Odd starports

[atpollard]

It's inferred. Class A starport can build starships. Starships are built in a certain time as determined by hulls. It follows if you can't build a starship in that time frame you don't get a Class A rating. Note (iirc) that (somewhere it's mentioned, HG?) any world can build starships and spacecraft for it's own defense up to it's TL regardless of starport class. The starport class is for commercial purposes more than anything.

It may or may not be implied in LBB 2 (too etheral an issue to debate), but LBB5:High Guard states:

… A planetary navy may procure ships at any shipyard within the borders of its subsector; alternatively, a planetary navy may construct ships on it s planet, using local resources, even if a shipyard is not present.

Construction Times: Ships of 5,000 tons or less can be completed in 36 months or less by any competent shipyard. Ships over 5,000 tons require from 24 to 60 months to complete, based on conditions, volume of orders, and the degree of haste desired by the ordering government.

So building 1 scout in 35 months would meet the stated requirement.

Starport classes (IMHO) appear to be based first and foremost on what they can do. How soon the starport shipyard can get around to your repairs and how long those repairs will take is for the referee to decide based on his/her vision and campaign. ... The alternative, is that every class D starport may actually be Class A but too small to meet the ISS production criteria. That makes the ISS ratings virtually useless.

[EDIT: I just threw in the planetary navy part because you mentioned seeing it somewhere in HG and it was on pg 19.]

 

[savage]

starports grow or perish

Have to agree with Dan on that one.

Although, "not always commercial" starports are probably not uncommon. I can see corporations, system and the imperium navy doing their own thing to get the job done. And abandoning unsuccessful relationships as needed.

Here is a favorite example of a place I worked briefly. Nice colorful story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Beach_Airport

 

[atpollard]

Have to agree with Dan on that one.

Then I yield to the majority view and will reserve my more locally colorful starports for MTU.

So how do all those worlds with sub-million populations and class A starports build kilo-dton starships at break-neck speeds?

 

[far-trader]

Then I yield to the majority view and will reserve my more locally colorful starports for MTU.

So how do all those worlds with sub-million populations and class A starports build kilo-dton starships at break-neck speeds?

Those'd be the "odd starports" the thread is talking about

They can't, therefore something is screwy with the UPP, or one must 'create' an exceptional set of circumstances to explain the oddity...

 

[savage]

Those'd be the "odd starports" the thread is talking about

They can't, therefore something is screwy with the UWP, or one must 'create' an exceptional set of circumstances to explain the oddity...

Agreed.

When we're looking at a UWP I do think there is some variation. The starport field would either be the cumulation of the worlds capacity or a prime subsector starport. IMTU I noted a rating for each port on the planet but only report the highest port.

 

[atpollard]

or one must 'create' an exceptional set of circumstances to explain the oddity...

I tried that, it's what you'all are correcting me on.

 

[far-trader]

I tried that, it's what you'all are correcting me on.

Didn't mean to, exactly To (attempt) clarify, your example above of the starport that doesn't quite measure up may be listed as a Class A but in fact is not. Or possibly the other way around, listed as a Class D but marginally a Class A. Both can be fun...

The PCs land at the Class A starport and head over to book much needed and overdue annual maintenance and repairs, and are told sorry, we're in the middle of building a Cutter for a client, it'll be at least 6 months before we can get to you. Dang!

The PCs are screwed, the ship took major damage running from pirates in the last system and a hasty jump has them setting down at a Class D starport in a backwater system. As they settle on the tarmac the power plant whines and blows a flimmerjammer, it's toast and they are stuck. Or are they? Across the field they can see crews finishing work on a small starship! Hope springs eternal and upon inquiring they find that yes the starport can do the repairs needed. Hurrah!

 

[rancke]

It may or may not be implied in LBB 2 (too etheral an issue to debate), but LBB5:High Guard states:

"… A planetary navy may procure ships at any shipyard within the borders of its subsector; alternatively, a planetary navy may construct ships on it s planet, using local resources, even if a shipyard is not present."

So what's the difference between a world with a Class A starport where the government can get ships built and a world with a Class E starport where the government can get ships built? It's obviously not that one has a shipyard and the other one hasn't.

"Construction Times: Ships of 5,000 tons or less can be completed in 36 months or less by any competent shipyard. Ships over 5,000 tons require from 24 to 60 months to complete, based on conditions, volume of orders, and the degree of haste desired by the ordering government."

So building 1 scout in 35 months would meet the stated requirement.

Requirement for what?

