Lord Blaine
SOC-7
Are there any flags, emblems or other symbols associated with different nations and races in the OTU?
National Symbolism in the OTU
- Thread starter Lord Blaine
- Start date
Quite a few, actually...
The double circle of the Vilani...
The wreathed Terra logos of the Solomani
The Imperial Starburst
The flaming eye of the Vilani pirates.
The vargr skull of the Vargr corsairs
The human skull and crossbones of solomani pirates.
The Zhodani trefoil
The sword worlds crossed swords.
The Aslan Ihaiti fleet have a star cluster
Lord Blaine
SOC-7
Ooh, neat. Are these in any way obscure, or am I just some kind of dunce for not finding out about them sooner?
Although the Imperial, Vilani pirate and Solomani pirate symbols aren't loading, for whatever reason.
Although the Imperial, Vilani pirate and Solomani pirate symbols aren't loading, for whatever reason.
None are particularly obscure. Half of them are explicit in the MegaTraveller Rebellion Sourcebook. The rest go back to CT alien modules and to related games.
Lord Blaine
SOC-7
So you're saying they are obscure. The most recent source you mentioned was a book published in 1988 for an edition that has not been supported with official releases for decades - I hate to say it, but that's obscure.
Most of them have been reused in later materials. T20, for example. And they're all in the avatars selection for the BBS.
even my Alaskan 8-ball is a variation on the Vilani symbol...
I always cite OLDEST sources as a matter of habit (and professional training).
Lord Blaine
SOC-7
What profession prefers the oldest available source? Even historians tend to use the newest edition of any given book, all other things being equal.
Also, when you're trying to say something isn't obscure, you really want to go for newer sources rather than ones from back when the USSR still existed.
Also, when you're trying to say something isn't obscure, you really want to go for newer sources rather than ones from back when the USSR still existed.
Traveller canon discussions often start with the oldest publications as sources. Perhaps it would be best if I used this moment to repost this...
Don's 'What is Traveller Canon' Hermeneutic
I'm not speaking for Marc here; I'm drawing from personal experience and observation to infer basic facts to assist. If I do speak for Marc online, I'll preface the post with "Marc is asking..." or "Marc wants...", or something similar. Rob Eaglestone also does this. That doesn't mean Rob or I have any special status. If I was writing material for the Spinward Marches, I'd probably have Rob, Hans Rancke, Jim Kundert, and Andrea Vallance review it before giving it to Marc for review, because I trust their knowledge of things I've forgotten. And all of us will often post items here on CotI because there are a bunch of great folks here to catch items.
So, bearing all of that in mind, here's some simple facts about Traveller canon:
1. It is, at any given moment, what Marc decides.
2. Marc reserves the right to change his mind.
3. The GURPS Traveller universe (aka the Lorenverse) and the Official Traveller Universe overlap; exactly where they overlap is questionable, depending on who's asking the questions.
4. The precedent of "mostly recently published source" applies, unless that newer source is wrong about something; it happens.
5. Never, ever assume that current licensees are not canon; rather, current licensees are always canon, unless they print something wrong.
6. Marc decides who is wrong.
7. There's no order to the six rules above.
That's pretty much it. On an average day of research for Marc, I'll start with the Galaxiad notes (if applicable), Mongoose books, (if possible), then GURPS Traveller (including IW), then TNE (because I have to, not because I want to), then Mega, then Classic materials. Within those materials, the primary publisher is the first source, but any licensee could be a secondary source. There are probably *golden* sources, but nothing is perfect. Oh, and yes, 1248 goes in there somewhere. I wouldn't consider it a primary source, but definitely a secondary source. Heck, there's even a couple of Judges Guild items Marc mentions from time to time. Admittedly, I haven't dug much out of the JG materials for Marc, but I've got them to refer to. And even HIWG docs and fanzines COULD be a source if it's an idea that Marc likes. For example, I pay very close attention to HIWG docs written by Clay Bush on subjects. And I've got the TML and Xboat archives setup as searchable because they have clues to things I don't remember.
