Madarin Dude
SOC-13
Well hydraulic fluid is a odd desaturated red in color but you get the idea spent a lot of time in maintenance.
Imperial Navy Uniforms
- Thread starter Andrew Boulton
- Start date
Link for the naval dazzle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazzle_camouflage
At USMA they were working on a similar idea for helicopter gunships in the mid-80's.
The computer generated uniform stuff is given decent treatment at
http://www.hyperstealth.com/CADPAT-MARPAT.htm
though the author ignores the krauts, who had a good version in the late 80's.:nonono:
Ganidirsii O'Flynn
SOC-12
Look, in the two modern naval forces that Traveller takes it's cue from, duty uniforms are supposed to GET dirty. They are designed to be easily cleaned.
Taking that to an extension, if the 3I can design issuable (and, hence, disposable) clothing that resists staining (Combat Environment Suits, for example) wouldn't the also produce VACC SUIT (much more expensive) uniforms to do the same thing?
In the British and the American Navies, camoflage clothing is entirely the realm of the Marines. I just point that out for logic's sake; canon being what it is.
Just a thought, your TU may vary.
Taking that to an extension, if the 3I can design issuable (and, hence, disposable) clothing that resists staining (Combat Environment Suits, for example) wouldn't the also produce VACC SUIT (much more expensive) uniforms to do the same thing?
In the British and the American Navies, camoflage clothing is entirely the realm of the Marines. I just point that out for logic's sake; canon being what it is.
Just a thought, your TU may vary.
I agree. First, on the cammo, I was talking about boarding parties, who would typically be marines. Specifically, on boarding parties where the use of force is a given. [More in the vein of: Blow a hole in your hull, followed by a few grenades, then a few chaps with energy weapons; as opposed to: a few polite but reasonably well-armed guards accompanying a customs-type inspection. "Don't mind if I do. Yeah, how 'bout that solar flare last week. Mind if we check you cargo manifest? Formality, but the ole' man's a stickler!"] Particularly if the `forceful' boarding party were not marines, they might be all the more keen to dress like them.
As to vacc suits, this is an idea I had forgotten. In an old TAS article, it talked about a MilStd vacc suit, which was worn abord naval ships as (if my memory serves) a standard uniform. It was in essence a body glove to which a helmet could be fitted and over which other protection could be fitted for EVA, etc. Unlike the normal Vacc Suit, called CivStd, the MilStd was not treated like cloth. The MilStd was made for long-term wear, but maybe not constant. This might be a fairly normal uniform for any on duty activity that involved any chance of mishap (patrolling, fuel skimming, docking,etc).
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Have you seen the recently announced Naval Duty Uniform for the US Navy? It's blue and grey camouflage...
Here's a link to navy news... http://www.news.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=22519
For that matter, the new Air Force Uniform is a digital tiger stripe:
http://www.afspc.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/060323-F-0000Z-001.jpg
:rofl:
http://www.afspc.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/060323-F-0000Z-001.jpg
:rofl:
A quick note...
Going back to the Dazzle camo for ships, one it rocked, I still love it and two, it reminded me of a clever little thing the upstairs neighbors (Canada) are doing on their F/A-18s, they painted a false black canopy on the underside of the fuselage of the aircraft, annoyingly it seems to work.
So, the whole bleeding US military is going to camo, yuck, now if only the badguys weren't dressed in crappy civilian looking stuff, we might be ok again. Hmmm, maybe we can start a get nicer uniforms for the other guys drive.
I really don't see why the 3I has need of camo except for the aforementioned boarding parties, where it seems to me a must, and given that here on good old Terra circa 1990s tech (TL7-8) we can apply camo to a weapon, I would suppose that the whole kit and caboodle of the ImpMarines would have some sort of optical camo if not a full on ectro-optical system shades of Mr. Shirow's ESWAT and Section 9 troopers.
Otherwise, I would think that Areo-space forces would have a basic black and cooled suit with a beacon for when battle was over and blasting on guard was safe again. As for the IN, I'd go for a single color, blue being my personal fave, (as color studies suggest that it promotes an unconscious trust response). As most of the time people will see the Navy personnel they will be suggesting to them to behave or get some Marines dropped on them, or Ortillery, or even asking for the terms of their surrender, one hopes...I suppose sometimes they might have to give to.
Again, just my thoughts.
