Capital of Domain of Sol in 445

[rancke]

The Domain of Sol was established in (or shortly prior to?) 76. But at that time the rimward part of that domain was not a part of the Imperium. Indeed, altough the Old Earth Union with Terra was contacted earlier and became a client state (I'm not sure about the dates involved, but IIRC the Scouts didn't reach Sol sector until around 100), it did not join the Imperium until 588. The Easter Concord was admitted in 426; I can't find the date for when the Vegan worlds joined.

It may or may not be significant that none of the pacification campaigns were aimed at sectors in the domain.

So what world do you think was the capital of the domain in 445? (And was it called the Domain of Diaspora or something similar back then?)


Hans

 

[E.D.Quibell]

The Order of Sol chaged it's name from the Order of Terra, which was one of the most prestigous orders before the Rim War. Changed it's name to Order of Sol and downgraded in 1002

From GURPS Nobels.

So from that I would guess that the Order of Terra was the Knightly order given in the Client State of the Old Earth Union as this was being intergrated into the Imperium.

From the "prestigous" and "downgraded" I would guess it's likely to have been either after Vland or Gateway, so 76 or 100 sounds about right.

GURPS Rim of Fire has the Old Domain Capital in Dispora Sector so my guess would be the Sector Capital of Dispora.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[77topaz]

The capital of Diaspora Sector is Libert (1109 Diaspora).

 

[rancke]

So from that I would guess that the Order of Terra was the Knightly order given in the Client State of the Old Earth Union as this was being intergrated into the Imperium.

From the "prestigous" and "downgraded" I would guess it's likely to have been either after Vland or Gateway, so 76 or 100 sounds about right.

If it used to be more prestigious than the Order of Antares, one of the domain orders, it seems that it must itself have been a domain order. So does that mean that at that time the domain was called the Domain of Terra?

76 or 100 does not sound right for an Order of Terra, not even as an order for a mere client state (since the Old Earth Union would not have been an Imperial client state in 76 or 100); nor does it seem likely that the domain would have been named the Domain of Terra in 76.

However, the domain (and its order) could have been renamed after 588, presumably as a result of the political strife between the Solomani and the Vilani factions at court. The order seems to have become moribund by 900. That suggests a marginalization of the Domain of Terra following the creation of the Solomani Autonomous Region in 704.

GURPS Rim of Fire has the Old Domain Capital in Dispora Sector so my guess would be the Sector Capital of Dispora.

Could you provide a page reference? Is the capital of Diaspora mentioned by name?

The capital of Diaspora Sector is Libert (1109 Diaspora).

By the Classic Era, but capitals can move. The old headquarters of the Order of Sol is on Exeter (2729 Diaspora). That suggests that Exeter could have been the capital at one point.

The chronology could be something along these lines:

76 -- Domain of Diaspora formed along with the other domains (Feel free to suggest other names (Domain of Rim? Rim Domain? :file_28
?? -- Order of Diaspora formed.
588 -- Terra and the other worlds in the Old Earth Union joins the Imperium.
??? -- Domain of Diaspora renamed the Domain of Terra and its order renamed accordingly. (This would be some time before Zhakirov married Antiama in 679 and broke the power of the Solomani faction at court).
704 -- Solomani Autonomous Region formed.
900 -- Order of Terra becomes moribund.
1002 -- Domain of Terra and the Order of Terra renamed.

Comments? Suggestions?


Hans

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Rim of Fire, Page 7 first paragraph.

"He returned to the Domain Capital in Diaspora sector to ..."

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Order of precidance for the original Knightly orders of the 3rd Imperium from T4 Page 58:

Order of the Imperial Sunburst
Order of The Cross of Arlea
Order of Terra
Order of Vland
Order of Sylea

But we then go on to get The Order of the Starship and Crown established in 17, and the order of the Emperor's Guard in 52.

So I would guess that Order of the Imperial Sunburst and the Order of The Cross of Arlea were disbanded (or they were never awarded after year 17) and when the domains were created the other three were moved in order and precidence and parceled out the the Archdukes.

So when were the domains created?

 

[77topaz]

Rim of Fire, Page 7 first paragraph.

"He returned to the Domain Capital in Diaspora sector to ..."

Best regards,

Ewan

When is that set? Is it canonical?
Even that still leaves the question of Libert or Exeter.

 

[77topaz]

Order of precidance for the original Knightly orders of the 3rd Imperium from T4 Page 58:

Order of the Imperial Sunburst
Order of The Cross of Arlea
Order of Terra
Order of Vland
Order of Sylea

But we then go on to get The Order of the Starship and Crown established in 17, and the order of the Emperor's Guard in 52.

So I would guess that Order of the Imperial Sunburst and the Order of The Cross of Arlea were disbanded (or they were never awarded after year 17) and when the domains were created the other three were moved in order and precidence and parceled out the the Archdukes.

So when were the domains created?

In 76 - see post #4.

 

[rancke]

Order of precidance for the original Knightly orders of the 3rd Imperium from T4 Page 58:

From Milieu 0, you mean. T4 would refer to the core rulebook.

