General The Scout Courier is a terrible explorer

[AnotherDilbert]

I didn't say stock civilian, just form factors to get X job done. Depending on the mission mix, there could be enough ordered of an A2S (or SA2?) to get common type cost reduction.

Agreed, but the next step up, a 200 Dt J-2 ship, adds ~60 Dt payload, but also costs in the region of MCr 70 using a LLB2 design with a custom hull, even with standard design rebate.

The 100 Dt standard hull is very cheap, making the Scout a very attractive package.

The next usable standard hull is 400 Dt, making a J-2 ship MCr >100 with almost 200 Dt payload. Good platform, but much more expensive than a Scout.

The Type S is marginally more expensive then a small craft but can move critical messages, personnel, small critical cargo/parts, do ersatz rescue, fleet scouting (albeit more likely fixed point watching), and light exploration. As such it's a ridiculously effective ship for the service's purposes- just not a heavy explorer.

Quite.

 

[Condottiere]

From the perspective of the Scout Service, the Suleimans are disposable, and so are the crews.

It's pretty much a legacy design, both in terms of the game itself and the historical timeline, since I assume that once nation states can construct bijump hyper engines at technological level eleven, they will, and stuff it on the smallest viable starship.

From an ingame perspective, minimal maintenance and operating costs.

 

[Selandia]

a key design feature is the use of standard M, J, engines and powerplant, as well as a standard hull. The most remote imperial world, if capable to perform starship maintenance and repair at all, would have maintenance tools, parts and knowledge to maintain the standard model (is'nt it the whole point of standard?).

It is one thing to have a class C starport in District 268 and something else to have there the part for that one of a kind wonder gizmo from the Glisten shipyard (ships designed with T5 using the prototype performance)

Yes, you can do better than the S type by optimising 100-400 t hull with other systems than LBB. From the strategic and operational perspective however, flooding sectors with starships for communication and sentry involve a lot of starships that are cheap to produce, with low manning requirement, maintained and repaired as close to the site of operation as possible so as to achieve a better operating cycle. Logistic is of the essence of sustained operation. Specially in forward area.

Of course, players cannot run a exhaustive planetary survey from a S scout, but the game universe needed a "land rover" and so is the S type

Have fun

Selandia

 

[Timerover51]

Partly it would depend on how closely your followed the rules covering the Scout Ship in terms of power and life support.

For power, I assume that I have one cubic meter of D2O, heavy water, included in my power plant volume. That contains 221.4 kilograms of Deuterium, and just under 1.5 kilograms, 1,468 grams, will supply 10 megawatts of continuous power for an entire years. Ten megawatts is a lot of power for just basic ship operation, not including operation of the maneuver drive. With that much power, even if furnished with less that 100% efficiency of fuel, you can remain fully powered on a planet for a long time.

In another thread on "Life Support", I discuss how much volume is required for food for 4 or 5 men for 30 days, and it is less than a cubic meter. If you have ever been on a World War 2 era submarine, you will discover how thoroughly food was squirreled away in every possible space. Allowing for the same thing on the Scout, you should be able to get a year's worth of rations stashed onboard, without excessive problems.

As long as you are on a planet with access to water, you can cover your oxygen and water needs, along with getting fuel.

The Scout might not be the ideal exploration ship, I prefer them a bit larger, but it does make for a reasonable survey ship for a planet. That is, as long as you are not dealing with corrosive or excessively exotic atmospheres.

 

[Shadow Shack]

It's the VW Bug (Bug, not 'new' Beetle) if the Imperium: inexpensive and built to stay that way. Other space travellers often play the game of "Slug Sulieman" when they spot one...

 

[RandyB]

It's the VW Bug (Bug, not 'new' Beetle) if the Imperium: inexpensive and built to stay that way. Other space travellers often play the game of "Slug Sulieman" when they spot one...

Closer to the "VW bus", including rough living standards.

 

[Condottiere]

So the seats come off if you brake too hard, and the drives are air cooled and can catch fire?

 

[Blue Ghost]

Question(s)

Question;

Preface to question; so, I've only ever dabbled with basic and MT starship construction. I did some experimentation with T5, was never a real big fan of Trillion Credit. My point being is that I have some experience, but not a whole lot.

Ergo, my question is this; hoe come there aren't more odd numbered hull designs to give the basic scout ship more legs for exploration, or extended survey? Sometihng like a 150 ton hull, or a 200, 225, 300 or 350 ton hull design with the basic flat wedge hull?

p.s. I tacked on two more staterooms onto Wayne Peters' Florian, though I haven't specd the thing yet, but a rough guess is that it's maybe in the 125 or 150 ton hull range. More space, more fuel space, longer on station endurance, but on more distance than a type-S. But, 50 more tons and maybe I can cram a j2 in there.

Sorry if I sound very noobish here.

 

[Condottiere]

Except for some really secret cutting edge sensors, the Scout Service probably prefers cheap off the shelf equipment and machinery, which would mean that they'd have to design their ships around alphabet drives and motors.