Going back to the Dazzle camo for ships, one it rocked, I still love it and two, it reminded me of a clever little thing the upstairs neighbors (Canada) are doing on their F/A-18s, they painted a false black canopy on the underside of the fuselage of the aircraft, annoyingly it seems to work.
So, the whole bleeding US military is going to camo, yuck, now if only the badguys weren't dressed in crappy civilian looking stuff, we might be ok again. Hmmm, maybe we can start a get nicer uniforms for the other guys drive.
I really don't see why the 3I has need of camo except for the aforementioned boarding parties, where it seems to me a must, and given that here on good old Terra circa 1990s tech (TL7-8) we can apply camo to a weapon, I would suppose that the whole kit and caboodle of the ImpMarines would have some sort of optical camo if not a full on ectro-optical system shades of Mr. Shirow's ESWAT and Section 9 troopers.
Otherwise, I would think that Areo-space forces would have a basic black and cooled suit with a beacon for when battle was over and blasting on guard was safe again. As for the IN, I'd go for a single color, blue being my personal fave, (as color studies suggest that it promotes an unconscious trust response). As most of the time people will see the Navy personnel they will be suggesting to them to behave or get some Marines dropped on them, or Ortillery, or even asking for the terms of their surrender, one hopes...I suppose sometimes they might have to give to.
Again, just my thoughts.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Hey, I thought that was supposed to be secret :nonono:
Of course it takes a few extra hours of training to get the pilots to stop trying to get in the planes on the ground from the bottom and upside down.
I kid
btw, fwiw, I'm with you, razzle dazzle is coool
and the inventor was a genius
*shakes head*
And here I am trying to make the Canadians look all cool and you go and blow it.
Indeed, dazzle rocked and the guy was a genius. Now if we could only get them to bring it back.
Really, secret, tsk, tsk, or maybe I just have better clearance than I thought, still I seem to remember it from public sources, or at least that's what I'm telling my lawyer,Hey, I thought that was supposed to be secret :nonono:
Of course it takes a few extra hours of training to get the pilots to stop trying to get in the planes on the ground from the bottom and upside down.
I kid
btw, fwiw, I'm with you, razzle dazzle is coool
And here I am trying to make the Canadians look all cool and you go and blow it.
Indeed, dazzle rocked and the guy was a genius. Now if we could only get them to bring it back.
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Interesting...
...of course I had a quick look for a visual, and then realized what would happen if there were one.
I stopped looking :smirk:
And the Monty Python skit "The Joke"* popped into my head, but visual instead of auditory. I got a giggle out of it and the possible ramifications spun off from there.
* aka the Killer Joke and the Funniest Joke in the World
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Easterner9504
SOC-13
Uni-Colors
The 3I recruits from across multi-cultural backgrounds. That means to a few certain cultures certain colors would be taboo. So it is likely there is no official uniform (work) and various colors can be issued to recruits. Assignments would need be Gerrymandered frequently and dress uniforms would be standardized but with a few color variations, probably organized at IN: by Divison, Ground Troops: by regiment. So if you mustered an AHL crew by division each would have unique colors. That way all could serve w/o risking Sepoy Mutiny over taboos.
Color taboos discussed often in EC Tubbs DUMAREST series. An Aliens hatred of wering red showed up in Mike Resnicks' TALES OF THE GALACTIC MIDWAY
I'm under the impression Scout service has no uniform nor would any member be caught dead wearing one.
EXAMPLES:
In Zulu War, Brit army officers wore red or blue as they wished.
AVG had no uniform, pilots wore what they brought and many had a uniform tailored up in Rangoon.
Few navies had Enlisted uniforms prior to mid-19thC and officers tailored uniforms were not uniform to one another, merely similar.
US Army in Indian Wars kept issuing either Civil War or lowest bidder items that wore out; so from 1866-83 mixed uni-parts and civilian clothes worn on campaign, uniformity slowly growing after '83.
The 3I recruits from across multi-cultural backgrounds. That means to a few certain cultures certain colors would be taboo. So it is likely there is no official uniform (work) and various colors can be issued to recruits. Assignments would need be Gerrymandered frequently and dress uniforms would be standardized but with a few color variations, probably organized at IN: by Divison, Ground Troops: by regiment. So if you mustered an AHL crew by division each would have unique colors. That way all could serve w/o risking Sepoy Mutiny over taboos.
Color taboos discussed often in EC Tubbs DUMAREST series. An Aliens hatred of wering red showed up in Mike Resnicks' TALES OF THE GALACTIC MIDWAY
I'm under the impression Scout service has no uniform nor would any member be caught dead wearing one.
