Needed

[FreeTrav]

With respect to the outlined progression ... that makes an assumption of the progression that I didn't - that all of the "safes" would remain so, and that they wouldn't themselves decay in war or just from a lack of sustained trade. I'm not even convinced that the Regency could hold out, although it was perhaps the only 'factional area' that was large enough to have a chance - but the other safes were pretty much down below one sector, or even a half-sector, and their respective frontiers represented the current bastion limit of shrinkage, rather than fragile but supportable cores for (re)growth. Supporting the safes and the inner frontiers was more often than not a question of "which outer frontier world(s) do we abandon next, to preserve our capability to support and maintain the safe and the inner frontier?".

Virus, to me, was a WSoD-buster principally because I had been in IT for nearly 20 years at the time TNE came out, and I was quite aware of then-current thinking with respect to program architecture, computer viruses, and minimal defensive techniques - and TNE appeared to have discarded every single bit of that real-world information. Unlike Jump, Maneuver, and Psi, which are arguably ventures into areas of reality where we just don't (yet) know, this seemed to me to be venturing into areas what should have been quite familiar, and instead using archaic and discredited notions. I would have expected a chemist, for example, to be just as annoyed and just as WSoD-broken, had the cause been some sort of chemical catalyst whose functioning could only be explained by relying on alchemical phlogiston theory instead of modern chemistry. Or a doctor, if the cause had been a disease that operated by "causing a rapid and severe imbalance in the humors".

Yes, my leanings are toward the simulationist, rather than the dramatist. I understand the need for drama, but I don't feel that it works if rests on 'facts' that are themselves inherently unbelievable. And that is where Virus failed.

The ultimate effective results of the TNE collapse - except for the direct issues of Virus, like the vampire fleets - I'm fine with. They could have been achieved with the Hard/Harder/Arthritic/Paralytic/Rigor-Mortal Times progression. I'm not fine with the mere 70-year lapse - it should have been longer, though it would not have needed to be detailed in full - maybe one or two sourcebooks with capsule histories and rules for playing in representative submilieux, just to form a bridge to the New Era.

Even the complete change in the system, I could be fine with - though I don't really find myself enamored of the TNE system.

What it comes down to is not the what or the why, but the how. For me, anyway. And I'm not presuming to speak for anyone else, except to the extent that I can report my own observations.

 

[Zparkz]

As of 1105? Primarily JTAS #21 and The Traveller Adventure.


JTAS21 and TTA are quite consistent. It was the MT notion of turning the Vargr into a faction of equal strength with every other Rebellion faction that introduced discrepancies. Suddenly corsairs were flying around in cruisers that were, individually, stronger than the entire Kforuzeng fleet in its prime.


Hans

JTAS and TTA I first managed to aquire many years after I did my Gvurrdon work. At by the time I did it these things were way out of print. So it would be quite impossible for me to write something that would be consitent with thoses sources when all I got was AM3, Alien Realms, Imperial Encyclopedia and DGPs V&V.

 

[rancke]

JTAS and TTA I first managed to aquire many years after I did my Gvurrdon work. At by the time I did it these things were way out of print. So it would be quite impossible for me to write something that would be consitent with thoses sources when all I got was AM3, Alien Realms, Imperial Encyclopedia and DGPs V&V.

Sure. It's not your fault if your material isn't compatible with the original sources. But wouldn't it have been nice if the material you did have access to had been? Then the current writer wouldn't've been in the position of having to ignore either one or the other, but could have built on both, a much more satisfactory situation. Of course, if your work had been official, one would have hoped that GDW or SJG or whoever would have been able to provide you with copies of JTAS and TTA.

Be that as it may, I've always been of the opinion that the CT corsairs are more plausible than the MT corsairs. Piracy is a niche market. No corsair can afford to run a fleet of cruisers if the ships he's preying on are in the 200-1000T range.


Hans

 

[Zparkz]

The average corsair would probably not be able to foot more than a few hundred ton crafts. However, by canon Kforuzeng almost monopolized the corsair raids in a period. Thus may have grown over confident and stretched their resources far beyond what it may have been good.

