Thunderbolt
SOC-12
I think I am with Icosahedron on this, unless you are some kind of one man Kimball Kinnison infiltration team sitting on an asteroid for a week, getting in and out of a suit will become as routine as taking a tea break.
Skin tight vacc suits, really?
- Thread starter Thunderbolt
- Start date
Icosahedron,
Let's see... off the top of my pointy head... belters, yard workers, riggers, high port freight handlers, naval crews, scout crews, star mercs, PROFOR troopers, crews of emergency response vehicles, various professions on worlds/moons with exotic or no atmospheres, shall I go on?
Not every job can be done from inside a dome or pressurized vehicle cabin. (Although MTU makes great use of telepresence.) There will still be jobs and professions in which people will have to wear vacc suits, p-suits, or something similar for long periods.
For the crew of the Running Boil, the newlyweds heading for McIntyre and the beautiful twin moons of Christine, and that grad student performing a semester's worth of data collection at that mining facility on that outer system moon sure.
There still will be people who must wear suits for extended periods and jobs that require suits be worn for extended periods and the players may find themselves those people doing those jobs.
Regards,
Bill
G'day All
I have yet to track down a copy of Grand Survey, could you give an exec summary of the progression?
Skin-suits would have to be restrictive yet flexible, same as a 'flight-sock' or other compressive bandage. The density of the material would depend on the atmos. cycle (see SS2 Atmosphere), personally at TL8 I'd want a carbon-nano weave with gold thread for rad/thermal shielding, coolant gel panels in addition to my belt loop mag-plasma shield.
DreamPod9's Jovean Chronicles has some very nice suit designs.
DX
I have yet to track down a copy of Grand Survey, could you give an exec summary of the progression?
Skin-suits would have to be restrictive yet flexible, same as a 'flight-sock' or other compressive bandage. The density of the material would depend on the atmos. cycle (see SS2 Atmosphere), personally at TL8 I'd want a carbon-nano weave with gold thread for rad/thermal shielding, coolant gel panels in addition to my belt loop mag-plasma shield.
DreamPod9's Jovean Chronicles has some very nice suit designs.
DX
Is this the time to mention one of my taglines?
On high-tech medicine:
Ethan Henry: "I feel fairly confident that even by TL 15 there won't be a pill to prevent you from having to deficate and such. Anally-inserted fusion incinerators, maybe, but you can't do everything with a pill."
Loren K. Wiseman: "There are certain words that should never appear in the same sentence. "Anally-inserted" and "fusion incinerators" are one set. "Sexually transmitted" and "flesh-eating bacteria" are another.
;-)
On high-tech medicine:
Ethan Henry: "I feel fairly confident that even by TL 15 there won't be a pill to prevent you from having to deficate and such. Anally-inserted fusion incinerators, maybe, but you can't do everything with a pill."
Loren K. Wiseman: "There are certain words that should never appear in the same sentence. "Anally-inserted" and "fusion incinerators" are one set. "Sexually transmitted" and "flesh-eating bacteria" are another.
;-)
I think both Bill (whipsnade) and Icosahedron are correct, to a degree.
My take is that since many, if not most characters have a somewhat military orientation, and since the military vacc suit almost certainly provides for both kinds of waste disposal/diversion, most player characters would have a suit that does both.
I think for the urine side, even an emergency/econo-suit would have like a super-wicking, superabsorbent "Depends" built into it, and might even have some mechanism to transfer that liquid very slowly into the surroundings (a feature that can be turned on and off, perhaps).
My take is that since many, if not most characters have a somewhat military orientation, and since the military vacc suit almost certainly provides for both kinds of waste disposal/diversion, most player characters would have a suit that does both.
I think for the urine side, even an emergency/econo-suit would have like a super-wicking, superabsorbent "Depends" built into it, and might even have some mechanism to transfer that liquid very slowly into the surroundings (a feature that can be turned on and off, perhaps).
