Non imperial worlds?

[Trent]

What's the 3I policy on human settled words at the edge of it's borders that simply, for one reason or another, don't want/won't accept imperial rule? I kind of need to know for a game I'm setting up to run at a convention that has a non-imperial world in it that's just beyond the edge of the 3I and simply does not want any connection to the 3I. (Say it was settled by a small group of dissidents or people who believed in democracy long ago.)

I was wondering if they'd need to take any measures to secure their independence, like sending a message to an imperial "diplomat" that basically said "Look, we have some very nasty pathogens on this planet that we've adapted to and built up immunity to over the generations. We've got frozen samples of them off world along with some of out best people. You want to come in and take over by force, sure you can. And our agents will disperse some of these little bugs on some densely populated and traveled imperial worlds, giving you one hell of a pandemic. You still think it's worth it to come in and force us to adopt an imperial calender now?"

So would a small indepentent world have to basically play a "XXXX with us and we'll make it very expensive for you." approach or would the 3I just respect their wishes?

 

[far-trader]

Hard to say.

There are non-aligned worlds on the borders, and iirc even within the Imperium. There's even the whole Vegan district deal down rimward. So there seems to be a pretty much hands off approach. If you don't want to be part of the Imperium and you're outside the current borders, they won't be coming with guns blazing to force you to join. No subtle join or die threats either.

On the other hand there are also examples of heavy handedness iirc. But those are mercenary and megacorp backed. Which is to say the real power of the Imperium but politically deniable, and usually plausibly deniable even by said megacorps through layers of subcontractors.

I think if the Imperium had a reason to exploit the world (valuable resources, strategic position, whatever) it wouldn't matter one lick what the world said or did. They just won't be able to muster the forces to stop the Imperium whether they chose subtle and slow or hard and fast. Sending a diplomat to say "We have such and such nasty pathogens..." or some similar threat is likely to result in a "There was a planet here a week ago? Where did it go? All I'm reading is an expanding cloud of dust... "

I'd just go with a "nothing of value to the Imperium" (at the present time :devil: ) reason for them being left alone. It's easy and more likely true than anything else. No complicated scenario with unthought of developments to trip you up later.

 

[rancke]

What's the 3I policy on human settled words at the edge of it's borders that simply, for one reason or another, don't want/won't accept imperial rule? I kind of need to know for a game I'm setting up to run at a convention that has a non-imperial world in it that's just beyond the edge of the 3I and simply does not want any connection to the 3I. (Say it was settled by a small group of dissidents or people who believed in democracy long ago.)

A belief in democracy is no reason to run away from the Imperium, since one of its basic principles is to let local government alone (Of course, the homeworld may have been a dictatorship ). Be that as it may, the Imperium stopped expanding by force 500 years ago (or more). Strephon, at least, believes in democracy, although he also believes that trying to impose it from above is liable to go horribly wrong. I have a notion that all the Alkhalikois have had the same attitude, but maybe not. However, for whatever reason, the Imperium hasn't expanded forcefully since the Civil War. There have been a few attempts to expand by diplomacy (Both District 268 and Five Sisters have had mandated expansion efforts (Those of District 268 have been a complete failure)). There is also one example of a world (Ucella/Five Sisters) that has been allowed to leave the Imperium peacefull, though we don't know why (My theory is that there's a sizable Darrian population on Ucella and that the Darrians excerted diplomatic pressure). There are also all the worlds in Vilis that became neutral as a result of the 3FW peace treaty, but those don't count as peaceful.

Currently, I'd say that the Imperium only accept member worlds that actually wants to join, but generally don't allow member worlds to leave except in rare cases. Its borders have been very stable since the end of the Civil War.

I was wondering if they'd need to take any measures to secure their independence, like sending a message to an imperial "diplomat" that basically said "Look, we have some very nasty pathogens on this planet that we've adapted to and built up immunity to over the generations. We've got frozen samples of them off world along with some of out best people. You want to come in and take over by force, sure you can. And our agents will disperse some of these little bugs on some densely populated and traveled imperial worlds, giving you one hell of a pandemic. You still think it's worth it to come in and force us to adopt an imperial calender now?"

