Questions about the Primordials

[Procopius]

Hullo all, I hope I'm posting in the proper place for this, as the Primordials aren't technically canon.

I was wondering, was any official art ever produced of either the proto-Primordials in their pre-adult phase, or of a mature Primordial in or out of its shell? I've read the Q&A with Joe Fugate Sr. here and the wiki entry on them, but I'm curious as to how much more is in Knightfall -- I started with GURPS Traveller in 2000, so I'm a bit behindhand -- and MegaTraveller Journal #4, and if it'd be worth seeking them out for more information.

 

[robject]

You see ... tall, upright creatures with wide, flat bodies, long, flat heads, and tails. [Knightfall, p.70]

I've built them here, using Traveller5's sophont creation rules.

Call them canon "to some degree", though not in DGP's full vision. I've campaigned (somewhat successfully) to convert Don McKinney over to a "partial Primordial" point of view, with my own idea to rehabilitate the concept as a pre-Ancient interstellar species that met with disaster.

The material in Knightfall is significant and interesting, and of two varieties. I believe Knightfall can be found on the FFE MT CD (a wealth of info and fun for $affordable).

(1) A high-gravity world (or two?) in Massilia has devolved or young forms of what used to be Primordials. They're no longer technic, nor (I believe) are they even sentient. Unsure of the details, though. And, they (the Kebkh) may not per canon actually be related to the Primordials. So.

(2) Details of the Primordials' city, and how to access it, are in Knightfall -- and I love that sort of thing too. Buildings are described, as well as explanations for some of the otherwise inexplicable technology there. There is also holovideo of the Primordials, out of their shells I believe. There are also two semi-working artifacts: one is a one-way short-range teleporter, and the other is... well I've forgotten what it is. Anyway, they're both TL25-ish artifacts.

The city also has a clue as to what "happened" to the Primordials, but I suggest that is where the non-canon material really begins. That, and their ability to do psionic jumps, which I might handwave as a "confusion with an exceptional talent for in-system teleportation".


My take:

Primordials [Referee's Data Only]:
A sophont people who vanished from Charted Space around 1 million years ago, and migrated near the galactic core.
The Primordials have two abandoned cities accessible from Imperial space, and three from Vargr space.
The actual physical locations of those cities is unknown, perhaps in very tiny pocket empires.
The Zhodani Core Route is part of Grandfather's plan to search for the Primordials.
Their Tech level was somewhere around the "psionic engineering" level when they met their fate.

 

[Procopius]

Thanks for the response! I like the idea of "Ancient-er Ancients", so I'm pleased to read that the Primordials/"Sparklers" (terrible nickname, that) are at least sort of semi-canonical. I keep meaning to pick up the MT CD, I really need to give it a look. As a GURPS Traveller referee, the Rebellion-era sourcebooks and rules are the stuff I know the least about.

It sounds like there's no actual artwork of these guys (or of the Kebkah), sadly, but it sounds like Knightfall will still be an essential purchase. I have sort of a bifurcated interest in Traveller both as a pure setting, and also as a universe for running games in; the Primordials are part of the former for me, rather than something I'd likely use in a campaign.

 

[Orr]

Call them canon "to some degree", though not in DGP's full vision.

So, where should we draw the line? Everything in Knightfall is canon while everything found elsewhere is not? I'd like to keep the Primordials, so it would be nice to have a easily distinguished "border" of sorts.

Also, wasn't one the creature on the cover of Grand Census supposed to be a devolved Primordial? Or have I mistaken a Bwap for a Primordial?

 

[Procopius]

Also, wasn't one the creature on the cover of Grand Census supposed to be a devolved Primordial? Or have I mistaken a Bwap for a Primordial?

Looks like a Bwap to me, as I understand them.

 

[Orr]

Looks like a Bwap to me, as I understand them.

Me too, but I've this nagging memory of Mr. Fugate making a comment or answering a question in which he mentions something about a devolved Primordial appearing on a DGP/MT cover or illo somewhere.

 

[Procopius]

Me too, but I've this nagging memory of Mr. Fugate making a comment or answering a question in which he mentions something about a devolved Primordial appearing on a DGP/MT cover or illo somewhere.