Peter Schutze
SOC-12
sounds like you guys are arguing over 3 related but different items
1) skinsuit or "ship dress" only really exposed to vacc for short term even in emergencies etc .... common underdress in low pressure habitats
2) vaccsuit or "work dress" that looks more like the apollo suits .... 3-4 hours use is common. I'd expect this to go over the skinsuit
3) battledress or civilian "hardsuits" armoured harsh environment suits that keep you alive for days at a time. proper military battledress is probably equally suitable for any environment while civilian versions would be design - tailored more for specific environments.
1) skinsuit or "ship dress" only really exposed to vacc for short term even in emergencies etc .... common underdress in low pressure habitats
2) vaccsuit or "work dress" that looks more like the apollo suits .... 3-4 hours use is common. I'd expect this to go over the skinsuit
3) battledress or civilian "hardsuits" armoured harsh environment suits that keep you alive for days at a time. proper military battledress is probably equally suitable for any environment while civilian versions would be design - tailored more for specific environments.
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
Most of which we have today:
yard workers, riggers, freight handlers, naval crews, firefighters, paramedics...
They all go to the nearest head and unzip their worksuits. They don't tend to wear diapers. (EDIT: just googled the spelling of your American terminology.
)True, I never suggested otherwise. But how common are the 'survival suits' compared with the 'skinny suits'? It is the skinny suits we're discussing here, and the fact that (IMHO) as tech levels progress, more and more jobs will be able to be performed in a skinny suit.
Yep, good summary. I'm guessing that from my POV both 1 and 2 will be types of skinny suits and not require plumbing (3-4 hrs, why bother?) whilst from Bill's POV only 1 will be a skinny suit and 2 and 3 will both require plumbing.
I'd suggest that my vision is a higher tech vision than Bill's, that's all. At TL 8/9 I'd agree with him; at TL14/15 we differ.
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Put me in the "3-4 hours and easy to don/doff" will generally not require plumbing.
The equivalent is cold weather gear for -10° to -30° C (in short, Fairbanks mid-winters). Guys working outside for periods of up to 8 hours are in full body coverage, and generally, do not have depends or equivalent on. If they absolutely can't hold it, they go inside, unzip 2-3 zippers, use the commode, wash up, zip up, and go back outside.
The equivalent is cold weather gear for -10° to -30° C (in short, Fairbanks mid-winters). Guys working outside for periods of up to 8 hours are in full body coverage, and generally, do not have depends or equivalent on. If they absolutely can't hold it, they go inside, unzip 2-3 zippers, use the commode, wash up, zip up, and go back outside.
Gents,
Having working in and around heavy industrial sites for the last thirty years or so and having worn all sorts of protective clothing ranging from anti-Cs to cold weather clothing to fully pressurized suits complete with breathing air and cooling lines, let's just say I'm having some problem envisioning fully pressurized, fully heated, readily available porta-potties wherever and whenever a vacc-suited worker needs them.
Hell, even the engine rooms aboard my last ship lacked commodes and we weren't worried about maintaining an atmosphere. During general quarters we had to put an empty resin can in the escape trunk, line it with a garbage bag, and place a roll of toilet tissue next to it and that was aboard a ship designed in the 70s.
Some roustabout on the North Slope rig can waddle to a nearby porta-pottie much easier than a vacc-suited strip miner on an airless moon can pop into an airlock, wait for it to cycle, and begin to work all the zippers.
As I've written before, I don't see this being a problem with "casual" vacc-suit wearers, but there are professions for which the issue is rather serious. For instance, I can see belters paying close attention to their diets while out prospecting.
Maybe it's because I recently re-read Laporte's History of Sh*t that I'm hung up on this topic. Then again it may be the fact that I'm anal retentive.
Regards,
Bill
Having working in and around heavy industrial sites for the last thirty years or so and having worn all sorts of protective clothing ranging from anti-Cs to cold weather clothing to fully pressurized suits complete with breathing air and cooling lines, let's just say I'm having some problem envisioning fully pressurized, fully heated, readily available porta-potties wherever and whenever a vacc-suited worker needs them.