 

[Shadow Shack]

So the seats come off if you brake too hard, and the drives are air cooled and can catch fire?

Well...the design has been around for over a century.

 

[Selandia]

Question;

Ergo, my question is this; hoe come there aren't more odd numbered hull designs to give the basic scout ship more legs for exploration, or extended survey? Sometihng like a 150 ton hull, or a 200, 225, 300 or 350 ton hull design with the basic flat wedge hull?

because when every number is rounded, there is no benefit to intermediate number. Why design at 150t a drive A ship if you have the limitation of a 200 t ship (m1, J1,) as you shift bracket on the matrix? you may as well throw in 50 t of anything and round up.

as to the wedge, unless mass produced, it is an expensive design (ratio surface/volume ) that can be justified on ground of structural strength and versatility (water landing, limited lifting to assist anti grav, aerodynamic suitable for tumultuous athm of various density...). The 'waste" space is used by the substantial fuel tankage. Commercial design need to be more cost effective as they are space travelling warehouse intended to turn a profit. Save Free Trader, they tend to be optimised for a line, with holds suitable for containerisation of general cargo or adapted to planet specific break bulk export.

have fun

Selandia

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Quite, the basic design system in LBB2 discourages ships with irregular-sized hulls, so the basic expectations for small ships were set to 100 Dt, 200 Dt, and 400 Dt early on.

But there are exceptions, such as the Wind class (extended Serpent class) scout at 150 Dt (Merchants & Assassins).
http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Wind_class_Scout/Courier


For flat wedge hull, we always have the Kinunir and Fiery classes.

Kinunir:

Fiery:

 

[whartung]

For some reason I though there was a 150 ton "Long Scout" floating around out there somewhere.

 

[mike wightman]

The devil is in the detail.
In LBB2 81 if you build a 199t ship you use the drives of a 200t ship but you don't need a navigator, you don't need engineers and you don't need a medic.

 

[Shadow Shack]

The devil is in the detail.
In LBB2 81 if you build a 199t ship you use the drives of a 200t ship but you don't need a navigator, you don't need engineers and you don't need a medic.

You don't need engineers or medics on any ship, at least not until the equipment or crew stops working.

I'd like to know the rationale behind that one ton difference needing a navigator or not. Without an explanation it's like tire dealers and their bogus 5 year safe/unsafe policies (which is both an excuse to sell you more tires and ignore their road hazard warranties).

I.e. why is it a scout/courier can make Jump-2 without a navigator but a free trader with the exact same MD/JD/PP needs a navigator for Jump-1?

 

[mike wightman]

Because of what it says in the rules about required crew...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Neither the Scout nor the Free Trader needs a Navigator:

Navigator: Each starship with a mass displacement of greater than 200 tons requires at least one navigator.

Engineers depend on edition:

Engineer: The requirement for engineer is based on power plant and drive size. On any starship of mass displacement greater than 100 tons, one engineer is required for each 35 tons of mass displacement of drives ...

Changed to 200 Dt and over in LBB2'81.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

For some reason I though there was a 150 ton "Long Scout" floating around out there somewhere.

This is the common one?

But there are exceptions, such as the Wind class (extended Serpent class) scout at 150 Dt (Merchants & Assassins).
http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Wind_class_Scout/Courier

 

[Blue Ghost]

because when every number is rounded, there is no benefit to intermediate number. Why design at 150t a drive A ship if you have the limitation of a 200 t ship (m1, J1,) as you shift bracket on the matrix? you may as well throw in 50 t of anything and round up.

as to the wedge, unless mass produced, it is an expensive design (ratio surface/volume ) that can be justified on ground of structural strength and versatility (water landing, limited lifting to assist anti grav, aerodynamic suitable for tumultuous athm of various density...). The 'waste" space is used by the substantial fuel tankage. Commercial design need to be more cost effective as they are space travelling warehouse intended to turn a profit. Save Free Trader, they tend to be optimised for a line, with holds suitable for containerisation of general cargo or adapted to planet specific break bulk export.

have fun

Selandia

That's right. I forgot about the rounding effect. It's been years since I looked at the starship design rules. Sorry about that. Maybe this is something for the next iteration of T5 to look at. Just a thought.

 

[Shadow Shack]

Because of what it says in the rules about required crew...

Yep and as I posted --- what do the rules say about needing a navigator for half the jump on a bigger ship when the smaller ship that jumps farther does not need one?

There's gotta be more to it than "'cuz duh rulez sed so"...seriously, we could eliminate 90% of the discussions on this board based on that premise.

Neither the Scout nor the Free Trader needs a Navigator

Fine, make it a Jump-1 Subsidized Merchant then. Same question still applies, the smaller higher performance ship doesn't need what the slower and sloppier one does. No nav for a Jump-2 on the Type-S but the fat trader needs one to go half as far. It's like saying "I'm taking a trip out of state in my sports car, no need for maps or GPS" compared to "I'm going down the road to the grocery store in my van, better grab the maps and GPS for that trip".