Is it this? He says here that "[t]he cover of World Builder's Handbook is the same world that's in the folio adventure of the Ref's kit." Prior to this he says "there are two primordial sites in the Imperium ... one is given in Knightfall, the other (never mentioned) is underground on the world in the folio adventure from the Referee's Kit."

 

[robject]

Responding to my suggestion that the Primordials may be, should be, "semi-canon":

So, where should we draw the line? Everything in Knightfall is canon while everything found elsewhere is not? I'd like to keep the Primordials, so it would be nice to have a easily distinguished "border" of sorts.

I'd like the Primordials to be canonical as well. The border is nonexistent as of yet, because Marc previously declared the Primordials non-canon. I'm trying to give them an existence, albeit one which ended quite a while before the Ancients. There's room for that.

I think Knightfall is nearly all canonical -- it says very little about the builders of the Shimmering City, so there's not much to get in the way. It's the unwritten concept behind those sophonts that's non-canon. At least.

So in a way, I'm not arguing for much, and in fact I may be arguing for nothing that's not already there. We'll see.

(Yes, canon is only for people who will publish. Referees do whatever they wish, whenever they wish. Me included. But still.)

Here's what Knightfall says:

The Shimmering City [...] can be dated to around -600,000 [...]
[T]he city was built by a mysterious race which the Ancients themselves were studying [...]
[...] archaeologists have coined a name for this new, previously unknown starfaring race: the Primordials.

* Something like globe technology shields the entire city.
* They built "sentry" towers into their city, situated in a pocket universe of unknown size (p53: "a startling, glimmering, city-like scene appears, sitting on a flat plane that runs in all directions to the horizon.").
* Some of their walkways could have been built on globe technology. [my speculation only]
* Flora and architecture both follow a spiral pattern.
* They built vertically. Living quarters were in high rises, just like other buildings.
* They have Telekinesis and Teleportation.
* They left because "they were dissatisfied". Ennui is a possible reason for vacating their city, although there was likely more to it than that.
* They used organic starship hulls.
* They did not use jump grids, but they did have jump technology (the unpublished backstory claims they could jump psionically. THAT is absolutely not canon. Knightfall does not state this error, so the book is OK there.)
* The Primordials apparently "died from boredom". I suspect that that is not a canon statement, and that there are other theories.
* Artifact: a "Teleportation Artifact" (WHY create one if you can ALREADY teleport things with your BRAIN???)
* Artifact: Relativity Pistol. Now that is useful to anyone.

 

[Orr]

Is it this?

That's it. Funny how my memory changed it from "picture of world with unknown Primordial city" to "picture of Primordial"! o:

Thanks.

 

[Orr]

I'd like the Primordials to be canonical as well. The border is nonexistent as of yet, because Marc previously declared the Primordials non-canon. I'm trying to give them an existence, albeit one which ended quite a while before the Ancients. There's room for that.

I see. It's something like there being small-p primordials and big-P Primordials with the former being (hopefully) canonical and the latter not.

The small-p type are the vague, little detailed ones responsible for the pre-Ancients city in Knightfall and nothing more while the big-P types are the somewhat more detailed, Grandfather is studying us, we migrated to the Core, ones that Mr. Fugate spoke about.

Artifact: a "Teleportation Artifact" (WHY create one if you can ALREADY teleport things with your BRAIN???)

Beats me. We use books-on-tape despite being able to read because audio books are convenient in some situations. (Audio books also are helpful for disabled people, although I don't think the Artifact is a teleportation "crutch" of sorts.)

The recordings in the Shining City also showed "adults" and "children". Maybe the kids couldn't teleport or couldn't teleport safely and still needed to teleport around the city.

Whatever the reason, I'm sure you'll come up with some plausible explanation. Seeing as they're alien, a plausible explanation could be as simple as saying It makes no sense to humans.!

 

[robject]

I see. It's something like there being small-p primordials and big-P Primordials with the former being (hopefully) canonical and the latter not.

The small-p type are the vague, little detailed ones responsible for the pre-Ancients city in Knightfall and nothing more while the big-P types are the somewhat more detailed, Grandfather is studying us, we migrated to the Core, ones that Mr. Fugate spoke about.

Ding ding ding ding. We have a winner. That sounds about right.

[Why create a teleport artifact if you can already teleport]

[Several good reasons suggested by Orr]

I think you've got more winners there. Children haven't developed, yet... heck, it could be a pitcher's tool for their version of Teleporter Baseball.