Hell, even the engine rooms aboard my last ship lacked commodes and we weren't worried about maintaining an atmosphere. During general quarters we had to put an empty resin can in the escape trunk, line it with a garbage bag, and place a roll of toilet tissue next to it and that was aboard a ship designed in the 70s.
Some roustabout on the North Slope rig can waddle to a nearby porta-pottie much easier than a vacc-suited strip miner on an airless moon can pop into an airlock, wait for it to cycle, and begin to work all the zippers.
As I've written before, I don't see this being a problem with "casual" vacc-suit wearers, but there are professions for which the issue is rather serious. For instance, I can see belters paying close attention to their diets while out prospecting.
Maybe it's because I recently re-read Laporte's History of Sh*t that I'm hung up on this topic. Then again it may be the fact that I'm anal retentive.
Regards,
Bill
It is not uncommon for north slope workers to only go to the restroom on lunch break.
NASA's 6-10 hours in-suit is NOT a normative work pattern. On the other hand, I routinely go 8 hours without using the restroom and without dehydration.
The commercial divers I've known all make it quite clear that the last thing they do before suiting is use the restroom. They have a semi-sealing urine collection container in the decompression tank. (Same kind used in aircraft...) Those guys all have a pretty regular pattern for defacation... Ron complained about it... every morning, about 15 min after breakfast. He commented that the guys were about evenly split between AM and PM. (Ron does underwater welding inspections and underwater welding. 5-6 hours wet, and up to twice as much decompressing.)
NASA's 6-10 hours in-suit is NOT a normative work pattern. On the other hand, I routinely go 8 hours without using the restroom and without dehydration.
The commercial divers I've known all make it quite clear that the last thing they do before suiting is use the restroom. They have a semi-sealing urine collection container in the decompression tank. (Same kind used in aircraft...) Those guys all have a pretty regular pattern for defacation... Ron complained about it... every morning, about 15 min after breakfast. He commented that the guys were about evenly split between AM and PM. (Ron does underwater welding inspections and underwater welding. 5-6 hours wet, and up to twice as much decompressing.)
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
Equally, I'm finding it difficult to picture a situation in which a safe environment with a fresher would be further away than 'holding time', without said worker being required on other grounds to wear a 'survival suit'. Especially since, in Traveller (which we're discussing here) you can probably get a small vehicle (porta-potty) with sealed environment and life support for less than the cost of a vacc suit.
That wouldn't be military, by any chance?
Will they still be built that way in AD 5370?
Hopefully the worker can judge his/her needs sufficiently not to be phased by the delay of a cycling airlock and a couple of zippers.
As I've written before, I don't see this being a problem with "casual" vacc-suit wearers, but there are professions for which the issue is rather serious. For instance, I can see belters paying close attention to their diets while out prospecting.
Maybe it's because I recently re-read Laporte's History of Sh*t that I'm hung up on this topic. Then again it may be the fact that I'm anal retentive.
Regards,
Bill
Some workers will always need special suits for their job and Belters may be one of the special cases, but I'd replace 'casual' with 'routine'. I think skinny suits without plumbing would suffice for most routine repair, maintenance and construction tasks (eg EVA on a ship) and many surface exploration tasks of up to half-day duration.
Couldn't resist a couple of little jokes there, but I think we are in agreement for the most part, Bill, we just have different TUs with different environments and we draw the line between 'skinnies' and 'fatties' in a different place. MTU is probably a bit more 'operatic' than yours. Everyone else's MMV.
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Gents,
Having working in and around heavy industrial sites for the last thirty years or so and having worn all sorts of protective clothing ranging from anti-Cs to cold weather clothing to fully pressurized suits complete with breathing air and cooling lines, let's just say I'm having some problem envisioning fully pressurized, fully heated, readily available porta-potties wherever and whenever a vacc-suited worker needs them.
<snip>
Maybe it's because I recently re-read Laporte's History of Sh*t that I'm hung up on this topic. Then again it may be the fact that I'm anal retentive.
Regards,
Bill
I don't think you sound constipated, Bill. In fact, you sound like a regular guy.
History of Sh*t, huh? Bathroom reading material?
Let's review the multiple functions of a space suit assembly:
1) pressure against skin.
