Should it be considered non-canon?

[robject]

Last I knew, the principle around here was T5 supersedes all previous material for the purposes of canon, and if T5 doesn't address, it's the latest material.


I would presume Travellermap would need to be settled as to how canon it is.

Now that this poll has had over a week to circulate, and now that you have data...was your original thesis validated? Or did you find out something that you might not have suspected?

And how is this conclusion different from the one conducted in the other, but very similar poll, regarding canon in the OTU?

I've found that probably the best way to state what is "in" the setting is via a Guide which may gather odd bits together, and provides a list of extent published documents as resources that best represent it, instead of allowing all published material to be fair game. That way madness lies, to use Shakespeare incorrectly.

This could profitably be broken down further into milieu guides. The most important one would probably be

* Sharik's Guide to the Third Imperium, 1115.

Sharik could be the "main" Narrator, and Gannigar could be the "Contrarian" who occasionally pops in his head with a warning.

These polls have helped me form these opinions.

 

[77topaz]

Last I knew, the principle around here was T5 supersedes all previous material for the purposes of canon, and if T5 doesn't address, it's the latest material.


I would presume Travellermap would need to be settled as to how canon it is.

For the sectors of the Imperium (and a few beyond - every sector not marked "unofficial"), TravellerMap uses the data from the Traveller 5 Second Survey - which is currently the most canon of all the maps/dataset.

 

[inexorabletash]

I'll share my stance, if it is useful.

There is a single Platonic OTU, a which has a set of facts that define it. What we know of those facts is through a series of unreliable stories and opinions about the details of those facts and the causal linkage between them.

There are multiple ATUs of note which diverge, including GURPS post-1116 (ish) and 1248 (where not reconcileable).

Rule systems (including descriptions of technology) are an approximation for the purposes of playing a game. They are coarse and intentionally simplifying, much as Chess does not accurately describe archaic warfare, and Magic: The Gathering does not accurately describe a duel between two wizards. They may invent limitations or abilities which make for a better game than a pure simulation, and are a biased view on the OTU.

"Canon" is the set of sources which contribute to all of the above. Not everything in a canonical source accurately describes facts about the OTU.

 

[ovka]

My preference is to reconcile as much as possible where there are contradictions between sources. Having said that, it appears that Mongoose seems to be heading that direction.

If there are differences between rules sets, the most current one should be used (though there are two current ones right now).

My dream Traveller product would allow me to select a region of Known space and a time period, and provide me with the canon material available for that region/time.

Cheers,

Baron Ovka

 

[Grav_Moped]

My dream Traveller product would allow me to select a region of Known space and a time period, and provide me with the canon material available for that region/time.

I like that as an aspirational goal. There ought to be some algorithmic method of "rolling back" UWPs across a period of time, but it's likely to be a rather complex one.

 

[77topaz]

I like that as an aspirational goal. There ought to be some algorithmic method of "rolling back" UWPs across a period of time, but it's likely to be a rather complex one.

I don't know if you're aware of this, but TravellerMap already has a rudimentary version of this concept: you can view the maps in several different milieux. Currently, the only milieux before 1105 are the Interstellar Wars, the T4 Milieu 0 and 990 (the Solomani Rim War), but it's a step towards what you're suggesting.

 

[ManOfGrey]

Wow! How do you do that?

I don't know if you're aware of this, but TravellerMap already has a rudimentary version of this concept: you can view the maps in several different milieux. Currently, the only milieux before 1105 are the Interstellar Wars, the T4 Milieu 0 and 990 (the Solomani Rim War), but it's a step towards what you're suggesting.

Really? I would really like to see the Milieu 0 version of the TravellerMap. Where's the control to do that? Apparently I'm not smart enough to find it on my own. (I even tried reading the instructions...which is always a sign of weakness.)

 

[whulorigan]

Really? I would really like to see the Milieu 0 version of the TravellerMap. Where's the control to do that? Apparently I'm not smart enough to find it on my own. (I even tried reading the instructions...which is always a sign of weakness.)

1. In the upper right corner of TravellerMap, click the button with the three horizontal lines.
2. Make sure to check "Enable Experiments" under Options on the resulting drop-down menu.
3. Click the button along the top that looks like a clock-face.