EXAMPLES:
In Zulu War, Brit army officers wore red or blue as they wished.
AVG had no uniform, pilots wore what they brought and many had a uniform tailored up in Rangoon.
Few navies had Enlisted uniforms prior to mid-19thC and officers tailored uniforms were not uniform to one another, merely similar.
US Army in Indian Wars kept issuing either Civil War or lowest bidder items that wore out; so from 1866-83 mixed uni-parts and civilian clothes worn on campaign, uniformity slowly growing after '83.
I see the color issue being just one more thing a recruit would have to accept as part of Imperial culture. Cultural indoctrination would be a necessary part of military training to ensure loyalty of a recruit to the IN or IM, not his homeworld. If you join the Imperial military, you must comply with Imperial military protocol and regulations, forgoing your home-world's traditions. If you find the uniform's color offensive, there's probably other Imperial customs you would find even more repugnant.
Uniforms do this today and I would expect the human experience of donning one would still be significant even in the far future among our interstellar cousins. One isn't a Marine or a police officer until they put the uniform and insignia on for the first time.
As a side note: IMTU, the color of IN uniforms and even racing stripes on ships is blue. The Solies favor maroon, while the Zhodani prefer gold.
Uniforms do this today and I would expect the human experience of donning one would still be significant even in the far future among our interstellar cousins. One isn't a Marine or a police officer until they put the uniform and insignia on for the first time.
As a side note: IMTU, the color of IN uniforms and even racing stripes on ships is blue. The Solies favor maroon, while the Zhodani prefer gold.
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Easterner9504
SOC-13
And you reconcile that statement with this how?
EXAMPLES:
In Zulu War, Brit army officers wore red or blue as they wished.
AVG had no uniform, pilots wore what they brought and many had a uniform tailored up in Rangoon.
Few navies had Enlisted uniforms prior to mid-19thC and officers tailored uniforms were not uniform to one another, merely similar.
US Army in Indian Wars kept issuing either Civil War or lowest bidder items that wore out; so from 1866-83 mixed uni-parts and civilian clothes worn on campaign, uniformity slowly growing after '83.
The SS issued the fez to Balkan muslim units in two colors red/feldgrau to keep them happy.
Age of Enlightenmemt armies frequently had different uniforms per regiment in style occasionally in colors, some of which carried forward to the 20th century in both field and dress uniforms.
You will note all my examples are not from times known for "tolerance and diversity"
In modern times our military bends over backwards to accommodate religious needs of Muslim troops. They're in demand especially as translators.
Now to the Imperium. It is vast but it has no coercive powers over its citizens that current Earth governments use. The best example is that the Draft is voluntary, none serve unwillingly. So when wars and problems occur the Imperium needs bodies it needs a ready supply of them, so if a planet with a population of 10 billion won't wear green, that might be a problem for the army and marines recruiting drive. The imperium isn't going to write off 80-90% of the recruiting base on this world and a dozen others like it, they will accommodate it and come-up with something else. The Vilani ran a cookie cutter society, it was too fragile to withstand a big pressure, The 2nd Imp was (unintentionally) too freeform, make it up as you go along, it collapsed into anarchy. The 3rd Imp has no intention of following those 2 down the tubes. Hence it encourages wildcard, the "traveller" culture to keep on movin' cross-polinating the Imperium with fresh ideas, hires them for nasty odd jobs or tosses them on a prison planet to relieve them from the stress of petty larceny on occasion. Yet it embraces the slow change of the old 1st Impie that had no use for vagabond travellers spreading their non-conformist ways.
So why does no one agree on 3rd Impie uniform colors? They have multi versions, eliminating a potential source of nonsense before it ever happens.
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We don't agree because TPTB has not established canonical Imperial uniforms. Therefore, individual artists have been free to (and/or forced to) invent their own versions over the past 30 years, resulting in a hodge-podge of different uniforms. DGP did try, at least for marines, but their effort was subsequently ignored.
Hans
I've worn many uniforms in both the military and civilian sectors. The old adage of "the uniform makes the man" holds true. Uniforms not only identify you as part of a group to others but are used to draw you into an organization and bind you to it. With a number of endeavors, particularly the military, the uniform is something you earn the privelege of wearing only after dropping your preconceived notions and adopting theirs, meeting their standards. And this convention seems to carry over to most Earth cultures and with the Rule of Man, I assume the Imperium may still carry on similar military traditions.