Allthough I do not spell it out in my material, Kforuzeng did not stay on top for long before they almost went out of business. And over extention may be one of the major factors, and that the imperial naval forces of Spinward marches finally managed to muster enough force to oust the Vargr from the coreward borders, which broke the allegiance between Kedzudh and Kforuzeng (IMTU/HIWG Documents).

Far as I can remember no canon sources gives any hints to why and how the vargr manage to invade Spinward Marches in MT, so I pretty much made up some.

From a designer point of view, there may be difficult to sort through all the old material and new fan designed material as the information are intervowen. Even my Gvurrdon Campaign book has enough canon material to make it difficult to sort it out.

But to get back to this thread purpose. Don asked for someone who know Gvurrdon pretty well and to give some help in proof the UWP mainly. At least that is the way I read it. AM3 got some glaring errors when it comes to the sector map and the UWP listing. And Alien Realms do also add to the confusion.

 

[rancke]

The average corsair would probably not be able to foot more than a few hundred ton crafts. However, by canon Kforuzeng almost monopolized the corsair raids in a period. Thus may have grown over confident and stretched their resources far beyond what it may have been good.

JTAS21 spells out how big the Kforuzeng were in unusual detail. It also makes comparisons to other corsair bands.

Allthough I do not spell it out in my material, Kforuzeng did not stay on top for long before they almost went out of business.

They were already on the way down in 1110. And at their peak they had "at least 35 starships ranging from 100 tons to 1000 tons in size. Most were built along the lines of type VP corsairs, but there were also merchant vessels, scouts, and even two captured military vessels" [JTAS21:13]. They were also trying to construct a "very large warship", which, had it been finished, would have elevated the Kforuzeng to pre-eminent status (Because controlling a single light cruiser will allow a pirate band to match the navies of worlds with population level 6, you know... there are still going to be those pesky navies belonging to worlds with population levels 7-10, but population 6 worlds is a start, right?).

Anyway, the sample Vargr vessels in Rebellion Sourcebook could easily deal with the entire Kforuzeng fleet, were they silly enough to engage one of them. I'm not saying that a cruiser captain couldn't decide to desert his navy and go rogue -- or a squadron commodore or even a fleet admiral -- but at that level a planetary-sized tax base is needed to keep the ship(s) flying. At that level they're not corsairs but conquistadors.

Far as I can remember no canon sources gives any hints to why and how the vargr manage to invade Spinward Marches in MT, so I pretty much made up some.

And the UWPs (every single one of them totally unaltered) show that the Vargr did not, in fact, invade the Marches (As does a comparison of the force levels available to Norris vis-a-vis the closest Vargr neighbors) . Though no doubt some of them snuck in, mucked about, and scuttled out again. The best way to explain that map with the Vargr territory in the Marches marked out is to say that it indicates the region where Vargr expeditions may be encountered.

Fortunately for Mongoose, they don't need to concern themselves with how thing went during the Rebellion, since their books are set in 1105.


Hans

 

[Jeffr0]

snippy snippy snip

Virus, to me, was a WSoD-buster principally because I had been in IT for nearly 20 years at the time TNE came out, and I was quite aware of then-current thinking with respect to program architecture, computer viruses, and minimal defensive techniques - and TNE appeared to have discarded every single bit of that real-world information. Unlike Jump, Maneuver, and Psi, which are arguably ventures into areas of reality where we just don't (yet) know, this seemed to me to be venturing into areas what should have been quite familiar, and instead using archaic and discredited notions. I would have expected a chemist, for example, to be just as annoyed and just as WSoD-broken, had the cause been some sort of chemical catalyst whose functioning could only be explained by relying on alchemical phlogiston theory instead of modern chemistry. Or a doctor, if the cause had been a disease that operated by "causing a rapid and severe imbalance in the humors".

Yes, my leanings are toward the simulationist, rather than the dramatist. I understand the need for drama, but I don't feel that it works if rests on 'facts' that are themselves inherently unbelievable. And that is where Virus failed.

Hmm....