Starport classes (IMHO) appear to be based first and foremost on what they can do.

Yes indeed. What they can do for a civilian shipowner.

How soon the starport shipyard can get around to your repairs and how long those repairs will take is for the referee to decide based on his/her vision and campaign. ... The alternative, is that every class D starport may actually be Class A but too small to meet the ISS production criteria. That makes the ISS ratings virtually useless.

No, they're not. If I was a starship captain in need of annual maintenance, I'd want to know if the shipyards at Argelbargle will perform it for me or not. Whether they're capable of doing it but won't or can't do it in the first place is of much less interest to me.

I just threw in the planetary navy part because you mentioned seeing it somewhere in HG and it was on pg 19.

And thank you for that. That rule is the lynchpin of my argument, because it shows that starport rating is not related to capability but to willingness to use that capability.


Hans

 

[atpollard]

The PCs land at the Class A starport and head over to book much needed and overdue annual maintenance and repairs, and are told sorry, we're in the middle of building a Cutter for a client, it'll be at least 6 months before we can get to you. Dang!

That could happen anywhere. You land at a TL 15, Pop A world with a class A starport ...

Q. "Do you build and repair starships?"
A. "Sure do, over 26,000 per year."
Q. "Great, how soon can you get to the annual maintainence on ours?
A. "Just sign right here and you are 6,456 on the que. That'll put you just a hair over 3 months to delivery, Guaranteed!"

 

[skyth]

A lot of the Class A starports with low-pop worlds could be explained as having a lot of robot (With High autonomous programming) help around. (Plus being Mega-corp owned and used as waystations.

 

[atpollard]

Requirement for what?

If "Ships of 5,000 tons or less can be completed in 36 months or less by any competent shipyard" and I can build a Type S in 35 months, then I am a "competant shipyard".
May I have my Class A certification now, I want to hang it on the office wall.

No, they're not. If I was a starship captain in need of annual maintenance, I'd want to know if the shipyards at Argelbargle will perform it for me or not. Whether they're capable of doing it but won't or can't do it in the first place is of much less interest to me.

... and if the "shipyards at Argelbargle" require 2 years to build a scout, but can get you in for annual maintainence right away and have it done in 2 weeks, do you still care?

Per the CT rules, a 100 ton hull requires 9-10 months (39 to 43 weeks) to build and 2 weeks to perform annual maintainence (at a class A starport). This implies maintainence requires about 1/20 the workforce of construction. For the sake of argument, assume that it takes 100 men to build a 100 ton starship in 10 months and 5 men to perform annual maintainence on that ship in 2 weeks. A shipyard with 50 men could build that 100 ton starship in 20 months, or those same 50 men could perform annual overhauls on up to 1000 tons of ship in 2 weeks.

I would call this a small class A starport and you would call it class C or D.

 

[rancke]

That could happen anywhere. You land at a TL 15, Pop A world with a class A starport ...

Q. "Do you build and repair starships?"
A. "Sure do, over 26,000 per year."
Q. "Great, how soon can you get to the annual maintainence on ours?
A. "Just sign right here and you are 6,456 on the que. That'll put you just a hair over 3 months to delivery, Guaranteed!"

That puts us into quite a different question, namely standard business practices. What are they? A free trader that jumps into a randomly selected system for its annual maintenance is probably going to wait weeks or months for a spot to open up (even though the rules make absolutely no mention of that possibility). Indeed, were I a free trader, I'd make an appointment several months in advance, then make very sure I was present on the sheduled day. But when Tukera approaches Clan Severn about the maintenance needs of its fleets of ships, I suspect its going to require guarantees and penalty clauses. A ship stuck in a shipyard is not making money, and the shipyard needs it to make money (at one remove) just as much as the owner does. So it'll be "Crown of Regina will arrive between 261-1105 and 266-1105 and will have its maintenance done within 10 business days of arrival. Price: So-and-so-much, penalty for delayed completion so-and-so-much per day. Arrow of Aramis will arrive between 275-1105 and 280-1105..."

And if Clan Severn can't guarantee timely service, maybe Ancker Shipyards can.


Hans

 

[rancke]

If "Ships of 5,000 tons or less can be completed in 36 months or less by any competent shipyard" and I can build a Type S in 35 months, then I am a "competant shipyard".
May I have my Class A certification now, I want to hang it on the office wall.

Where does it say that having a competent shipyard gives a starport a class A rating? Those shipyards that builds starships for governments of worlds with class B, C, D, and E starports are presumably just as capable. They just don't provide the requisite service for civilian shipping.