Sometimes uniforms are very personal. A prime example is football fans who wear their team jerseys even when they are watching from home. What possible motivation is there to do this? Who are they wearing the uniform for? It makes them feel like they are part of the team.
I did not state that provincial or house troops could not or would not have uniform items that represent their heritage, cultural norms, etc. I just would expect the Imperium to be less concerned with maintaining non-Imperial cultural norms, wanting instead for their military personnel to identify with the crown and the Imperium as a whole rather than their own small part of it. I would even expect that different that the Imperium would allow their military to adopt ethnic or regional equipage as part of dress uniforms, similar to berets, kilts, or weapons like kukri.
I think this is a matter of perspective.
As Hans stated; there are as many differing versions of Imperial uniforms as there are contributing illustrators; don't base your argument on the changing tastes of artists.
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Easterner9504
SOC-13
Color
Ran, what color is the Imperial flag?
Ran, what color is the Imperial flag?
Well that would depend on what you consider canon. If you hold to MegaTrav (which I once owned and gave away), the flag of the Imperial throne is black with a yellow sunburst. But since this flag is not visible to all of the Imperium's citizens due to physical limitations (Eliyoh, IIRC), it was mandated the flag would not have any specific color scheme. Regardless, the throne's flag did not change, nor would I have expected it to.
This was a concession to a species joining the Imperium, in order to bring them into the fold. I'm sure being non-human, other concessions were made for them as well. But they would be minor compared to the amount of Imperial culture the Eliyoh would be expected to comply with. It was not up to them to pick and choose, it was the Empress'.
In the extreme, perhaps they don't even wear clothes, which makes the whole topic uniforms sort of pointless; not much is written about them so it's all speculation. Still, if they fought in the IN, they would fight under a yellow sunburst just as if they fought in the IA, it would be black. There were no such concessions in the Imperial military. Regardless, in both cases, I'm sure they would be required to wear some sort of uniform item to identify them as members of the forces and their rank therein.
Anyway, this is Traveller; read the books, use what you like, and have fun! Does it really matter what color the Imperium uses to cover it's able spacemen in?
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Easterner9504
SOC-13
Uni color
I claim victory for my hypothesis. The point is a multi-culture society makes such reasonable accommodation; homogenous societies as we have today don't need to do. Further multi-colors are merely an extension of US carrier crew practice applied to work/dress uni's.
Your point of no clothes culture is interesting. Droyne are frequently depicted in minimal/no clothes. Aliens of that physiology though would probably be assigned colored items. Unclothed human/mammalian culture would pose major problem. Folks from burka cultures would freak as would some from religious. That would be a major problem reconciling the unreconcileable. You've stumped me now!
I claim victory for my hypothesis. The point is a multi-culture society makes such reasonable accommodation; homogenous societies as we have today don't need to do. Further multi-colors are merely an extension of US carrier crew practice applied to work/dress uni's.
Your point of no clothes culture is interesting. Droyne are frequently depicted in minimal/no clothes. Aliens of that physiology though would probably be assigned colored items. Unclothed human/mammalian culture would pose major problem. Folks from burka cultures would freak as would some from religious. That would be a major problem reconciling the unreconcileable. You've stumped me now!
I'll admit from the get go that I'm an ex Territorial Army squaddie. Uniforms have three purposes.
1. To present a uniform (hence the name) appearance so as to properly identify the wearer as being in the military.
2. To protect the wearer from hazards in their work (in the form of additional specialised protective clothing and kit)
3. To assist the wearer in performing his/her tasks (i.e. camouflage clothing for field use)
With the above in mind, here are my thoughts.
Tradition. Naval uniforms from the wet navy on up will probably use a similar colour - even the Canadian Armed Forces naval units tend to use dark blue in their dress uniforms, remember, so I'd say Ultramarine Blue would be the standard colour.
I'm going to ignore dress and 'base' uniforms, and concentrate on ship uniforms.
Given recent trends in making working uniforms more utilitarian, they'd likely as not be festooned with pockets like American BDU trousers and shirts.
So, ship-boots (impact cushioning for zero-gee gravplate failures in a dark ballistic nylon-like material, possibly with Velcro or something that replaces Velcro for attachment point usage in zero-gee. Boot height would be say a couple of cm above the ankle to provide a measure of joint protection against accidental knocks and bumps.