And very likely: many of them can Teleport, but not all.

 

[Orr]

Ding ding ding ding. We have a winner. That sounds about right.

So Knightfall is our canon "border" or "line"? Small-p primordials limited to the few "facts" mentioned in Knightfall are canon while big-p Primordials with the backstory Mr. Fugate spoke about are (sadly) not?

We get to keep that wonderful city in canon and that's a good thing.

And, best of all, we can all still use the big-p Primordials in our games no matter their canonical status.

Addendum: T5 has discussions concerning how sophonts/civilizations "peak" and then devolve, dwindle, move on, whatever. I know the Kursae(?) are discussed in that vein, so perhaps the Knightfall primordials could be another example?

 

[aramis]

Note that the Ancients used teleportation hardware, despite many of them being able to teleport... [cite: CT A12 SOTA)

Teleport, under CT, MT, T4, and T20 is expensive in power points; you don't use it a lot as a psionicist. Mechanical teleport systems can use power plants instead.

 

[mike wightman]

(WHY create one if you can ALREADY teleport things with your BRAIN???)

Why did we invent - insert your method of transport here - when we can already run? Teleportation costs a lot of pp

The network means the machines are doing it for you rather than you having to do it yourself. It would also be useful as a postal network...

As to why the primordial are none canon I would think it has something to do with the sparklers story line being binned in favour of the TNE empress wave.

That doesn't mean you can't have primordials, it is the sparklers story arc that was going to be in DGP's Zhodani &Droyne book that is de-canonised.

 

[robject]

@Wil and Mike: very true. I even realized after-posting that for all I know the device could be an automated "pitcher" for practicing their version of Teleportation Baseball, Teleportation Rounders, Teleportation Cricket, or whatever.

Addendum: T5 has discussions concerning how sophonts/civilizations "peak" and then devolve, dwindle, move on, whatever. I know the Kursae(?) are discussed in that vein, so perhaps the Knightfall primordials could be another example?

Another good suggestion, Orr. Thank you.

 

[Procopius]

So per the interview with Joe Fugate, it seems as though the Primordials weren't really supposed to be hostile, just rather alien and distractible. How were they going to fill the role of "baddies from the core", a term I've seen used in reference to them?

 

[robject]

So per the interview with Joe Fugate, it seems as though the Primordials weren't really supposed to be hostile, just rather alien and distractible. How were they going to fill the role of "baddies from the core", a term I've seen used in reference to them?

Your guess is as good as mine. All I know is his answers here. Could their curiosity be devastating on the order of wrecking Charted Space?

 

[Drakon]

* Artifact: a "Teleportation Artifact" (WHY create one if you can ALREADY teleport things with your BRAIN???)

Artifact makes teleportation less stressful, less painful (if painful) less resource or enegry consumption.(Buffer, Amp or Battery)

Artifact allows Sparkler to carry larger payload, or a person or biological sample. ("Knapsack")

Artifact protects Sparkler during teleportation from some peculiar or particular hazzard.(Armor)

Artifacts is an informational device that tells the Sparkler how far/what direction they have travelled. Artifact tells Sparkler local conditions of teleport target prior to travel. ("guide" or "tricorder")

 

[robject]

So per the interview with Joe Fugate, it seems as though the Primordials weren't really supposed to be hostile, just rather alien and distractible. How were they going to fill the role of "baddies from the core", a term I've seen used in reference to them?

DGP wanted the Zhodani's coreward expeditions to be instigated by Yaskoydray, in order to follow the trail of the Primordials. Eventually they'd find them...

"We had expected the first encounter between the Zhodani and the primordials would be misunderstood by the Zhodani because the primordials would start doing intrusive psionic probes and the Zho's would mistake that as aggression and attack."

... and then the Primordials would unleash an unstoppable fleet against the Zhodani that would push all the way into the Imperium, forcing the two polities to unite in one big fight (hence, Baddies from the Core).

(To make matters worse, any apparent evil intent on the part of the "sparklers" is simply becaue of their intense curiousity / absentmindeness attributes.)



Also, check out MegaTraveller Journal #4.
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[whulorigan]

Just an FYI:

The Galaxy Map & Secret Appendix to the IISS Second Survey on the T5 disc does mention and label "Core Sophonts" . . .

(Whatever they might be).