 

[BRJN]

I would really like to see the Milieu 0 version of the TravellerMap.

Milieu 0 (and Interstellar Wars for that matter) TravellerMaps cover much less ground than the 'default' map. It does cover the area you need to use the Sourcebooks to craft a campaign. While I would like to see the ISW map expanded,* I am OK with the fact that priorities lie elsewhere.

* and corrections made - where did that class A starport at Sirius come from? Gurps: ISW says Sirius has no constructed facilities.

 

[Grav_Moped]

I don't know if you're aware of this, but TravellerMap already has a rudimentary version of this concept: you can view the maps in several different milieux. Currently, the only milieux before 1105 are the Interstellar Wars, the T4 Milieu 0 and 990 (the Solomani Rim War), but it's a step towards what you're suggesting.

Thank you!

Looks like the Vilani don't yet know what's going on in Solmani space in Milleu 0 (probably an artifact of the limits of published material for the setting).

 

[boomslang]

I tried to think of more books to add for consideration. Any thoughts?

Double Adventure 1 Shadows/Annic Nova

While I am genuinely coincidentally choosing Hallowe'en to recognize that both of these are Sci-Fi variations on the "haunted house" genre -- intended to be moody, atmospheric (as it were) suspense/mystery adventures -- I have always felt that the "Annic Nova" herself breaks canon regarding Jump Drives and their required Jump Fuel in a way that puts both Xboats and J-torps to shame.

The found-starship adventure is an excellent example of putting the emphasis on the narrative of a particular (possibly one-shot) adventure, rather than obsessing over consistent world-building in service to the Grand Scheme of Things.

Although I must give propers to Shadows for introducing the coyns.

 

[mike wightman]

I have to point out that there is a fundamental setting secret hidden within the Annic Nova so its place in canon is pretty safe.

 

[Timerover51]

Double Adventure 1 Shadows/Annic Nova

While I am genuinely coincidentally choosing Hallowe'en to recognize that both of these are Sci-Fi variations on the "haunted house" genre -- intended to be moody, atmospheric (as it were) suspense/mystery adventures -- I have always felt that the "Annic Nova" herself breaks canon regarding Jump Drives and their required Jump Fuel in a way that puts both Xboats and J-torps to shame.

The found-starship adventure is an excellent example of putting the emphasis on the narrative of a particular (possibly one-shot) adventure, rather than obsessing over consistent world-building in service to the Grand Scheme of Things.

Although I must give propers to Shadows for introducing the coyns.

As Marc wrote Annic Nova, I am not sure how you can consider it as non-canon. It does show that there are more ways to make a Jump Drive than have been laid out in any of the various rule editions.

 

[aramis]

As Marc wrote Annic Nova, I am not sure how you can consider it as non-canon. It does show that there are more ways to make a Jump Drive than have been laid out in any of the various rule editions.

Not so. (You might wish to stop making such broad assertions.)
First off, its JDrive is standard, except for the fuel source. It literally replaces the fuel with the collector, but otherwise is a bog-standard jump drive for how it operates. Further, the Collector fueling method is canonical in T5.

TNE (and T4) included several non-canon FTL forms in FF&S; stutterwarp, stargates, keyhole drives, subspace (like Babylon 5's hyperspace), psionic transfer drive... but NOT the "Exotic Particle Collector"

Canon, we only see 2 FTL types in the OTU pre-T5: Jump, and Pocket Universe gates.
Note that the three exits from Adv 12's pocket universe are further apart on the jump-centric marches map than the inside distance between them.

The Annic Nova has a variant powerplant supporting the J-Drive, not an alternate form of FTL; it obeys all other jump rules except the jump fuel. As stated above, the collector is a standard tech in T5. it's not used for commerce because it's non-viable commercially in a fusion PP driven Jump Drive using interstellar community.

 

[Grav_Moped]

True, with the minor detail that the ANNIC NOVA's Collectors are inconsistent with T5 Collectors (no degradation with use, of higher TL than stated in the ship's description*, not capable of recharging in deep space, capable of providing ship power including power for two single laser turrets)


*Based on the origin story, the Collector should be able to store/release energy as though it were a Collector-5 drive (TL-17 standard, 16 as prototype). Even assuming it's actually a Collector-3 and a Collector-2 packaged together instead, the Collector-3 is at least TL-14 (and that as a prototype).