Order of the Imperial Sunburst
Order of The Cross of Arlea
Order of Terra
Order of Vland
Order of Sylea

<Deep sigh>. I wish whoever wrote that had reflected for a moment on the fact that Terra was not part of the Imperium in Year 0.

But we then go on to get The Order of the Starship and Crown established in 17, and the order of the Emperor's Guard in 52.

So I would guess that Order of the Imperial Sunburst and the Order of The Cross of Arlea were disbanded (or they were never awarded after year 17) and when the domains were created the other three were moved in order and precidence and parceled out the the Archdukes.

According to GT:Nobles, the Order of the Imperial Sunburst was folded into the Order of the Starship and Crown in 17.

I still find it very unlikely that the domain later known as the Domain of Sol was named after Terra when it was created in 76. Not completely impossible, but still very unlikely.

Perhaps the Order of Terra of Year 0 is not the Order of Terra of Year 1002?

What was the history and purpose of having an Order of Terra in or before Year 0? (The Order of Vland were evidently created in 0 (and with higher precedence than the Order of Sylea?!?)), but the Order of Terra may have existed before the creation of the Imperium.


Hans

 

[rancke]

When is that set? Is it canonical?

Rim of Fire is a GT book.

Even that still leaves the question of Libert or Exeter.

The domain capital does not have to be the same as the sector capital of the sector it is located in. Especially if the domain is practically non-functional. After 704 it would consist of the coreward half of two sectors.

I'm more worried about Exeter being located at the rimward end of Diaspora, which would put it inside the Solomani Sphere. Perhaps this was the original (pre-704) headquarter, abandoned in 704 and reoccupied after the Solomani Rim War?


Hans

 

[E.D.Quibell]

The Domains were created in 76 by Artemsus in order to create teritories that archdukes to adminster during the pacification campaigns (i.e. the expansion of the 3rd Imperium). And Deneb was established in 589.

As we know these were based on the teritory of the 1st/2nd Imperium, so the original 6 were:

Sylea,
Gateway,
Vland,
Sol,
Antares,
Ileilsh.

and from the original knightly orders, and the subsiquent createin of the Domains we can guess that the orignal premeence from 76 was:

Terra,
Vland,
Sylea,
Gateway,
Ilelish
Antares

Then they create Deneb in 589 (although there are no knights until 1116 as there was no archduke? or did the Empoer award them?),

and then they do the reshuffle in 1002 to rename Terra as the Order of Sol and drop it's precidence (and the "Ancient" from it's name (as it's a new order right?)), and push the "preminet" order of Sylea to the top (otherwise why would they need to have the "Ancient and Preminant" order of Sylea and not just the "Ancient" order of Sylea as Vland has got?

So to the name of the original Domain? The Domain of Sol so as to claim ownership over the origianl Terran Confederation (orignator of the 2nd Imperium) otherwise why would they change the name of the knightly order to Sol?

So:

76 -- Domain of Sol established and assigned the Knightly Ancient Order of Terra
588 -- Terra and the other worlds in the Old Earth Union joins the Imperium.
704 -- Solomani Autonomous Region formed.
900 -- Ancient Order of Terra becomes moribund.
1002 -- Ancient Order of Terra renamed Order of Sol and precidence of knightly order reshuffled with the "Ancient and Preminant" order of Sylea at the top

Because if you are going to re-shuffle the order you might a well do it properly

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[rancke]

As we know [the domains] were based on the teritory of the 1st/2nd Imperium, so the original 6 were:

Sylea,
Gateway,
Vland,
Sol,
Antares,
Ileilsh.

As we know they were based on the sectors defined by the 1st Imperium and renamed (in most cases) by the 2nd Imperium. There's no evidence that domains were an astrographical feature prior to 76. We also know that library data of the Classic Era refer to the Domain of Sol as the Domain of Sol. What we don't know is what that domain was called when it was created in 76 (though we can assume that it was NOT called the Domain of Sol, since its order was called the Order of Terra in 1002).

and from the original knightly orders, and the subsiquent creation of the domains we can guess that the orignal preeminence from 76 was:

Terra,
Vland,
Sylea,
Gateway,
Ilelish
Antares

Which makes no sense since the logical precedence of the domains would be Sylea, Vland, followed by the rest in an order reflecting how important they were to the Imperium at that time, which would probably mean Ilelish next followed by <Sol>, Gateway, and Antares in an order that is not immediately obvious. <Sol>, Gateway, Antares is as plausible as anything else.

Then they create Deneb in 589 (although there are no knights until 1116 as there was no archduke? or did the Emperor award them?),

The protagonists of the TD Four Knights adventure tour were awarded knighthoods by the Duke of Deneb (presumably on behalf of the Emperor) and sent to Capital to be confirmed/reawarded (?) by the Emperor himself.


Hans

 

[E.D.Quibell]

What was the history and purpose of having an Order of Terra in or before Year 0? (The Order of Vland were evidently created in 0 (and with higher precedence than the Order of Sylea?!?)), but the Order of Terra may have existed before the creation of the Imperium.

