                       
External Craft                           20                                  0  External Craft
Total Drive Capacity                    420                                  0  Over/undertonnage: Agility ±0
                                                                       
Jump Field: Jump Bubble                                                    D=351 m, Flash 7
J Drive C      J-1, 300 EP                1        20          20      
M Drive C      1 G, 300 EP                1         5          10      
P Plant C      P 1, 300 EP                1        10          10      
                                                                       
Fuel, Jump   J-1                                   42                  
Fuel, Power  3,8 weeks                              4,0                
Purifier                                  1         1           0,5    
Scoops                                    1         1           0,1    
                                                                       
Console, Control C+S=9                    4         8           1          Brain: INT=4, EDU=2
Console, Operati Gen C+S=8                5        10           0,5        Brain: INT=4, EDU=2
Computer m/1                              1         1           1,5    
                                                                       
Sensors                                                                
Gen AR Surf Commu-9 +9A+7 PA(El           1                     1,5      
Gen SR Surf Radar-9 +9A+5 PA(El           1                     1          ACS S=5
Gen SR Surf Scope-9 +9A-- P(Pho           1                     1          ACS S=4
                                                                       
Crew:                                     4                            
Stateroom for 1                           5        10           0,5    
Freshers Shared                           2         1           1      
Common Areas                              9         9                  
Passengers:                               2                            
High:Luxury Stateroom (1) for 1           8        48           3,2    
Common Areas                              8         8                  
Low Berth Low Passengers                  9         4,5         0,9    
Life Support:                                                          
Med Console                               1         0,5         0,5    
Auto-counsellor                           1         1           0,2    
Clinic                                    1         2           1      
Life Support, Luxury 100%                 8         8           8          240 person-days
Life Support, Standard 200%               1         1           1          300 person-days
                                                                       
Payload, General                                    1                  
Payload, Sophisticated                              1           1      
                                                                       
Standard Air Lock                         4                            
                                                                       
Cargo                                             200,0                
Spare Space                                         2                  
                                                                       
Carried Craft                                                          
Grapple Launch 20 Dt                      1         1           8      
                                                                       
                                                                       
                                       Crew    Consoles      Panels    
Crew                                 5                9          12    
Bridge Crew                          2    0                            
    Pilot                                 1           1           2    
    Astrogator                            1           1           0    
    Sensor Ops                            0           1           3    
Engineer                             1    0                            
    Engineer                              1           3           5    
Service Crew                         2    0                            
    Operations                            0           0           1    
    Medic                                 1           0           0    
    Steward                               1           0           0    
Gunner                               0    0                            
    Gunner                                0           2           0    
Flight Crew                          0                1           1

 

[robject]

This is a good T5 design. Thank you!

You're right to attach the launch via grapples. Traders & Gunboats p21, "Launch mounts on dorsal surface of merchant..."

I think the classic Traveller design must use C drives as "armor".

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I think the classic Traveller design must use C drives as "armor".

It was necessary in LBB2'77. They just left it unchanged in LBB2'81, despite not being necessary anymore.

LBB2'77, p10:

 

[robject]

WOW. Of course.