I cannot think of a single source that would be outright rejected with no consideration at all. My own timeline isn't a source; it's a list of sources.
So, the moral is, don't throw rocks at other Traveller settings. We're all in the same tent, even if we imagine we're not.
Some things Marc has repeatedly said are NOT canon:
1. Anything under 100 tons jumping. 101-ton jump ships work, but 99-ton jump anythings simply never work.
2. Almost all Aslan art has the hands and paws wrong. I've repeatedly had this explained to me, but I still don't picture it properly.
3. There are only six major races, and they are all identified. Don't add another one.
4. DGP's pre-Ancient Primordials/Sparklers. Come on, Joe Fugate only briefly mentioned them in his goodbye. The Kebkh are in the OTU.
5. Light sabers, ala Star Wars. This might be proof that Traveller and Star Wars have different physics foundations. And if you want them in your OTU, Marc will NOT send the Canon Police to visit you.
6. Simultaneous FTL communication is never possible. No combination of psionics, science or magic can produce this in the OTU.
And the final, absolute rule: Canon is for authors. Referees and players are creating their own games, so they can do as they will, including violating any and all of the six items above.
Marc Miller's reviewed this several times and actually did approve it. This probably opens more questions than it answers. A discussion last year brought a few additions to the NOT CANON list. Careful readers will note slight changes since the last time I posted this...
Don's 'What is Traveller Canon' Hermeneutic
I'm not speaking for Marc here; I'm drawing from personal experience and observation to infer basic facts to assist. If I do speak for Marc online, I'll preface the post with "Marc is asking..." or "Marc wants...", or something similar. Rob Eaglestone also does this. That doesn't mean Rob or I have any special status. If I was writing material for the Spinward Marches, I'd probably have Rob, Hans Rancke, Jim Kundert, and Andrea Vallance review it before giving it to Marc for review, because I trust their knowledge of things I've forgotten. And all of us will often post items here on CotI because there are a bunch of great folks here to catch items.
So, bearing all of that in mind, here's some simple facts about Traveller canon:
1. It is, at any given moment, what Marc decides.
2. Marc reserves the right to change his mind.
3. The GURPS Traveller universe (aka the Lorenverse) and the Official Traveller Universe overlap; exactly where they overlap is questionable, depending on who's asking the questions.
4. The precedent of "mostly recently published source" applies, unless that newer source is wrong about something; it happens.
5. Never, ever assume that current licensees are not canon; rather, current licensees are always canon, unless they print something wrong.
6. Marc decides who is wrong.
7. There's no order to the six rules above.
That's pretty much it. On an average day of research for Marc, I'll start with the Galaxiad notes (if applicable), Mongoose books, (if possible), then GURPS Traveller (including IW), then TNE (because I have to, not because I want to), then Mega, then Classic materials. Within those materials, the primary publisher is the first source, but any licensee could be a secondary source. There are probably *golden* sources, but nothing is perfect. Oh, and yes, 1248 goes in there somewhere. I wouldn't consider it a primary source, but definitely a secondary source. Heck, there's even a couple of Judges Guild items Marc mentions from time to time. Admittedly, I haven't dug much out of the JG materials for Marc, but I've got them to refer to. And even HIWG docs and fanzines COULD be a source if it's an idea that Marc likes. For example, I pay very close attention to HIWG docs written by Clay Bush on subjects. And I've got the TML and Xboat archives setup as searchable because they have clues to things I don't remember.
I cannot think of a single source that would be outright rejected with no consideration at all. My own timeline isn't a source; it's a list of sources.
So, the moral is, don't throw rocks at other Traveller settings. We're all in the same tent, even if we imagine we're not.
Some things Marc has repeatedly said are NOT canon:
1. Anything under 100 tons jumping. 101-ton jump ships work, but 99-ton jump anythings simply never work.
2. Almost all Aslan art has the hands and paws wrong. I've repeatedly had this explained to me, but I still don't picture it properly.