I can't think of any way more calculated to ensure a visit from the Imperium than to make that kind of threats. And while the response might start at a slightly lower level ("You have 24 hours by the Imperial calendar to surrender, turn over your leaders and destroy all stockpiles of your WMDs"), the Imperium would sterilize the world if that's what it took to end the threat. IMO, at least.

So would a small indepentent world have to basically play a "XXXX with us and we'll make it very expensive for you." approach or would the 3I just respect their wishes?

Under Strephon the Imperium would certainly respect their wishes. It's possible that the local duke would like to implement a different policy, but any duke who wanted to conquer a neutral world would have to engineer a casus belli and be very, very careful that Strephon never found out (Good plot seed there, BTW).


Hans

 

[Icosahedron]

I have a similar situation. May I poach this thread very slightly?

Suppose the world was one the the Imperium wanted for some reason, can you think of any way that the world could remain independent in the face of such a powerful entity?

 

[Whipsnade]

I have a similar situation. May I poach this thread very slightly?

Suppose the world was one the the Imperium wanted for some reason, can you think of any way that the world could remain independent in the face of such a powerful entity?

Icosahedron,

Such a world would need an equally powerful patron. The trick then would be to convince both sides that your independence is preferable to being controlled by either side.

Another question that needs to be explored is just why the Imperium wants the world in the first place.

An old wargame dealing with a planetary invasion called Cerebus contained a phrase many have used in other contexts since; Once you control everything on a planet worth controlling, you control the planet. (This observation was made to explain why the invading/defending forces didn't need to garrison every town, village, and henhouse.)

If the reason why the Imperium wants to control the world was rendered moot for some reason, then the threat to the world's independence posed by the Imperium would vanish.


Regards,
Bill

P.S. Like Hans, I cannot think of a action that would guarantee a rather forceful visit by the Imperial Navy than the bioweapon threat suggested by Trent.

 

[Trent]

I think that people missed the point that the bioweapons were stashed OFFWORLD, and invading/nuking the neutral planet would be the surefire (and only) way to get them deployed.

Also, such a threat would ONLY be used if the imperium was going to use force, openly or via proxy, before it was issued.

As to a world willing to risk being nuked rather than bend over for the imperium, suppose it had a high percentage of psionics in the population and wasn't interested in the imperium's psionic policies?

 

[Starviking]

It might be useful to enumerate the reasons why the Imperium might want a world:

1) Strategic resource - lots of lovely lanthanum.

2) Trading in the wrong material - they export high-tech weaponry to all and sundry. Only useful if world has an appreciable tech level.

3) Supporting the wrong people - they turn a blind eye to piracy or allow imperial enemies to use their port facilities. That brings us to...

4) Strategic location. Posession of the system would be advantageous in either defence, offence, or both. Perhaps a trade route passing through that world would be particularly profitable.

5) They cause trouble in the locale. Perhaps they share a racial link with the settlers of Imperial worlds in the neighbourhood and wish to form a state encompassing those worlds. Perhaps they espouse a political or social philosophy that could casue problems in the area if they are allowed to continue spreading it.

However, there is also one reason for keeping a world out of the Imperium: It allows Imperial Megacorps free reign to pursue lines of research and produce products frowned upon in the Imperium - prime example being Psionics and Psi-drugs. IIRC in one CT Product (Tarsus?) SuSAG had a facility on planet for just this reason.

Perhaps a Megacorp wants a resource on the planet - but the government isn't complying. They exert pressure for the world to become a Client State of the Imperium. Perhaps if their plan is devious enough, or complicated it could result in the Imperium trying to directly step in (False flag operation gone wrong, the wrong person assassinated, trade disruptions...)

 

[Whipsnade]

I think that people missed the point...

