New Twilight 2013- a review in progress.

[Border Reiver]

I got my pdf of 2013 yesterday and to be honest I wasn't sure about ordering. I'll start with some of my reservations since by mentioning these I can say how pleasantly surprised I've been overall.

Firstly I thought that 2013 was too close a year for a setting (and I still believe this but it hasn't caused me any issues). I was also worried by hints from the forum about the background. There was a lot of demonising going on, from Muslims to the French and although the French ARE the bad guys that start throwing nukes around and Islamic countries and terrorists are responsible for a lot of the badness it isn't portrayed in a way that might cause offence, in fact it is very well portrayed.

I'll not give away too much about the background but here is a precis of the hotspots.

Europe: Russia has nuked France into extinction and invaded Western Europe. The was is at stalemate, Germany, Austria and Italy have borne the brunt. A hint to designers, despite some nicely accurate stuff about the duke of Glouceter's son, talking about Elder, Middle and Younger Princes of Wales is really innacurate and grates. There is one Prince of Wales. (picky, picky )

Middle East: The Great Muslim War. Saud versus Iran versus Kurdistan versus Afghan versus Syrian etc. etc. Israel is gone. An exodus to Egypt to save them against aggression/invasion by an Islamic Confederation after their use of nuclear weapons saves the people of Israel. They now assist Egypt in resisting Islamic aggression.

Africa: The Forgotten War. Egypt and Libya have unified and with Israeli assistance have formed a formidable power block. Algeria is now home to millions of displaced French. Sub-saharan Africa is utter chaos, tribal conflicts rage across the interior with the coasts being somewhat more peaceful. South Africa is relatively unscathed and flourishing supplying arms to the world's conflicts.

North America. USA invades Mexico. Canada invades USA. China nukes USA and takes parts of Western seaboard.

Asia: War of Chinese Aggression. Speaks for itself. Much of SE Asia occupied.

So far, so good. No more or less unlikely than previous versions.

 

[Starviking]

"Canada invades USA"?

Is the turning point in this history far in our own past?

 

[Border Reiver]

Not so much a formal invasion as a flood of refugees who then arm against US aggression and atrocities.

It isn't bad speculation, certainly no worse than anything by Clancy or Coyle.

 

[Rhialto the Marvelous]

Based on the blurb, a friend of mine, who usually has good instincts, suggested this may turn out to be Twilight 2000: The Emo Version. In other words, Mad Max plus drama.

Is there any indication of that?

 

[Border Reiver]

Not yet anyway. Still working my way through the "Reflex System" and the background seems straight forward enough.

I suppose the cantonments and company towns in the background combined with a few other points could be construed as Mad Max in nature but you play it how you want. I just want to get into the meat of the system.

 

[Higgipedia]

There are several points in the GM's Toolkit where they remind you it's not Mad Max.

The best part about the setting is that they set up a perfect storm of bad which caused a catastrophic global breakdown. No single nation will be quick to lead the world out of this. 90% of the population died, mostly through starvation, exposure, or disease as the world's infrastructure crumbled around them. There are wars everywhere, involving citizens and soldiers from everywhere. You could have an US-centric campaign in Asia, Europe, South America, and North America.

It's pretty cool. I like what I see so far. Won't have a chance to play for a few weeks, but it looks like it runs smooth.

 

[savage]

Invasions?

US invasions 5 years from now by allies.. plausible? I don't think the described scenario works or keeps in-line with the original game.

Anyhow, we'd nuke them flat and they'd know it. Exchanges in nuclear weapons on a tactical scale was the original direction. It's still plausible if terrorists and rogue countries are the driving force.

 

[kafka47]

Darn from the description...I was hoping for a sort of cross between Utopia and Dystopia. Funny that they have Canada invading the USA...that was part of the basis of my first Traveller Universe...making the Empire an offshoot of the colonization of the Canadian West...MoJ were akin to Mounties.

 

[Jamus]

North America. USA invades Mexico. Canada invades USA.

