Deep Site Meson Guns in Invasion:Earth
- Thread starter pzmcgwire
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AnotherDilbert
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They can detect massive objects like stars and perhaps even planets at a few parsec, but you need to be closer to detect caverns or internal structure. E.g. in T5 they are a world range sensor in space combat.
Do you have a canon mention of densitrometers being used to detect deep mesons, or are you just trying to be rude?
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
We don't have detailed rules for a lot of things in Traveller. We have no detailed rules for how the Rule of Man fell apart, but fall apart it did.
We have no detailed rules for how to siege a system, yet it can apparently happen.
How do role-playing games work? We make s-t up.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
I think it's in the Referee's Companion. See e.g. p24: You can scan a hex you are jumping to for any stars and even gas giants, and you can scan the system you are in for any planets.
That is just how deep into an object you can see, not how far you can see.
You can easily detect a world at 50 000 km, and still see just 1 km into the surface.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
If I had to speculate, at seven light years it might be more of a case of identifying a massive mass compared against the surrounding vacuum.
Going by the Core Rules, medium range gets a minimal signature return, short a limited one; you have to get to close range for the full spectral one.
Going by the Core Rules, medium range gets a minimal signature return, short a limited one; you have to get to close range for the full spectral one.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
The sensor task has range as a negative modifier, so effective range is a few "hexes" of 25 000 km, so about 100 000 km or so.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
My understanding is that they don't really work that way. I mean, perhaps in can happen, but I don't feel there's a lot of force involved in a meson blast, ala a nuclear detonation.
Rather it more trillions of subatomic collisions as the meson particles suddenly "appear" within everything else.
So, if you hit a pile of sand with a meson blast, maybe you'll get finer sand, but not necessarily an instant large crater. If you hit a block of granite, you'll end up with block of decomposed granite. If you hit a human, you get a blobby mess with shattered bones. If you hit steel, it may or may not come apart, but it's very badly compromised.
That's my 21st century Pooh brain layman understanding of a fantastical futuristic weapon.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
I would assume you'd have the effect of teleporting all those mesons within a solid sphere, and causing a simultaneous explosion, disrupting most if not all molecular bonds.
A series of bay sized meson guns could create a tunnel to it, and you'd vacuum out the debris.
A series of bay sized meson guns could create a tunnel to it, and you'd vacuum out the debris.
<Shrug> the Striker described effect is pretty clear on the everything destroyed within X radius of burst point, I'm good with a fizzly teleporting nuke.
If you go by the EP rating for black globe absorption, they are in the same power range as nuclear missiles, but of course the spinals get all those extra hits, so probably more like a stream of meson flak detonations.
Tunnel engineering meson demolitions may follow a more precise employment.
BRJN
SOC-12
The one thing I remember from playing Invasion:Earth more than 30 years ago is, the Terran defender has to put a PDF in Hawaii or have a defense gap in the Pacific Ocean.
Of course the Imperial player can figure this out too and send "tourists" with "cameras" to "watch Kileaua erupt" and "see the Pearl Harbor museum" long before the Rim War front gets anywhere near Sol Subsector.
Of course the Imperial player can figure this out too and send "tourists" with "cameras" to "watch Kileaua erupt" and "see the Pearl Harbor museum" long before the Rim War front gets anywhere near Sol Subsector.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Deep Underground Meson Base
Straybow
SOC-14 1K
Doesn't matter. Meson guns don't work, anyway. Meson decay isn't a stopwatch, it's a half-life measurement. That means the mesons are continually decaying and destroying whatever they're passing through. A "deep meson" would be blasting holes through the planet to reach targets.
Any "meson gun" would be doing more damage at the weapon site than at the target, which is some number of half-lives distant and therefore some number of halvings of potential damage. Since they're accelerated to near-c, if the beam actually hit a ship it would only do a tiny amount of damage, since only tiny fraction of a second of beam transects the ship.
But suppose, for the sake of argument, that a meson gun could work the way it is depicted in Traveller. The longest half-life is 5 e-8 seconds, so you'd have to accelerate the particles to roughly γ = 5 e8.
γ = 1/√(1-ß²)
√(1-ß²) = 1/(5 e8)
(1-ß²) = 1/(5 e8)²
ß² = 1-1/(5 e8)²
ß = √(1-1/(5 e8)²) = 0.999999999999999998
I wonder how much energy it takes to accelerate a mass of mesons large enough to be a weapon to that speed? Probably exajoules in to get gigajoules out. I can't imagine that it would be an efficient use of putting energy into a target.
Also, don't forget that when producing neutral Kaons, only roughly half have the "long" half-life. So roughly half of all that energy goes into short Kaons with 9 e-11 seconds half-life. So your beam is going to expend half its energy at some chosen target point, and another half of its energy at a point 1000 times closer than the designated target, which is probably uncomfortably close to the what the gun is intended to protect.
Alternatively, you could put a million times more energy in to focus the "short" Kaons on target and let the "long" Kaons trigger 1000 times farther away.
The more you look at it, the more unworkable meson guns become.
Any "meson gun" would be doing more damage at the weapon site than at the target, which is some number of half-lives distant and therefore some number of halvings of potential damage. Since they're accelerated to near-c, if the beam actually hit a ship it would only do a tiny amount of damage, since only tiny fraction of a second of beam transects the ship.
But suppose, for the sake of argument, that a meson gun could work the way it is depicted in Traveller. The longest half-life is 5 e-8 seconds, so you'd have to accelerate the particles to roughly γ = 5 e8.
γ = 1/√(1-ß²)
√(1-ß²) = 1/(5 e8)
(1-ß²) = 1/(5 e8)²
ß² = 1-1/(5 e8)²
ß = √(1-1/(5 e8)²) = 0.999999999999999998
I wonder how much energy it takes to accelerate a mass of mesons large enough to be a weapon to that speed? Probably exajoules in to get gigajoules out. I can't imagine that it would be an efficient use of putting energy into a target.
Also, don't forget that when producing neutral Kaons, only roughly half have the "long" half-life. So roughly half of all that energy goes into short Kaons with 9 e-11 seconds half-life. So your beam is going to expend half its energy at some chosen target point, and another half of its energy at a point 1000 times closer than the designated target, which is probably uncomfortably close to the what the gun is intended to protect.
Alternatively, you could put a million times more energy in to focus the "short" Kaons on target and let the "long" Kaons trigger 1000 times farther away.
The more you look at it, the more unworkable meson guns become.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
In Traveller we are supposed to be able to control rate of decay with Nuclear Dampers. Presumably we can prevent the pions from decaying until they are well clear of the gun.
Does it matter? All the lovely energy spent accelerating the pion will be present in the decay product particles, and delivered to the target, if the pion decays before or inside the target.
I'm not saying meson guns are obvious or likely, but compared to Nuclear Dampers, Jump drives, or Artificial Gravity it is a rather pedestrian technology.
Making it all the more remarkable that they managed to figure it out anyway!
Technology is AMAZING!
:rofl:
(and hey, in 5000 years who knows what will happen. 5000 years ago from now any of the things we take for granted would be considered magic; queue Authur Clarke: “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”)
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Probably find a couple of more particles you can speculate about.