Trent,

And you're completely missing the point that the Imperium will take such a threat extremely seriously. So seriously, in fact, that they'll do anything to remove such a threat.

After all, we're talking about a polity that put down a revolt in the Ilelish Sector by scrubbing a planet's entire equatorial region "free from life".

So, Arglebargle-IX has stocks of slate wiper pathogens off-world in the possession of their "best people", pathogens that the Argelbarglians just so happen to be immune from? And Arglebargle-IX is flatly stating that any threat to it's independence will result in the release of those pathogens? Today it's threatening biological warfare over independence, tomorrow it could be over some other issue. How can anyone trust them? Why would anyone trust them?

The Imperium - plus anyone else in the vicinity of Arglebargle-IX - will take such threats seriously and will work together to remove the same. Arglebargle's offworld stocks of super germs will be found and Arglebargle will be dealt with. Permanently.

In many ways, primarily technological, the OTU is a fantasy setting. In other ways, primarily in the realm of realpolitik, the OTU is stark reality. Your bio-bomb MAD suggestions, like all "ultimate weapon" ideas, belong in a fantasy and not the OTU. After all, Even the existence of the Star Trigger hasn't kept the Sword Worlds from attacking the Darrians.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

I think that people missed the point that the bioweapons were stashed OFFWORLD, and invading/nuking the neutral planet would be the surefire (and only) way to get them deployed.

No, we got that. And MAD might work if it actually was mutual. After all, the only historical example of an MAD situation did work out well. The thing is, the threats involved aren't proportional. The nonaligned world can threaten to kill a large number of people on one of the Imperium's 15,000 worlds if the Imperium invades. Whereupon the Imperium can invade and threaten to sterilize the world down to the bedrock if the pathogen is released. Next move is up to the weapon deployment teams...

EDIT: Come to think about it, the first move is probably going to be a provisional interdict. "You want to be left alone? Fine, we'll make sure you're left alone. It'll take a couple of years to get the interdict confirmed by the Emperor. After that, we'll talk to you again in three generations."


Hans

 

[Andrew Boulton]

The Imperium - plus anyone else in the vicinity of Arglebargle-IX - will take such threats seriously and will work together to remove the same. Arglebargle's offworld stocks of super germs will be found and Arglebargle will be dealt with. Permanently.

Absolutely. They *have* to deal with it, and in a way that means nobody will ever dream of making a similar threat in the future.

Arglebargle-IX delenda est.

 

[Vargas]

I can see the Imperium taking a world because it has something which the empire wants right now, but I think that's the exception, not the rule. (Mainly because it already has 11,000 other worlds to draw from). My belief is that the Imperium would prefer to maintain good trade relations, thereby tying the world to the empire economically. It's a longer term strategy but one that can be less costly than all out invasion.

 

[Starviking]

I can see the Imperium taking a world because it has something which the empire wants right now, but I think that's the exception, not the rule. (Mainly because it already has 11,000 other worlds to draw from). My belief is that the Imperium would prefer to maintain good trade relations, thereby tying the world to the empire economically. It's a longer term strategy but one that can be less costly than all out invasion.

I wonder if a Sector Duke, or even a lesser noble could organise such a thing because it suited them?

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Well if you wanted to be a nobel in the Imperium, one of the easiest ways might be to bring an otherwise independent system into the Imperial fold. Bring in the System = get enobled.

Regards,

Ewan

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Well if you wanted to be a nobel in the Imperium, one of the easiest ways might be to bring an otherwise independent system into the Imperial fold. Bring in the System = get enobled.

I wouldn't call it "easy"...

 

[Ran Targas]

I think you'd have a better chance staying an independent world if you didn't have anything the Imperium or a sector duke wants, even if it's only tax revenue.

Sympathies would lie with you if the Imperium did forcibly take control; it would make really bad press and encourage other worlds to evaluate their situation.

But threaten the stability of the neighboring worlds by stockpiling weapons or destablizing the economic situation and you invite Imperial intervention.