Hans

My guess would be that the Order of Vland was created to put all the Vilani knight equiverlets in. Thus it effectivly existed before the creation of the 3rd Imperuim. Thus "Aincent"

The Order of Sylea for those Knights of Sylea that existed before the creation of the 3rd Imperium (but from where? The 2nd Imperium?). Thus "Aincent"

Which would leave the Order of Terra as what? An original knightly order left over from the 2nd Imperium on Sylea?

This would make the precidence order right.

Terra (becuase it's an original knightly order of the original rulers of the 2nd Imperium)
Vland (because it holds Knights who were knights before the 3rd Imperium, and was the original ruler of the 1st Imperium disposed by the 2nd)
Sylea (because it's lower down the pecking order than Terra left over from the 2nd Imperium?)

I'm streaching here ... appologies.

As to why call the Domain Sol? so as not to call it Terra and put the Old Earth Union out of sorts?

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[E.D.Quibell]

As we know they were based on the sectors defined by the 1st Imperium and renamed (in most cases) by the 2nd Imperium. There's no evidence that domains were an astrographical feature prior to 76. We also know that library data of the Classic Era refer to the Domain of Sol as the Domain of Sol. What we don't know is what that domain was called when it was created in 76 (though we can assume that it was NOT called the Domain of Sol, since its order was called the Order of Terra in 1002).

Agreed. We know that the Domains were created in 76. This suggests that before then they didn't exist.

Which makes no sense since the logical precedence of the domains would be Sylea, Vland, followed by the rest in an order reflecting how important they were to the Imperium at that time, which would probably mean Ilelish next followed by <Sol>, Gateway, and Antares in an order that is not immediately obvious. <Sol>, Gateway, Antares is as plausible as anything else.

Yes ... but they had these Knightly orders of existing precidence to worry about as well.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[rancke]

Yes ... but they had these Knightly orders of existing precidence to worry about as well.

But the Order of Vland was (presumably) an order for knights from the Vilani worlds and the Order of Sylea was (also presumably) an order for knights from the core Sylean worlds. Thus it makes sense to make them the foundation of the orders of those two domains. But whatever the Order of Terra was before 76, it was presumably not an order for knights from Diaspora and the Old Expanses, let alone from Terra. There would be pratically no overlap in the membership of the Order of Terra and the order of the <Domain of Sol>.


Hans

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Which would leave the Order of Terra as what? An original knightly order left over from the 2nd Imperium on Sylea?

Found it (I knew i'd read it somewhere) !

Alien Module 6 page 9 The Rise of the Solomani

Basically the Sylean Federation is tracable to the last empoers of the rule of man (who based him/her self on Sylea), and is based on the old Solomai aristocracy. And was based on the traditional power structure inherited from the rule of Man.

So to exstrapolate:

Order of Terra (from the Rule of Man)
Order of Vland (from the conqured Vilani (assuming solomai names and values(?)))
Order of Sylea (created when the last emperors of the rule of man based themselves there)

and these then move into the 3rd Imperim.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[rancke]

Order of Terra (from the Rule of Man)
Order of Vland (from the conqured Vilani (assuming solomai names and values(?)))
Order of Sylea (created when the last emperors of the rule of man based themselves there)

and these then move into the 3rd Imperium.

So you're suggesting that the orders of Terra, Vland, and Sylea all predated the 3rd Imperium and that their memberships were from Sylean Federation worlds, with Vilani kiduunuuzii added to the Order of Vland in Year 0?

That would work for the orders of Vland and Sylea (especially if no more Syleans were inducted in the Order of Vland after Year 0), but it still leaves the Order of Terra full of Syleans in 76. And the more important Syleans to boot, since any Sylean inducted into the Order of Sylea would have less precedence than anyone from the Order of Vland.

So the Order of Terra would still not be a good prospect for the domain order of the <Domain of Sol>.


Hans

 

[E.D.Quibell]

That would work for the orders of Vland and Sylea (especially if no more Syleans were inducted in the Order of Vland after Year 0), but it still leaves the Order of Terra full of Syleans in 76. And the more important Syleans to boot, since any Sylean inducted into the Order of Sylea would have less precedence than anyone from the Order of Vland.

So the Order of Terra would still not be a good prospect for the domain order of the <Domain of Sol>.

It's Sol. GT Nobels page 98. Gives the explination.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[rancke]

It's Sol. GT Nobels page 98. Gives the expalination.

Thanks for directing my attention to that passage. It contains some pertinent information that I was about to contradict.

It says that the domain was established in 76, but does not specify the name. It implies that in 583 it probably was or became the Domain of Sol (I say probably, because there are examples of titles that don't match the territory they are associated with), but that's a lot easier to accept, since Terra (and by inferrence most of Sol Sector) was a part of the Imperium by then.

There remains the question of why the domain order of the Domain of Sol wasn't called the Order of Sol, but that's less important to my problem, since with no archduke there were presumably no domain order and no domain capital in 445.

EDIT: Which means that the first Order of Terra was not made the domain order of the Domain subsequently known as Sol in 76, whatever may have happened in 583.


Hans

 

[travlar]

If the Domain of Sol wasn't originally the Domain of Sol, perhaps it was renamed to the Domain of Sol when Terra and the rest joined the Imperium? I don't know if they'd have enough power or influence to get that to happen, though.