2) allow movement.
3) provide atmosphere for breathing
4) (semi-optional) regulate temperature
5) (semi-optional) protect from hazards in the workspace
6) (semi-optional) provide communications
7) (optional) provide in flight relief
8) (optional) provide hydration
9) (optional) provide nutrition
10) (optional) provide tool stowage
11) (optional) provide tie-down anchorage.
12) (optional) thrust agency
1 & 2 are in fact at odds with each other. Exhalation requires pressure on the ribs. Skin exposure to hard vacuum is a hazard, but not actually lethal (see also records of projects Gemini and Soyuz), though it causes mild bruising and much swelling. Chest exposure to vacuum makes breathing mechanically difficult.
Having air to breathe is a prerequisite for any useful suit time. 3-4 minutes, tops, without it in vacuum, and probable blood froth if lungs exposed to vacuum. In a sealed bowl helmet, without supplemental O2, maybe twice that. a 1m rescue ball, not long either... maybe an hour or two while resting.
Most solutions for breathing also protect the eyes, but hey, just to be clear, eye exposure to vacuum can damage the eye, and or result in blindness, by vacuum dessication.
once you cover those bases, everything else is not absolutely requisite.
Thermal regulation is useful, especially in vacuum. Either bake or broil, generally nothing in between. unbreathably thin atmospheres, however, may provide enough heat to skip it for short duration use.
Protection from cuts, micrometeoroids, and radiation are important for all but the shorted duration uses. This can be a separate overgament, however.
Communications is required if you are not working alone. My players often forget that. On Mars, you can shout, and maybe you'll be heard by the guy next to you. In vacuum, you'll need to shout while in helmet to helmet contact (due to LS noise). Yep, commo system is good.
Then we move on to less critical stuff. In flight relief, for trained personnel in non-emergent situations is not essential until 4+ hours, maybe even 8+, if the person is used to such deprivations of restroom access.
Hydration is a useful boon for anything over 2 hours, almost essential at 6+ or if doing any sustained heavy labor. Nice to have, not quite requisite but VERY comforting for longer durations, and essential to long term health.
Nutrition is another "not essential but really nice"... most people can comfortably go 4 hours between meals. Some can go 8 functional hours, but not many. So probably the break point is about 4-6 hours.
Tool stowage: now we are in the realm of utility. If you are going to be WORKING in a suit, it's nice to have spots to secure tools. On the ground, we use pockets, lanyards, clips and holsters. In space, much the same. Clips become more common, and pockets less so. The old standby "toolbox, man portable" is less an option in microgravity, and still needs to be secured in a useful manner.... either to the user or the workspace.
Tie down anchorage. Mostly for micrograv. Don't want to accidentally go flying off, now, do we?
Thrust agency: some way of moving without contact with another object. Only useful in microgravity. If you have one of these, a tie-down might not be needed... but it would still be a really smart idea.
We've beaten in flight relief to a lumpy pulp... how about the rest?
1) pressure against skin.
2) allow movement.
3) provide atmosphere for breathing
4) (semi-optional) regulate temperature
5) (semi-optional) protect from hazards in the workspace
6) (semi-optional) provide communications
7) (optional) provide in flight relief
8) (optional) provide hydration
9) (optional) provide nutrition
10) (optional) provide tool stowage
11) (optional) provide tie-down anchorage.
12) (optional) thrust agency
1 & 2 are in fact at odds with each other. Exhalation requires pressure on the ribs. Skin exposure to hard vacuum is a hazard, but not actually lethal (see also records of projects Gemini and Soyuz), though it causes mild bruising and much swelling. Chest exposure to vacuum makes breathing mechanically difficult.
Having air to breathe is a prerequisite for any useful suit time. 3-4 minutes, tops, without it in vacuum, and probable blood froth if lungs exposed to vacuum. In a sealed bowl helmet, without supplemental O2, maybe twice that. a 1m rescue ball, not long either... maybe an hour or two while resting.