Let's see here. Starting with Book 2, you have PC's with "computer" skill teaming up with domain experts to produce NASA type software in a matter of weeks... and only a relatively small chance for a fatal flaw. This does not jive with my own IT experience, unfortunately. Maybe Marc Miller never read Frederick Brooks. People don't care about this because hardly anybody actually used Book 2 combat or even Mayday. High Guard's "net Computer" DM became the defacto standard after years of CT material coming out. Nevertheless, there is a distinctly dramatic "I'm givin' it all she's got, Captain" type spin that characters with Computer-3 could conceivably bring to A-Team type jury rigging scenarios.

Then you've got "a malfunctioning security system which has eliminated the crew and disposed of them" in Kinunir. "The computer has refused to obey its verbal override commands, and has used its internal equipment to eliminate the crew." Even better, you have a laughable password system on the whole thing.

So... you have monster software engineering feats being performed by a pitifully small number of people in incredibly short periods of time. Then you have the (clearly ripped off from "2001") computers randomly taking over their systems and trying to kill people. Now add this:

Chips reproduce by engraving their own circuit patterns on available crystal silicon. Some chips merely reproduce their own circuit without alteration; others pair up and produce a circuit pattern which is part of each but not wholly of either one. Some find existing chips and graft their own circuits into the chip. Reproduction serves two functions: it produces more chips, and it allows evolution. Evolution, through the millions of years since the first chip, has produced a startling array of chip types on Cymbelline. Circuits in some cases are equivalent to bacteria- alive, but incapable of thinking; functioning only by instinct or reaction. In other cases, the circuits are extremely sophisticated, with programmed reactions to specific situations or stimuli on a level equal to that of a dog or cat.

Well... personally, I'm with Roger Penrose on this one: I just don't see how what I think of as consciousness could possibly be derived from something as simple and trivial as a circuit board. I also think this view of evolution in this scenario is downright absurd. Outrageous. Mind numbingly stupid.

The only way that *I* could explain the depictions of computer technology artificial intelligence in the classic Traveller cannon is to go the (unpublished) David Nilsen route: There is something in the intersection between jump-space and psi-space... and it is attempting to possess our computers. That, in my mind, is the "missing link" that makes that crazy "evolution" of intelligent "chips" possible on Cymbelline-- even in a setting where impossible Book 2 software engineering feats are done regularly.

In reality... I think that Traveller fans largely ignored psionic institutes, writing computer programs, and the implications of Cymbelline chips. A few might have tromped around the Solomani Rim in a souped up ship with groovey AI, perhaps. But other than that, AI and cyborgs probably weren't a fundamental premise of most campaigns.

Sure... adding Virus to Traveller is perhaps a bit like adding Tanks to CAR WARS, but... you gotta admit, Nilsen built on the existing canon to extend the setting in a logical way.

 

[FreeTrav]

Let's see here. Starting with Book 2, you have PC's with "computer" skill teaming up with domain experts to produce NASA type software in a matter of weeks... and only a relatively small chance for a fatal flaw. This does not jive with my own IT experience, unfortunately. Maybe Marc Miller never read Frederick Brooks. People don't care about this because hardly anybody actually used Book 2 combat or even Mayday. High Guard's "net Computer" DM became the defacto standard after years of CT material coming out. Nevertheless, there is a distinctly dramatic "I'm givin' it all she's got, Captain" type spin that characters with Computer-3 could conceivably bring to A-Team type jury rigging scenarios.

I had problems with these, too, but they weren't WSoD-breakers the way Virus was, because the skill levels were (correctly) never actually defined, nor was the process - it was clear (to me) even back when Book 2 was released that the future of programming was going to largely be assembling "software components" together, with the "programmer" writing only the glue, and perhaps specialized modules that had new/proprietary functionality. And those prewritten components would undoubtedly be well-debugged. The jury-rigging programming scenario is mostly a question of "Gee, I don't have a full suite of the standard tools available; am I enough of a hotshot to be able to reinvent the wheel without it being square?". Drama, rather than simulationist, yes, but not WSoD-breaking drama.

Then you've got "a malfunctioning security system which has eliminated the crew and disposed of them" in Kinunir. "The computer has refused to obey its verbal override commands, and has used its internal equipment to eliminate the crew." Even better, you have a laughable password system on the whole thing.