3. There are only six major races, and they are all identified. Don't add another one.
4. DGP's pre-Ancient Primordials/Sparklers. Come on, Joe Fugate only briefly mentioned them in his goodbye. The Kebkh are in the OTU.
5. Light sabers, ala Star Wars. This might be proof that Traveller and Star Wars have different physics foundations. And if you want them in your OTU, Marc will NOT send the Canon Police to visit you.
6. Simultaneous FTL communication is never possible. No combination of psionics, science or magic can produce this in the OTU.
And the final, absolute rule: Canon is for authors. Referees and players are creating their own games, so they can do as they will, including violating any and all of the six items above.
Marc Miller's reviewed this several times and actually did approve it. This probably opens more questions than it answers. A discussion last year brought a few additions to the NOT CANON list. Careful readers will note slight changes since the last time I posted this...
I've been collecting some and here's an example:
Third Imperium: Symbols:
- The Capital of the Third Imperium is at Capital/Core (Core 2118), formerly known as Sylea, and is the location of all of the most important symbols of the Third Imperium:
## Consortium Trinary
## Imperial Palace
## Imperial Sunburst
## Iridium Throne
## Moot Spire
I have some for the other major aces as well.
Hope that helps...
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
Third Imperium: Symbols:
- The Capital of the Third Imperium is at Capital/Core (Core 2118), formerly known as Sylea, and is the location of all of the most important symbols of the Third Imperium:
## Consortium Trinary
## Imperial Palace
## Imperial Sunburst
## Iridium Throne
## Moot Spire
I have some for the other major aces as well.
Hope that helps...
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
Archivists and Historians - you ALWAYS cite the oldest primary sources after the event as being closest to the events, and thus least subject to the errors of recall. You cite newer ones only if arguing the older ones are flawed of if the older sources don't cover the needed topic. Or so all my professors of history, and the archivists I worked with, have stated repeatedly.
Secondary sources you go, per my professors, with the one with the best primary sources cited, preferably those closest to the event itself. (Some of which are particularly interesting - for example, Avrich notes that US intelligence estimates of 1940 Soviet Strength were based upon German staff estimates thereof. Which were themselves off. When he looked at the actual Russian Archives, he found that the records indicate the US estimates were about the number of properly equipped Russian soldiers in WWII... but that the actual troops in uniform was nearly 8x the US estimates. I can confirm that US estimates of the time as circulated to the Alaskan Command match what Avrich stated, because I was able to examine the records of the US Army when I worked at the Alaska Region office of the US National Archives.)
Tertiary sources you NEVER cite. NOT EVER. They are invalid as sources. Use of a tertiary source was an automatic failure in all of my upper division coursework. (And my graduate coursework, as well... but that's Ed. In Ed, yes, the newest source is the favored one.)
Example: Early 20th C Interwar organization of a military unit...
Given a choice between a 1940 TO&E and a 1960's report of 1940's TO&E and a 1960s interview about TO&E's, you go with the 1940 document for what was the official. You can make the argument that the TO&E was not adhered to, but the 1940 document is the oldest primary source for interwar of the two primaries. The 1960 interview is probably about as accurate as to what was actually done, but it's not a reliable source due to the time away from it. And the 1960 report is probably not going to square with the listed TO&E's in 1940 - because it's a secondary source, and has an inherent agenda. (In this case, such a report was done in about 1962, IIRC, looking at the organization of the US army before, during, and after WW II, and during the Korean Conflict, and looking at the changes needed for the changing battlefield. But it was flawed from the get go by the initial reasoning - an end to the Regimental approach to staffing military units was a desired outcome going in, and so it has a huge confirmation bias.)
They're also in the MT reprints.
The things that are missing are (a) any symbols of individual planets and/or (b) noble crests that may substitute for the same (representing baronies, counties, and so on).
This may be an indication of an attempt to homogenise the Imperium (no divided loyalties, etc.), or just that the designers had other fish to fry - so you're free to invent your own! ;-)
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