So a nation with a total population of ~33,212,696 (July 2008 est.) invades a nation with a population of 301,139,947 (July 2007 est.)?? seems far fetched dont you think? I mean the population of Michigan is ~9,938,444 and has the Michigan Army National Guard at 8,910 as opposed to Canada's 60,000 regular troops and 20,000 reserves. This does not factor in the fact that Canada uses crappy gear compared to that used by US forces.

The point being that Canada would have a hard time invading Michigan and would probably be held or driven back before the US mobilized its Army having a strength of ~512,400. That is not counting all US forces BTW. Even with the current US deployments over seas canada would be substantially out numbered and out gunned in any engagement with US forces and that is before we factor in every hill billy in Michigan Ohio and Kentucky that owns a rifle and feels that sniping Canadian troops would be a good idea.

China nukes USA and takes parts of Western seaboard

How? US pacfleet sleeping? We don't manage to unleash hell on china with our ICBMs and boomers? Chinese soldiers use wire-fu to jump the pacific and avoid the US fleets and aircraft that would be defending the western seaboard? Do the designers really believe that China will out pace the US in military tech by such a huge amount in the next 6-7 years that they will be able to ship enough troops across the oceans to invade the US mainland? I understand that they are trying to make an interesting game but this is not even plausible. China tries to invade through Alaska... Dont see that working out to well either since the logistics required for such an invasion are beyond the means of China to support especially while trying to invade the rest of Asia and especially without the benifit of the US buying Chinese exports.

The fight in Mexico at least would be interesting since Mexico has the population and army size (Population: 108,700,891) Mexico's armed forces number some 620,400, including the reserves with a standing force of 181,356 active duty soldiers. despite the larger army and population does Mexico possess the technology to withstand a full on invasion by the US? I dont think so but that begs the question.. why would the US invade Mexico?

 

[smokewolf]

I'll be a stinker here...

but neither Canada nor China "invade" the US

 

[smokewolf]

Canadian citizens fleeing horrible winter conditions where EMPs (over mainland USA) have left them without power in their southern cities. With no power, and little other heating options, Canadians migrate south to warmer climates. As they cross the border with the US, they are first met with open arms, but as resources begin to get thin on the US side, the begin to be seen as illegal aliens stealing from the mouths of Americans.

Eventually confrontations begin (very much like the Minutemen along the southern border) and soon these turn violent. As news of these violent confrontations with Americans spread, Canadians begin to arm themselves as they cross the border.

Does our military have problems in dealing with this, yes. For a large part, being able to tell who is Canadian and who isn't becomes almost impossible. In the beginning the military must err on the side of caution and so long as people weren't actively engaged in combat, there was little they could do except try to keep the peace. By 2013, the military has to focus its attention on more urgent matters, Chinese infiltrators, Russians in Alaska, Mexico, etc and leave the matter to the local National Guards to deal with.

They haven't defeated the US or anything, but its more like they've managed to blend in very well especially in the larger pockets of populations (cities with still over 10,000 people). We end up with armed Canadians citizens roaming the countryside, not the Canadian military.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

China has aspirations of expansion in the Pacific Rim. Knowing that if they launched any attack they'd draw the wrath of western armies, they preemptively send in small teams of crack special operations persons into the US. These teams eventually form light battalions who split into platoon sized elements.

After the Chinese nuke the US, these teams then roam the western states attacking soft targets, disrupting communication, intercepting supplies, etc. Doing whatever they can to delay and/or disrupt any American response to the Chinese invasions now taking place in Taiwan, Japan, Korea and the Philippines.

Their tactics involve hit and run style attacks against lightly defended targets. Every now and then they capture people and either ransom them back or use them as slaves. I do envision seeing them actually giving training and support to other factions within the US, such as Mexican resistance fighters, criminal gangs, etc.

However, by 2013 these units are still functioning and occasionally raiding small towns and such. They end up not being a huge threat (as the Chinese had hoped for), they end up more like a annoyance than anything else.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

After a series of further food and toy recalls from Chinese products, the US and most of Europe imposes a strict ban on all Chinese products. This forces many countries to seek cheap labor markets elsewhere. One of the more popular choices was Mexico.