I never played that adventure - never even owned a copy of it until the FFE CDs. And I'd never have run it as a referee, BECAUSE of that. That's a WSoD-breaker, just as much as Virus is.

As far as the Cymbelline chiplife, yeah, I found that unbelievable, too - and never recalled seeing anything about it until TNE and Virus, so for me, they're lumped together as WSoD-breaker. But even independently, Cymbelline chiplife is a WSoD breaker, and I assumed, without specifying, a different rationale for the 'unforgeable' Imperial transponders.

In reality... I think that Traveller fans largely ignored psionic institutes, writing computer programs, and the implications of Cymbelline chips. A few might have tromped around the Solomani Rim in a souped up ship with groovey AI, perhaps. But other than that, AI and cyborgs probably weren't a fundamental premise of most campaigns.

I won't take that bet; it's a sucker bet that I'd be on the losing side of.

Sure... adding Virus to Traveller is perhaps a bit like adding Tanks to CAR WARS, but... you gotta admit, Nilsen built on the existing canon to extend the setting in a logical way.

I wouldn't consider it logical, though I'd admit to a certain level of consistency. OTOH, I'd say that it would have been better to ignore part of that 'broken canon', and go the route I outlined previously in this thread.

Ultimately, though, it no longer matters - what's done is done, and now is the time to look forward to what Mongoose does - and hopefully influence them not to bind themselves to those or similar errors.

 

[aramis]

Hello? GURPS Traveller?

Not real traveller. Stats are not the same. Very different paradigms about prior experience. Setting isn't the same (tho very close). Even some different paradigms on technology.

Plus, in the main TU, Tech levels and UWPs are in fact part of the character's universe. In GT, they are differently scaled, making them very different.

 

[Jeffr0]

I won't take that bet; it's a sucker bet that I'd be on the losing side of.

I wouldn't consider it logical, though I'd admit to a certain level of consistency. OTOH, I'd say that it would have been better to ignore part of that 'broken canon', and go the route I outlined previously in this thread.

Ultimately, though, it no longer matters - what's done is done, and now is the time to look forward to what Mongoose does - and hopefully influence them not to bind themselves to those or similar errors.

Jeff,

This is a flame war. You're not supposed to be this nice in the TNE/canon discussion.

-- Jeff

 

[Ishmael]

I'm beginning to think any references should be taken in the context within which it was written.
Because each version uses different rules and that the setting changed over time with each version, you'd have to treat each snippet as it applies only to the version for which it was written.

For example; the Kforuzeng Corsair article.
Its from CT, possibly before the entire Imperium jelled when Traveller's setting was the Spinward Marches and the Imperium was a foggy bit way over there. How might it be different if written after the whole Imperium had been mapped out? Was their ship list consistent with the 'small ship universe' back when the Kinunir was a fearsome war machine?.. or with the ' big ship universe' where the Kinunir would have been just a big patrol boat. Were there any mechanisms in place to determine a reasonable fleet size for a world like with TCS? or just pulling numbers out of the air without regard to the polity's resources because they sounded good at the time within the author's own setting.
The given fleet list seems inconsistent with other writing's where the Vargr race's borders stretch the entire length of the Imperium's coreward edge and where they flooded into the shattered imperium from Deneb to the coreward parts of Lishun and as far rimward as Gushemege leaving war zones in Corridor and Deneb.
Yet this is canon ( Hard Times ).

I think Mongoose should be encouraged to write whatever is necessary to iron out the grossest inconsistencies of canon to provide the most reasonable and plausible OTU possible. If they step on some toes...too bad.

 

[rancke]

I'm beginning to think any references should be taken in the context within which it was written.

While I think it should be put into the context of the OTU as it has evolved today.

Because each version uses different rules and that the setting changed over time with each version, you'd have to treat each snippet as it applies only to the version for which it was written.

On the contrary, because the setting has changed since something was written, it should be updated to apply to what the setting has evolved to. It really isn't useful to know that something made perfect sense back when it was written if it no longer makes sense because the setting has changed.

For example; the Kforuzeng Corsair article.
Its from CT, possibly before the entire Imperium jelled when Traveller's setting was the Spinward Marches and the Imperium was a foggy bit way over there. How might it be different if written after the whole Imperium had been mapped out?