... and if the "shipyards at Argelbargle" require 2 years to build a scout, but can get you in for annual maintainence right away and have it done in 2 weeks, do you still care?

Not really, no. But apparently the Scouts do.


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

It comes from the suggestion that one might somehow explain an implausible UWP by assuming that it hasn't been updated since the publication of the Second Survey in 1065.

Hans,

But I didn't assume it hasn't been updated since the Second Survey. I wrote; Couldn't an UWP have been plausible during the Second Survey and then updated into implausibility? the first post and then gave a somewhat detailed example of the same in the next post.

Arglebargle-IX's port was wholly plausible in 1065, officially upgraded but actually implausible in 1114, then officially downgraded and back to plausible in 1115. For one brief shining moment, it was an odd starport and that status needn't have lasted for lengthy periods of time either.

I'll be the first to admit that this "excuse" cannot be used repeatedly in the OTU, but a GM can use it as needed in their TU and that's what this thread is really about.

How is that implausible? Does Argelbargle have too few people to maintain and run a Class C starport?

I deliberately left that vague. The GM can choose labor troubles, incompetent management, or other more sinister reasons for the problem.

You seem bent on proving that Argelbargle's UWP can be wrong, something I have tried to explain that I don't deny (Marc Miller, now... :devil.

Not exactly. I showed how Arglebargle-IX's UWP could be wrong for 400 days. It's an IMTU explanation and not an OTU correction.

Sadly, almost any starport rating we want to dispute (in the Spinward Marches, at least) remains the same from (at least) 1105 to (at least) 1117. Many of them remain the same through everything the Rebellion, Hard Times, and Virus throws at the Domain of Deneb up until 1202.

I'm not talking about the OTU specifically. I'm not interested in "correcting" or "explaining" UWPs wholesale. I suggesting how a GM can explain a single odd starport rating for their personal TU and then spin adventures out of that explanation.

I'm not fixing mistakes produced by the OTU's sysgen, I'm trying to make adventure gold out of OTU dross instead.

On to the topic this thread has happily drifted towards and one we discussed only last year...

I cannot agree more strongly with the position that you and Dan hold regarding starport ratings. Class A and Class B ratings have to mean something if they're going to mean anything. I will point out, however, that the IISS has all of six ratings with which to categorize every starport in Chartered Space. That cannot help but make for a lot of variation within each category.

A Class A port must be able to build starships and a Class B port must be able to overhaul starships, but that doesn't mean that any given Class A can build any given starship starship at any given time or that any given Class B can overhaul any given starhips at any given time. Simply put, "can" and "does" does not equate "all" and "every".

I know swaths of TCS have been decanonized for use in the OTU, but the yards rates tied to population have not been. This means that starports will vary by capacity due to population within a given class rating.


Regards,
Bill

 

[far-trader]

Just a quick note on something that keeps coming up. Wish I could recall the source, if I didn't make it up by filling in holes

While the IISS does the Grand Survey every so often, that is not what the UWP is (at least imo and imtu). The UWP and some brief notes are a part of The Traveller's Guide (that name I did make up*) put out by TAS for it's members, infrequently (depending on reports) updated but more often than the Grand Survey data it is based on so changes can and do happen (see various TAS News blurbs for new Amber Zone warnings and such).

* and oh so original Just saying don't bother googling or searching your books, I doubt it's there

Non-TAS members often have access to the same Traveller's Guide, though not as up to date. Either through an old copy or the public data terminals and ship board Library programs. For the most up to date data on any world just drop in at the nearest TAS facility and present a valid member card.

It doesn't explain all the issues but you can sometimes play the "Yes, the Library Data says this starport is Class A." looks across the dusty, empty, landing field, tumbleweeds blowing by, "Of course it was last updated when the ship was new, umm, 20 years ago." A procession of local army tanks pull up and take aim at the ship "And it seems there has been a coup recently and the current government is not so friendly. I bet TAS has this listed as an Amber Zone now."

So, while the UWP is (meta-game) a springboard for the ref to detail the world, the UWP is (in game) a short mention in a travel guide aimed at condensing the info for tourists, travellers, and free-traders (MegaCorps will have their own survey teams and up to date data independent of TAS).

 

[rancke]

I'm not talking about the OTU specifically. I'm not interested in "correcting" or "explaining" UWPs wholesale. I suggesting how a GM can explain a single odd starport rating for their personal TU and then spin adventures out of that explanation.