After the EMPs hit the US and ceases a lot of the manufacturing that is left in the states, the US immediately turns to the manufacturing plants in Mexico to refit for the war effort. Tensions with the Mexican government however complicate this.

To ensure a steady supply of beans, bullets and bandages, the US sends in the Army to secure the plants (and other US interested) against Mexican interference. During this incursion the US does end up confronting the Mexican Army but easily defeats it. However, taking a page from Iraq and Afghanistan the remnants of the Mexican army take up an insurgency against the US.

By 2013, things are dicey in the Mexico as the insurgent attacks are taking their tool on the US forces. Additional complications arise from the Civgov/Milgov and CSA split in the US. Command and control weakens and in some areas troops will largely be left to their own devices with the only order to hold what they have and hope for reinforcements.

 

[savage]

4 years and counting

Canadian citizens fleeing horrible winter conditions where EMPs (over mainland USA) have left them without power in their southern cities. With no power, and little other heating options, Canadians migrate south to warmer climates. As they cross the border with the US, they are first met with open arms, but as resources begin to get thin on the US side, the begin to be seen as illegal aliens stealing from the mouths of Americans.

Eventually confrontations begin (very much like the Minutemen along the southern border) and soon these turn violent. As news of these violent confrontations with Americans spread, Canadians begin to arm themselves as they cross the border.

Does our military have problems in dealing with this, yes. For a large part, being able to tell who is Canadian and who isn't becomes almost impossible. In the beginning the military must err on the side of caution and so long as people weren't actively engaged in combat, there was little they could do except try to keep the peace. By 2013, the military has to focus its attention on more urgent matters, Chinese infiltrators, Russians in Alaska, Mexico, etc and leave the matter to the local National Guards to deal with.

They haven't defeated the US or anything, but its more like they've managed to blend in very well especially in the larger pockets of populations (cities with still over 10,000 people). We end up with armed Canadians citizens roaming the countryside, not the Canadian military.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

China has aspirations of expansion in the Pacific Rim. Knowing that if they launched any attack they'd draw the wrath of western armies, they preemptively send in small teams of crack special operations persons into the US. These teams eventually form light battalions who split into platoon sized elements.

After the Chinese nuke the US, these teams then roam the western states attacking soft targets, disrupting communication, intercepting supplies, etc. Doing whatever they can to delay and/or disrupt any American response to the Chinese invasions now taking place in Taiwan, Japan, Korea and the Philippines.

Their tactics involve hit and run style attacks against lightly defended targets. Every now and then they capture people and either ransom them back or use them as slaves. I do envision seeing them actually giving training and support to other factions within the US, such as Mexican resistance fighters, criminal gangs, etc.

However, by 2013 these units are still functioning and occasionally raiding small towns and such. They end up not being a huge threat (as the Chinese had hoped for), they end up more like a annoyance than anything else.

I read the free download 'm not buying this approach. Perhaps in 50 yrs the US position will diminish and our nuke force collapses in ruin (after 65 yrs of poor leadership) but Canadians are going to tough it up in a bad winter not walk into nuked US.
China would just be plain insane to nuke the US... or do any form of civil unrest. They'd get glassed over in a heart beat with our ICBMs. :rofl:

This isn't Mexican forces messing around under a pro-mexican US president... this is a world power committing acts of direct aggression. In this scenario the US and Russia would both crush China to eliminate the competitor.

The original scenario had numerous items to make it work. 1) the powers of the joint chiefs, 2) failure of chemical weapons, 3) small tactical nuke strikes from both sides allowing collapse of ICBM forces and 4) most importantly the US and Russia fighting battles on several fronts.
When we first played T2k it was a concern that the environment was overly negative. The Americans we're bad guys..invaders. Because of that many people preferred the US campaigns but I preferred portraying them as liberators to locals that we're torn between who to support. That is one of the 2 points that needs fixing. A modern scenario on a global scale needs all 3 super powers to be in opposition with splintered governments without the use of ICBMs or chemical agents.