Most solutions for breathing also protect the eyes, but hey, just to be clear, eye exposure to vacuum can damage the eye, and or result in blindness, by vacuum dessication.
once you cover those bases, everything else is not absolutely requisite.
Thermal regulation is useful, especially in vacuum. Either bake or broil, generally nothing in between. unbreathably thin atmospheres, however, may provide enough heat to skip it for short duration use.
Protection from cuts, micrometeoroids, and radiation are important for all but the shorted duration uses. This can be a separate overgament, however.
Communications is required if you are not working alone. My players often forget that. On Mars, you can shout, and maybe you'll be heard by the guy next to you. In vacuum, you'll need to shout while in helmet to helmet contact (due to LS noise). Yep, commo system is good.
Then we move on to less critical stuff. In flight relief, for trained personnel in non-emergent situations is not essential until 4+ hours, maybe even 8+, if the person is used to such deprivations of restroom access.
Hydration is a useful boon for anything over 2 hours, almost essential at 6+ or if doing any sustained heavy labor. Nice to have, not quite requisite but VERY comforting for longer durations, and essential to long term health.
Nutrition is another "not essential but really nice"... most people can comfortably go 4 hours between meals. Some can go 8 functional hours, but not many. So probably the break point is about 4-6 hours.
Tool stowage: now we are in the realm of utility. If you are going to be WORKING in a suit, it's nice to have spots to secure tools. On the ground, we use pockets, lanyards, clips and holsters. In space, much the same. Clips become more common, and pockets less so. The old standby "toolbox, man portable" is less an option in microgravity, and still needs to be secured in a useful manner.... either to the user or the workspace.
Tie down anchorage. Mostly for micrograv. Don't want to accidentally go flying off, now, do we?
Thrust agency: some way of moving without contact with another object. Only useful in microgravity. If you have one of these, a tie-down might not be needed... but it would still be a really smart idea.
We've beaten in flight relief to a lumpy pulp... how about the rest?
saundby
SOC-14 1K
A Topic Ripe for Discussion...
Thermal management should be bumped up a notch IMO. It's critical over periods of minutes. 5-30 minutes until incapacitation, 15-120 minutes until death, depending on conditions. Both as a result of the environment and those of the suit itself.
Talked to a buddy from Hamilton Sundstrand for a bit and got to chitchat some.
The biggest problem with waste of either type is the fluid. It likes to get where it's not wanted. The hysorb nappys pretty well take care of that for both solid and liquid, with the longjohns and the neck dam as backups. Solid requires a more complicated cleanup process than liquid, but it's not a big deal. The fear is that a standard water-bead spongebath won't be good enough and a shower will be required. The ISS shower is seriously disliked. You have to wear a mask while in it to avoid drowning, then use an aspiration line to clean up the water that didn't get drawn down the drain afterward.
EVA suits (as opposed to the simpler entry suits) have "catch tanks", but many users of both sexes prefer using nappies. Diet control is part of the process (there's a reason launch day breakfast is traditionally steak and eggs), and a range of drugs is available to restrict or encourage intestinal activities at the appropriate times. This is part of why there are rest days with two teams on and off. Beside physical fatigue there's dealing with metabolism on off days.
The expectation is that bowel movements can be avoided in-suit, but it's just an inconvenience if it can't be helped.
Thermal management should be bumped up a notch IMO. It's critical over periods of minutes. 5-30 minutes until incapacitation, 15-120 minutes until death, depending on conditions. Both as a result of the environment and those of the suit itself.
Talked to a buddy from Hamilton Sundstrand for a bit and got to chitchat some.
The biggest problem with waste of either type is the fluid. It likes to get where it's not wanted. The hysorb nappys pretty well take care of that for both solid and liquid, with the longjohns and the neck dam as backups. Solid requires a more complicated cleanup process than liquid, but it's not a big deal. The fear is that a standard water-bead spongebath won't be good enough and a shower will be required. The ISS shower is seriously disliked. You have to wear a mask while in it to avoid drowning, then use an aspiration line to clean up the water that didn't get drawn down the drain afterward.