Oh well, in that case I agree with everything you said. I'm just not used to thinking of "It's wrong" as an explanation. To me it's what you say when you can't think of an explanation.


Hans

 

[atpollard]

Where does it say that having a competent shipyard gives a starport a class A rating? Those shipyards that builds starships for governments of worlds with class B, C, D, and E starports are presumably just as capable. They just don't provide the requisite service for civilian shipping.

This question seems a little baiting, but I'll answer anyway:

In the part of the rules where it defines a Class A starport as able to build starships and in the part of the rules where it says that a shipyard is able to build 5000 tons of starship or less in 36 months or less. If a 'starport' has a 'shipyard' that is able to build 'starships', then that (by definition) is a class A starport.

[... and before you ask WHERE, both rules sections were already quoted earlier.]

 

[atpollard]

I know swaths of TCS have been decanonized for use in the OTU, but the yards rates tied to population have not been. This means that starports will vary by capacity due to population within a given class rating.

Just to check that I am reading the formula correct, per TCS a shipyard is able to 'work on' about 1 ton of ship per 1000 people (using 1.0 for the Government Modifier). This would indicate that a population of roughly 100,000 (pop 5) is needed to build a 100 ton ship in 40 weeks.

Since starships must be at least 100 tons, is it fair to say that any Class A starport on a world below pop 5 is potentially "problematic"?

 

[rancke]

This question seems a little baiting, but I'll answer anyway:

In the part of the rules where it defines a Class A starport as able to build starships and in the part of the rules where it says that a shipyard is able to build 5000 tons of starship or less in 36 months or less. If a 'starport' has a 'shipyard' that is able to build 'starships', then that (by definition) is a class A starport.

[... and before you ask WHERE, both rules sections were already quoted earlier.]

Those rules sections don't say that having a shipyard makes it a class A starport. They say that a Class A starport has a shipyard. There's a difference, you know. And if you'll pardon me for sounding just a little exasperated, that's the point I've made three times already!

If what you said was true, governments would not be able to build starships on worlds with class B-E starports. But HG clearly and specifically states that they can. You even quoted that yourself!

So, once again, I ask:

"So what's the difference between a world with a Class A starport where the government can get ships built and a world with a Class E starport where the government can get ships built? It's obviously not that one has a shipyard and the other one hasn't."​

Hans

 

[Max]

What's the limit hans, i've never come close to it. Depending on the rest of the UWP I've used a variety, examples based on government code:

1. BigNastyCo does not like independant traders not owned by BNC and forces all non-BNC ships to use what can only be generously called a starport.

3. foreigners have ideas which might upset things, foreigners are only allowed into the foreign ghetto where they only meet with a limited number of persons who cna be trusted not to be swayed by foreign ideas.

5. Starport services are low status, anyone working for the starport is about the level of dung-collector on the social status and advancement scale. Money, equipment and motivated personnel are all lacking.

7. No government will leave as important an item as a quality starport undestroyed in the hands of any other government. Even upgrading to type C would be reason to start a war or destroy the facility before it could go online.

9. Welcome to the Department of Space Vehicles (DSV), you're call about the " quality of the spaceport " is important to us. Please hold the line until an operator can get to you. Your call is " number 2,342,837,659 " and has an estimated wait time of " 12 years, 4 months, 3 days, 14 hours and 27 minutes " . Your call is important to us, please do not hang up and hold the line until an operator can get to you. Frivolous use of an official line is a crime punishable by up to 5 years imprisonment and failure to remain on the line will taken as evidence of frivolous use. Thank you for remaining on the line, you're call call is now number " 2,242,837, 658 "...


B. Through independence is strength. Reliance on foreigners weakens us. We as a people must be strong and control the amount of foreign influences.

D. The faithful have no need of luxury and it would be a waste to expend resources on the unfaithful.

F. There is no starport, we do not allow contact with offworlders. Please leave this system immediately. .... What are you doing on this channel, switch over to the private channel immediately and I hope you brought some Denebian Brandy. Remember to look out for the volcano when you come in, it's been a little active recently.



All it takes is a little imagination and an understanding that the UWP code starport is the one which is most important in terms of interstellar trade (where the starships go) instead of the biggest and best. It makes little difference to a traveler if there is a facility which would be rated AAA++++ for locals while they're forced to land in Farmer Brown's 3rd best cow pasture (and pay1000CR !!!) because when they built the starport Farmer Brown's great 4th grandfather convinced his legislator to write a law requiring interstellar traffic to use it's traditional landing site.