 

[Jamus]

Agreed. This explanation makes alot of assumptions that are not even remotely plausible.

If it were mine to do WW3 would creep up on the world like in the original T2000. world powers get involved in brush wars and wars by proxy in the developing nations. Terror groups manage to lay hands on NBC weapons and attack a major population center. US Russian and Chines troops deployed to many different theaters and all in opposition. Slow walk to nuclear annihilation. No ICBMs but a few tac nukes here and there.

 

[smokewolf]

The timeline and background are 60pages at over 50k words. What you've seen here is only a really small snippet of that information. A lot of the reasoning behind these actions are covered during those pages.


Take for instance, why would people migrate (not just from Canada but from anywhere else that is affected by an EMP).

(a sidebar from pg. 25)
The Nuclear Winter of 2011

The result of the nuclear exchange across Europe causes a global climate shift compounding an already harsh winter. All across the northern hemisphere countries are covered in snow measured in feet not inches. Due to the extreme heat waves that blistered the summer months for the past few years most people fell into a lull regarding winter and forgot how bad she could be.

The effects of the winner of 2011 go way beyond the numbers of dead left in its wake. Sickness is rampant and medicine in short supply, as the previous years’ wasted stockpiles caused minimal productions from pharmaceutical companies. Industry comes to a standstill; those companies not forced to close due to the weather or the EMP are forced to close due to worker shortages caused by sickness and death. By spring of 2012 there are not enough jobs, food, or money to go around for people to continue a “normal” life.

Europe is hit the hardest. On top of the unusually cold weather, Europe is also under the effects of a nuclear winter. Finland, Sweden and Norway take the brunt of the wintry blast. All three countries are blanketed in over 10m of snow and average temperatures of -20° C for almost the entire winter. The rest of Europe deals with the high numbers of refugees streaming in from the east only to find food and work shortages and a geopolitical climate not seen since post WWI Germany.

(a sidebar from pg. 21)
Spring of 2012

The effects of the extremely harsh winter of 2011 continue into the spring of 2012. The winter stretches deep into the month of March and almost into April. Across the northern hemisphere there is almost no early season planting anywhere. The cold temperature isn’t the only fault, once the weather begins to warm the melting snow and swollen rivers leave soil too unstable to plant. This interferes with more than just the spring planting; commerce, travel and other aspects of normal life are equally impeded by the rain, mud and lack of food.

It isn’t until late May and early June that many farms are able to plant crops. Once planting begins in earnest, many farms find that the much needed top soil itself has been washed away.

Large quantities of perennial crops suffer, too damaged from the freezing winter to yield anything viable. In many parts of the world this year’s harvests will be only about 10% of what it had been last year. Even the U.S. experiences a crop shortfall of over 65%. Agricultural imports that would have normally been used to offset crop shortfalls are affected as well in many nations.

(a sidebar from pg. 31)
The Death of Cities

All modern cities depend on electricity and fuel to survive. Most modern houses around the world are designed to be heated by gas or oil-fire, district heating or electricity. After the collapse of fuel trade there is little to no gas or oil available, and even if there were, the heating systems usually also depend on electricity to work.

Then come the cold winters. After embargos and EMPs, most modern buildings are uninhabitable in the cold of the winter, since there is no way to heat them safely. Open fire is inefficient and dangerous, often resulting in a burned down building. In several cases huge swathes of cities are burnt to the ground because of improvised fires (especially since modern firefighting is all but non-existent).

People in large cities demand food. This food is produced elsewhere and transported to the cities, often from hundreds of miles away. This chain of transportation needs a complicated logistical system that is completely dependent on both fuel and electricity. Without them, no-one is capable of bringing what little food survived the harsh winters to the cities’ various markets.

The larger the city, the larger its dependency on fuel, electricity and outside food sources. People living in large cities are forced to abandon them in a desperate move to find shelter and food from the surrounding countryside. The farmland does not fare much better, and the small communities are often not friendly toward a large number of urban refugees in search the already scarce food and warmth. This forces the migrations further south; Canadians flee to the U.S., Americans to Mexico, Northern Europeans to Europe, etc.