It's copyright 1984, so it was written at a time when the setting had firmed up quite nicely.

Was their ship list consistent with the 'small ship universe' back when the Kinunir was a fearsome war machine?.. or with the ' big ship universe' where the Kinunir would have been just a big patrol boat. Were there any mechanisms in place to determine a reasonable fleet size for a world like with TCS? or just pulling numbers out of the air without regard to the polity's resources because they sounded good at the time within the author's own setting.

It was post-TCS, if that's what you mean. OTOH, I'm perfectly willing to believe that the author didn't actually establish the local force levels before writing.

The given fleet list seems inconsistent with other writing's where the Vargr race's borders stretch the entire length of the Imperium's coreward edge and where they flooded into the shattered imperium from Deneb to the coreward parts of Lishun and as far rimward as Gushemege leaving war zones in Corridor and Deneb.
Yet this is canon ( Hard Times ).

Actually, there's a perfectly good way to reconcile the two, as I indicated in a previous post: Those Vargr who swarmed into the broken Imperium were not primarily corsairs, but conquistadors (The problem with that is that Vargr conquistadors swarming into the Domain of Deneb doesn't make sense either, but that doesn't have anything to do with the size of corsair bands).

I think Mongoose should be encouraged to write whatever is necessary to iron out the grossest inconsistencies of canon to provide the most reasonable and plausible OTU possible.

I couldn't agree more. IMO canon is a means to and end (namely, a fun, plausible, self-consistent game setting), not an end in itself.


Hans

 

[Ishmael]

I fully agree that those that swarmed in were not primarily corsairs.

In fact I don't feel that corsairs are anything more than mercenaries and not directly part of any Vargr government forces. In DGP, some corsair bands were spoken of as being hired by governments and of being independent of governments. Therefore, comparing force levels of a corsair band to the force levels in the Marches is misleading as the corsair bands are NOT the primary naval forces of a Vargr polity.

While Vargr government forces did not invade the Marches for reasons related to diplomatic actions backed by powerful fleets ( my own opinion ), corsairs certainly conducted a raid or two.

The events in Corridor are a different kettle of fish. Combined governmental forces of more than one Vargr group invaded when Imperial fleets were drawn off towards Core. A small hired group captured and coerced Depot personnel into surrendering to them ( specifically them ). It's been hinted that Denebian interests were working behind the scenes orchestrating the surrender to the least hostile of the Vargr groups; if Depot was going to fall, at least they made it fall into the hands that would do the least harm.

Personally, I had considered that Norris, seeing the events in Corridor caused by the redeployment of fleets towards the Imperial Core, sought to preserve his own domain by allowing for Corridor to be 'closed' off, thus preventing his own fleets from being redeployed and leaving his own borders open for similar attacks. Imagine what THAT would do to Norris' legacy if it were true.
Vargr did not invade the Marches because the Marches still had very powerful fleets at its disposal by virtue of Corridor being closed.

But that's all unimportant/unrelated if the new material is set prior to the Rebellion.

I think it would be a good idea if someone actually did set out macroeconomic rules to find out what sort of force levels there really are, and what sort of trade routing, too. But then again, given the amount of pure randomness to UWP's, I am not sure it'd work out all nicely with desire results, even if people could agree on how to go about it.

In order to help with ironing out gross inconsistencies, perhaps a separate thread could be made where people could list what they think the worst of the bunch are.... not argue about them there...just list them.... argue about each in each its own thread afterwards?

 

[kafka47]

Ok, I read through this thread and found yet another Mongoose bash session. True, this board should not stiffle free speech (and being the last person to do so) but come on guys - what would make you most happy? That Mongoose get the accumulated lore (that GDW & DGP...QLI) on Vargr plunk into a Word Processor then choose every third word and put it in a thesaurus to create a "new" product? Yes, they are making mistakes but we forget how often that DGP also made mistakes but we accepted those mistakes because the overall production values were high. Now, the market has slackened a bit (for instance, we do not have a regular Traveller magazine, half a dozen marketable fanzines and several rival licences run or have major contributions from the Keiths). This is a new era. A good comparison could be with TNE indeed.