EVA suits (as opposed to the simpler entry suits) have "catch tanks", but many users of both sexes prefer using nappies. Diet control is part of the process (there's a reason launch day breakfast is traditionally steak and eggs), and a range of drugs is available to restrict or encourage intestinal activities at the appropriate times. This is part of why there are rest days with two teams on and off. Beside physical fatigue there's dealing with metabolism on off days.
The expectation is that bowel movements can be avoided in-suit, but it's just an inconvenience if it can't be helped.
I just want to say that this is probably one of the few places where industrial defecation is not only discussed, but the discussion is enlightening and reasonably entertaining at the same time.
Me? I'm voting for all "professional" grade suits to have nice, comfortable peristaltic bioplastic plumbing fixtures and a few liters worth of bagged waste storage. If I can swallow all jumps taking a week I think folks in vacuum or harsh environments can enjoy a few private moments in comfort. Heck, I can see there being a black market R and R mod just for lonely spacers.
Me? I'm voting for all "professional" grade suits to have nice, comfortable peristaltic bioplastic plumbing fixtures and a few liters worth of bagged waste storage. If I can swallow all jumps taking a week I think folks in vacuum or harsh environments can enjoy a few private moments in comfort. Heck, I can see there being a black market R and R mod just for lonely spacers.
The Space Activity Suit does not need to be airtight.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_activity_suit#SAS
Modern ones aren't layers of latex body gloves, but something like a wet suit with wires covering the contours of the musculature so that they kept the flesh from ballooning out without restricting movement. People wearing them could sweat to keep cool and urinate through the material. I think I read somewhere it would be more like a millimetre mesh in size. Only the helmet anf gloves need be pressurised.
Max air supply of an MGT suit is 18 hours, with the add-ons. Surely true spacers could hold in their number-twoes for that long...?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_activity_suit#SAS
Modern ones aren't layers of latex body gloves, but something like a wet suit with wires covering the contours of the musculature so that they kept the flesh from ballooning out without restricting movement. People wearing them could sweat to keep cool and urinate through the material. I think I read somewhere it would be more like a millimetre mesh in size. Only the helmet anf gloves need be pressurised.
Max air supply of an MGT suit is 18 hours, with the add-ons. Surely true spacers could hold in their number-twoes for that long...?
Klaus,
I believe they can IF they know ahead of time that they'll be in a vacc-suit for eight hours. As other posters have pointed out, current day industrial divers "manage" their bodies to a great degree.
Those workers strictly control their diets and schedule bowel movements with the help of food, beverages, and medications. I believe that professions in the 57th Century which resemble industrial divers such as belters, "high steel" workers, out-system personnel, farport container wranglers, and the like will all control their bodies as divers already do.
There will be situations in which people find themselves suited for long periods without enough warning, such as general quarters aboard a warship. In those cases I believe that suits will have a backup system in place.
A similar thread on the TML years ago suggested "high-tech undies". This undergarment would be nearly watertight around the waist and thighs. It would also be able to evacuate itself up to a certain volume and clean the wearer afterward. This undergarment wouldn't turn a vacc-suit into something you could wear for days, but it would lengthen the wearer's "endurance" in the suit as it were.
Regards,
Bill
shadowdragon
SOC-12
You dont need anything special to train your body to use the facilities on a specific schedule- although you do need to be careful of what you eat and drink. I worked for years as a road construction traffic control specialist (construction flagger for those who know, jerk on the road holding a stop/slow paddle and making you late for work for those who dont) it took me only a few days to adjust to 4-10 hours without being able to use the facilities at will. as time went on i was able to go for almost 12 hours. not pleasent but doable. of course drinking a 24oz Mt. Dew in the a.m. before the shift starts is a VERY BAD THING, just in case you feel the need to do such a thing. i heartily reccommend not- you want to break things when your expected lunch break is 1-2 hours later than you planned. and its your first day flagging. and you have to drive a manual 1/2 mile to the nearest facilities AND you are a large person driving a small car. lesson learned.....:rofl:
(you can in fact drive entirely in first gear without getting pulled over if you need to)
(you can in fact drive entirely in first gear without getting pulled over if you need to
)