Again, this is but a small snippet of the timeline/backstory. I hope this helps. We tried to think outside of the "combat" box and try to realize what other factors will affect people during WWIII.

 

[smokewolf]

It's funny but...

If it were mine to do WW3 would creep up on the world like in the original T2000.

This was our goal. Not that the time took would be long, only that people didn't realize WWIII was upon them until they were neck deep in it.

world powers get involved in brush wars and wars by proxy in the developing nations.

That was our thinking as well. Most of the timeline/background goes into depth about these brushfire wars. My personal favorite is the campesino uprising in Bolivia.

Terror groups manage to lay hands on NBC weapons and attack a major population center.

That was our thinking as well. Stade de France

US Russian and Chines troops deployed to many different theaters and all in opposition.

That was our thinking as well. Mostly.

Russia is in Europe, Middle East, US, Canada
China is in the US (minor), Pacific (Taiwan, Japan, Koreas, the Philippines), Middle East (minor)
US is in Russia, Europe, Middle East, Pacific (Taiwan, Japan, Koreas, the Philippines), South America, Africa, UK

 

[savage]

Agreed. This explanation makes alot of assumptions that are not even remotely plausible.

If it were mine to do WW3 would creep up on the world like in the original T2000. world powers get involved in brush wars and wars by proxy in the developing nations. Terror groups manage to lay hands on NBC weapons and attack a major population center. US Russian and Chines troops deployed to many different theaters and all in opposition. Slow walk to nuclear annihilation. No ICBMs but a few tac nukes here and there.

Excellent position. I agree. Now it more plausible to use tac nukes. Could have 1+ terrorist groups start the blood bath.

 

[Jamus]

snip

Thanks for the responses and I am sure I will keep an eye on this thing.

 

[kaladorn]

So a nation with a total population of ~33,212,696 (July 2008 est.) invades a nation with a population of 301,139,947 (July 2007 est.)?? seems far fetched dont you think? I mean the population of Michigan is ~9,938,444 and has the Michigan Army National Guard at 8,910 as opposed to Canada's 60,000 regular troops and 20,000 reserves. This does not factor in the fact that Canada uses crappy gear compared to that used by US forces.

Hah, hardly. Maybe at one time, not so much anymore. Modern artillery, modern wheeled AFVs, modern mine proof vehicles, UAVs, small arms identical to the US in most regards, body armour as good or better, and well-trained, combat experienced soldiers.

Now, we are short on airlift and air support. That's true. We have limited long range logistical ability. But if you get in a fight of platoon to battalion size, you're not going to notice a lot of the difference (except air support and if heavy armour is present, but I'm not sure you'd see much of the latter fighting in North America).

I agree with the overall premise of your critique, despite my quibbling with your understanding of military realities - we could invade the US, but it would take a pretty special scenario to make that make any particular sense. If the US was flattened by massive weapons and plagues and we weren't, maybe we could think of it. But then why would you? If we both take proportionate losses, there's not practical scenario that would make invasion sensible.

And furthermore, we're more likely to come to your aid than invade. In five to seven years, even American diplomacy/foreign policy isn't likely to be able to break the world's strongest relationships of trade, common culture, and shared imperatives (we do share a continent, the same standards of living, the same language, a lot of cultural anchors, and have many common strategic interests).

The point being that Canada would have a hard time invading Michigan and would probably be held or driven back before the US mobilized its Army having a strength of ~512,400. That is not counting all US forces BTW. Even with the current US deployments over seas canada would be substantially out numbered and out gunned in any engagement with US forces and that is before we factor in every hill billy in Michigan Ohio and Kentucky that owns a rifle and feels that sniping Canadian troops would be a good idea.

Even if we had our main combat forces back (say 7000-10000 front liners) and the US had a big portion (say 300,000 K) guys deployed overseas (leaving lets say 200,000 of which maybe 30,000 might be combat forces), that's still an uphill fight. (Lots of assumptions in that math).