Trousers (NO skirts - think what happens in zero-gee!) to possess elasticated hems to seal around the upper boot; trousers would possess self-sealing pockets on the thighs, backside, and hips. Leg and backside pockets would be of the blousing format.
Belt to be nylon, with outer-facing quick-attach/release fixings for fast attachment of tool/weapons pouches/holsters, etc.
Top. Similar to a polo shirt or tee-shirt, with upper-arm elasticated retention light-pen pockets, cloth insignia of branch and rank on both the upper arms (using Velcro-like attachments?), and a pair of non-blousing chest pockets.
Headgear: Utilitarian watchcap like affair, designed to help keep sweat and hair out of the way. Think of the headdress in the movie "Wing Commander".
Rank Insignia should be simple, logical, and plain, so as to be very easily understood in high-stress moments.
Eg:
E1 Thin broken (two part) Light Blue bar x 1
E2 Thin Light Blue bar x 1
E3 Thin Light Blue bar x 2
E4 Thick Light Blue Bar x 1
E5 Thick Light Blue Bar x 2
E6 Light Blue Square x 1
E7 Light Blue Square x 2
E8 Light Blue Triangle x 1
E9 Light Blue Triangle x 2
E10 Light Blue Triangle x 3
Officer rank insignia the same as enlisted, but the colour is gold, not light blue.
Trade would be signified by a colour patch below the rank insignia, following, for example (and ease of copying) the US Naval Carrier deck vest colour scheme.
Main more specific branch logos could be worn akin to the wings badges used by the US Air Force, but in cloth, not metal, and in light blue for enlisted ranks, gold for Officers. Said patch to bear the name and rank of the wearer, and be attached much like a velcro patch.
Thoughts?
1. To present a uniform (hence the name) appearance so as to properly identify the wearer as being in the military.
2. To protect the wearer from hazards in their work (in the form of additional specialised protective clothing and kit)
3. To assist the wearer in performing his/her tasks (i.e. camouflage clothing for field use)
With the above in mind, here are my thoughts.
Tradition. Naval uniforms from the wet navy on up will probably use a similar colour - even the Canadian Armed Forces naval units tend to use dark blue in their dress uniforms, remember, so I'd say Ultramarine Blue would be the standard colour.
I'm going to ignore dress and 'base' uniforms, and concentrate on ship uniforms.
Given recent trends in making working uniforms more utilitarian, they'd likely as not be festooned with pockets like American BDU trousers and shirts.
So, ship-boots (impact cushioning for zero-gee gravplate failures in a dark ballistic nylon-like material, possibly with Velcro or something that replaces Velcro for attachment point usage in zero-gee. Boot height would be say a couple of cm above the ankle to provide a measure of joint protection against accidental knocks and bumps.
Trousers (NO skirts - think what happens in zero-gee!) to possess elasticated hems to seal around the upper boot; trousers would possess self-sealing pockets on the thighs, backside, and hips. Leg and backside pockets would be of the blousing format.
Belt to be nylon, with outer-facing quick-attach/release fixings for fast attachment of tool/weapons pouches/holsters, etc.
Top. Similar to a polo shirt or tee-shirt, with upper-arm elasticated retention light-pen pockets, cloth insignia of branch and rank on both the upper arms (using Velcro-like attachments?), and a pair of non-blousing chest pockets.
Headgear: Utilitarian watchcap like affair, designed to help keep sweat and hair out of the way. Think of the headdress in the movie "Wing Commander".
Rank Insignia should be simple, logical, and plain, so as to be very easily understood in high-stress moments.
Eg:
E1 Thin broken (two part) Light Blue bar x 1
E2 Thin Light Blue bar x 1
E3 Thin Light Blue bar x 2
E4 Thick Light Blue Bar x 1
E5 Thick Light Blue Bar x 2
E6 Light Blue Square x 1
E7 Light Blue Square x 2
E8 Light Blue Triangle x 1
E9 Light Blue Triangle x 2
E10 Light Blue Triangle x 3
Officer rank insignia the same as enlisted, but the colour is gold, not light blue.
Trade would be signified by a colour patch below the rank insignia, following, for example (and ease of copying) the US Naval Carrier deck vest colour scheme.
Main more specific branch logos could be worn akin to the wings badges used by the US Air Force, but in cloth, not metal, and in light blue for enlisted ranks, gold for Officers. Said patch to bear the name and rank of the wearer, and be attached much like a velcro patch.
Thoughts?