 

[mike wightman]

1. Pocket universe gates do not offer FTL travel between systems unless you build an awful lot of portal networks - maximum range is 72 light minutes.

The ship in Secret of the Ancients has to use its jump drive to jump between the systems inside the pocket universe that contains three star systems.

Taking a portal gate through jump space disconnects it from the portal network.

2. The Annic Nova hides the secret of the Hieronymus drive nexus...

 

[aramis]

True, with the minor detail that the ANNIC NOVA's Collectors are inconsistent with T5 Collectors (no degradation with use, of higher TL than stated in the ship's description*, not capable of recharging in deep space, capable of providing ship power including power for two single laser turrets)


*Based on the origin story, the Collector should be able to store/release energy as though it were a Collector-5 drive (TL-17 standard, 16 as prototype). Even assuming it's actually a Collector-3 and a Collector-2 packaged together instead, the Collector-3 is at least TL-14 (and that as a prototype).

Note that when AN was written, Bk5 wasn't out, and TL limited drive size, not drive performance. Further, it's explicitly 2 separate units. Drive J. is TL 12; if we assume as in T5 that collectors are 2 TL above JD... it needs TL 14.
Drive
600 tons...
020 bridge
050 JD J=3
180 Collector in lieu of fuel J3
120 Collector in lieu of fuel J2
150 cargo
003 Model 3
032 Staterooms x8 (not standard sizes)
080 Pinnaces (40T each) in collars
5 Td overage - taken from SR. (as you can shift some of that space into the cutters' staterooms)

Note that the drawings show about 115 Td cargo if 3.1m ceilings...
The bridge deck is 25 Td IF using 2.07m ceilings.
It's pretty much a straight book 2-77 design, just replacing the fuel with collector.

 

[mike wightman]

The Annic Nova has two jump drives, a jump drive F and a jump drive J (or rather their alien equivalents).

The collector array replaces jump fuel and there is no power plant or power plant fuel.

Counting deck plan squares can give an approximate idea of how much space must be take up by the collector array.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Note that when AN was written, Bk5 wasn't out, and TL limited drive size, not drive performance. Further, it's explicitly 2 separate units. Drive J. is TL 12; if we assume as in T5 that collectors are 2 TL above JD... it needs TL 14.
Drive
600 tons...
020 bridge
050 JD J=3
180 Collector in lieu of fuel J3
120 Collector in lieu of fuel J2
150 cargo
003 Model 3
032 Staterooms x8 (not standard sizes)
080 Pinnaces (40T each) in collars
5 Td overage - taken from SR. (as you can shift some of that space into the cutters' staterooms)

Note that the drawings show about 115 Td cargo if 3.1m ceilings...
The bridge deck is 25 Td IF using 2.07m ceilings.
It's pretty much a straight book 2-77 design, just replacing the fuel with collector.

This explains why T5 Collectors no longer power ship systems while AN's did.

AN's Collectors, being LBB2 ('77) weren't required to incorporate a powerplant to provide power to the ship. (Therefore, the '81 rules change broke the design, and nobody noticed.)

T5 Collectors are modeled on the '77 rules (not requiring a matched power plant) but operating under the '81 rules (all ships require a power plant).

I also like the retcon (justification for / explanation of) "LBB2 Collector Drives". Consider it stolen.


ETA: I still think Collectors should be allowed to charge a battery bank sufficient to support basic ship operation for a few weeks every time the Jump Drive is fired up, by placing some kind of inductive generator on the Jump Drive exhaust. This wouldn't support anything that requires Energy Points; just environmental control, avionics, and artificial gravity (the EP draw of large computers may need to be handwaved). If more than that is necessary, a larger inductive generator is required (sized and costing like a power plant and fuel, but limited to the rating of the Jump Drive -- it doesn't require fuel as it just processes the Jump Drive exhaust).

 

[creativehum]

No, I'm not. I'm describing it at the "Sups 8+11" level. Or stronger.

I pretty much expect my traveller groups to skim either the bulk of 8 & 11 or of MT IE Player's Library Data. And I make those available to them prior to play. (which is why I own 5 copies of IE in dead tree...)

And yet, in another thread, you note that your players don't read these materials and this frustrates you.

I'm curious how you square this.