Of course, given tensions within the US, scenarios are constructible where the some Americans might rather ally themselves with their northern neighbors. But again, very contrived scenarios.

We're more likely to do like we did after 9/11 and in Katrina and just pitch in and help out - invasion just doesn't compute.

How? US pacfleet sleeping? We don't manage to unleash hell on china with our ICBMs and boomers? Chinese soldiers use wire-fu to jump the pacific and avoid the US fleets and aircraft that would be defending the western seaboard? Do the designers really believe that China will out pace the US in military tech by such a huge amount in the next 6-7 years that they will be able to ship enough troops across the oceans to invade the US mainland?

Well, while most of us in the West have not been paying close attention, China has built itself some lovely boomers, a fairly large navy (PLA Navy just celebrated its 60th anniversary with a big show-off including the boomers) and has developed a fairly sophisticated cyber warfare capability.

Still, it makes not much sense to attack the US. The US is their major trading partner and they hold huge amounts of the US Currency. The game scenario seems to suggest this relationship just goes away.... good luck with that ever making sense. And definitely not within 5-8 years.

China is a long term danger, just because it is gradually pushing out and establishing its own power sphere. In the long run, the math favours them over the West. But for now, economic ties are great enough and Western military technology is strong enough (though not overwhelmingly advantaged without a working economy to back it up) to limit the pace of their projection of power.

20-30 years from now, we'll look at China's roll in the world fairly differently.....

The fight in Mexico at least would be interesting since Mexico has the population and army size (Population: 108,700,891) Mexico's armed forces number some 620,400, including the reserves with a standing force of 181,356 active duty soldiers. despite the larger army and population does Mexico possess the technology to withstand a full on invasion by the US? I dont think so but that begs the question.. why would the US invade Mexico?

Why would Canada or China? Really, trade deters these sorts of wars. The breakdown of global trade would reduce that deterrent, but that's not a 5 year project.

If the US financial system continues a spiral down and foreign wars keep bleeding the treasury out with little return, the US will have some sizable issues (just like most other Western countries afflicted by the same problems). But it will take a while for the world's military hyperpower to sink. That's not just a few years. And if it does, where does anyone have profit from invading it?

No, the future 2013 history sounds contrived. But then, if the game system is good, you can always re-write the setting notes. Aftermath (FGU) used to let you pick the details of the apocalypse and only presented you with the generic rules and some suggestions of what the post-apocalypse adventures might look like. Maybe that's the 2013 route - like the game itself, rewrite the history.

I for one forsee the only military conflict between Canada and the US being if the US one day decides to physically claim resources from Canada or otherwise feels the need to exert more than simple economic hegemony. Resources at least make sense as a justification, but even then I'm not sure you could make an invasion break even.

 

[Whipsnade]

Gents,

Great. Googly. Moogly. The mind boggles.

They've actually presented this as having "reasoning" behind it.

This timeline is a perfect example of why third party playtesting is so vitally important. The people involved creating this had been so close to the material for so long that they could no longer see all the gaping holes.

Bad weather makes everyone migrate south, right? And just a few paragraphs later we're told of all those lovely fuel and electricity shortages. So how is everyone moving south again?

And there's such a great difference in climates and growing seasons between Toronto and Cleveland too. Or Windsor and Detroit. Or Duluth and Thunder Bay.

I'm not even going to touch the idea of the PLA crossing the entire Pacific Ocean just to land battalion-sized raiding teams on the US West Coast and grab slaves.

I guess I'll wait to pick up T:2013 in the remainder bin. It should be there soon.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

If I was going to redo Twilight 2000, I'd put it in an alternate history where WW3 happened just as described in the original version (Well, I'd retcon any discrepancies that I became aware of ) and set it in the year 2000.

I've never understood the inability of people to play Twilight 2000 just because they're living in year 2000+. I mean, I thought of the Twilight 2000 universe as an alternate universe from the moment it was published. I didn't need to read a newspaper from real life 2000 to know that it wasn't an accurate description of the way the real world was going to look by the year 2000.


Hans