 

[Madarin Dude]

Well a border world can ally itself with another empire or try to work it out as being a crossroads between two empires.

As far as the threat goes unless the border world is on good terms with another powerful empire I could not see the scenario with the contagion ending well.

If it is close to another powerful empire and possibly aligning it in some respects with the other empire it could be the spark of a large scale conflict sort of like the beginning of WW1.

 

[Trent]

Well, people raise good points, but then again it could also go like this:

"So, New Eolara has privately said if we try moving in, or letting an imperial megacorp move in on them and strip mine their zuchai deposits they'll release a very nasty viral weapon on some imperial worlds in this area, right?"

"Yes, m'lord."

"What's the probability they can actually do that?"

"94%, m'lord."

"And what is the projected minimum cost of dealing with it if they do it?"

"300, 000 megacredits, m'lord, counting quarantine stopping interstellar travel for months, mass inoculations, social unrest, panic, lost tax revenue and other factors."

"And how much would be make occupying their world and strip mining their zucchai as rapidly as possible?"

"Approximately 1,000 megacredits, m'lord. for one year, then the known deposits would be exhausted."

"Hmm, and they're willing to sell us the zuchai, but only if they're allowed to mine it at a rate and in a fashion that doesn't harm their planetary ecology?"

"Yes, M'lord."

"So we'd get the zuchai anyway, just taking about 5 years instead of one, and we'd just pay a little more for it?"

"Yes, m'lord."

"And no one but us and their government knows about the bioweapon threat?"

"Yes, m'lord."

"Sigh. Ok then, no way I'd survive politically if this went worst case on us, so we'll cancel the standard "They were stockpiling WMDs and supporting ine givar" ad campaign and just buy the damn zuchai on their terms."

"Excellent idea, if I may say so, Count Bush."

"I know that, advisor Turdblossom."


Also there's the "subtle threat" mode, which would be like "Well, if you send your troops in en masse they're likely to contract that lungrot virus it took us so long to overcome, and of course if you attack us we'll destroy all notes on treating lungrot, and not inoculate your men, and under those conditions it's extremely likely that lungrot would break out on at least a few of your worlds within a few years or so..."

"Hmph! Withe the imperium's medical extertise, I'm sure we could keep this lungrot from getting to our worlds."

"Let me rephrase that if you invade out world it's certain that lungrot will find its way into a few of your world's ecosystems. And, of course, it would be on record that we did warn you about the possibility and you ignored our warning."

 

[Icosahedron]

So in the absence of a powerful ally, the little guy is dead meat, unless the world can divest itself of whatever quality the Imperium covets?

 

[far-trader]

I'm still curious just how these bio-terrorists from some (presumably inferior in every way: TL, resources, brain-trust, etc) non-aligned world outside the Imperial border manage to smuggle their agents and this alleged super pathogen onto the Imperial worlds they intend to threaten?

In MTU and imo that is pretty much a non-starter.

On the other hand if your real purpose in this thought experiment is to garner ideas to implement such a scenario just say so and we can spin it the other way

 

[rancke]

I'm still curious just how these bio-terrorists from some (presumably inferior in every way: TL, resources, brain-trust, etc) non-aligned world outside the Imperial border manage to smuggle their agents and this alleged super pathogen onto the Imperial worlds they intend to threaten?

I don't see a problem there, TBH, although I think we have to be talking about a deliberately tailored pathogen in order to make it much of a threat. After all, if the people of Smallworld has developed immunity to it, it seems extremely unlikely that TL15 science wouldn't be able to develop a cure. Sure, you might need a few covert operations to procure a supply of blood with antigens, but once that's been done, the rest should be easy. For a pathogen to just happen to be impossible for science to develop a cure seems very contrieved. However, I could see science develop something that was designed to be incurable[*], so I considered that objection moot.

[*] That's not to say the result would actually be incurable; what science can contrieve, science has a good chance of solving -- especially if there's a disparity of TL in favor of the Imperium, which is pretty much a given.​

Hans