Out of curiousity, does your Traveller Universe include the fanzines? The Traveller Chronicle; Signal GK; Security Leak; Alien Realms; etc. You see, I believe the OTU could accomodate those heresies but I as a grognard referee can separate the wheat from the chaff.

Yes, the beloved game of Loren & the Keiths is disappearing under influences of Beal, Hanrahan, Whitaker but it is also being rethought by Dougherty and others who contributed to 1248 line. Perhaps, for some 1248 is not Traveller yet the big cheese (MWM) has decreed it is so. Perhaps, some people are still playing their Traveller Universe or Third Imperium with the LBB. Fine. These are all Traveller.

So stop bickering and do something like DonM to ensure your vision is consistant with what you would like to see in a final product.

 

[captainjack]

I'm Bill Cameron and I'm a prospective purchaser of MgT products.

What's more important to this thread is the question of who you are.

You're the late and unlamented drh, aren't you?

You were banned earlier this summer and are now back for another round as the sockpuppet "scrabble". You write like drh, you complain like drh, you use the same phrases as drh, you make the same points as drh, and leap to the same conclusions as drh. If we needed a stronger clue as to your identity , there hasn't been a Mongoose thread like this since drh was tossed out.

Welcome back.


Regards,
Bill

Shows up out of nowhere, posts entirely focus on either MGT's coolness or Hunters behavior.....Ex Cathedra type posting, absolutist group labeling - insists that insults aren't insults or are justified....or should be ignored....
Knows about traveller, all editions, defends TNE, maybe gurps, too....

- hates whipsnade (well, perhaps that's not all that revealing. ) Seems to have a pretty good handle on COTI.....Doesn't seem to post on other boards under that monicker.....

seems to have a gift for getting people arguing.......smart, good grasp of the language....

[q]If we needed a stronger clue as to your identity , there hasn't been a Mongoose thread like this since drh was tossed out.[/q]

Although, technically, drh wasn't banned -he just requested it. Insisted on it, actually. Just like.....hmmmm.

...you know.....

.....first post sept 22 .....

dear god...sept 22. You fools ! Don't you see ? It's Bilbo Baggins !


More seriously, Why does the term "agent provocateur " come to mind ?

 

[Supplement Four]

Does he have to be? I don't really care for sticking to obscure canon, I would much prefer that he was left alone to develop it in whatever way Mongoose wants to develop it.

I agree with the first responses to this above. This type of thinking is exactly what's wrong with Mongoose Traveller now.

MGT = Just a GM's version of Traveller.

Not real Traveller.

 

[captainjack]

I agree with the first responses to this above. This type of thinking is exactly what's wrong with Mongoose Traveller now.

MGT = Just a GM's version of Traveller.

Not real Traveller.

......and here's some gasoline ! We can light the thread on fire as it jumps over the shark tank.

Yay !

In all honesty, maybe the admins could just have a permanent pointer to any one of the previous hundred times this has come up ? It would save having to lock threads every six weeks or so........

 

[rancke]

......and here's some gasoline ! We can light the thread on fire as it jumps over the shark tank.

Or, and here's revolutionary idea, those who think S4's opinions are expressed in an inappropriate manner can either ignore him or remonstrate with him in a calm, civilized manner.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Ok, I read through this thread and found yet another Mongoose bash session.

Where!? Where?!?


Hans

 

[Zparkz]

I agree with the first responses to this above. This type of thinking is exactly what's wrong with Mongoose Traveller now.

MGT = Just a GM's version of Traveller.

Not real Traveller.

Isn't any version of Traveller a GM's version? What the players experience are entierly different.

 

[Supplement Four]

Isn't any version of Traveller a GM's version? What the players experience are entierly different.

For home games, sure. But, that's not the point. Mongoose is changing so many things willy-nilly that it's making the "official" universe resemble a GM's tweaked version home game.

That's not a good thing.

Internal consistency in Traveller is being flushed down the toilette.

It's as if it's too much to ask that previous Traveller materials be examined and honored in this new, wild, off-the-charts version of Traveller.

Most (but not all) of the people I know who've played Traveller over the years have already disregarded the edition entirely.