On the Nobility and Wealth.

[Magnus von Thornwood]

I never had TNE till it came with my T5 swag so out of curiosity I started reading through it. Doing so did clear up why some folks think TAS High Passage is granted every two months. Seems the poor folks of the New Era don't get the lovely perks of one High Passage per month that we of the Golden Age get.

Still it is a Cr 10,000 voucher that can be sold for Cr 8000, or say used to buy the talents of a local who wants off world like very much. I think that one of the uses of being a Noble with both starship and TAS Membership is you can start banking those High Passages and inside a year and you got a mitt full of cash and travel to use as rewards and to purchase local help.

So far, so good, but then I thought about those crappy, evil high law, totalitarian worlds where just having a ticket doesn't mean getting on the ship and off world. Hmmm, problem.

Then, I wondered, could an Imperial Noble walk that local off world as a paying passenger or even just as a refugee or witness or some such.

How far do you think or even let Nobles (and/or other high power types, be they Civil Authorities to the Wealthy or Corporate Execs) get away with and how much and how do they get to try or outright bend the rules to accomplish something?

Oh. And for Hans, this includes all Traveller Universes. Still, your OTU 3I input would still be welcome and valued.

 

[aramis]

A great deal depends upon that Noble's Title.
And a great deal upon his connections, too.

If he's got a warrant (be it Ducal, Archducal, or Imperial, based upon Edict 97), said local world is likely to say, "Yes, M'Lord" and persecute the family instead. See, those guys with the warrants have the ability to order the military to "assist them," and that brings

If he's the Sector or Subsector Duke, or the Noble for a local multiworld polity including said world, or the local noble, he can issue warrants anyway, and can call for imperial intervention to back it up.

If he's holding a positional title, such as a justice or prosecutor of the IMOJ, he can't call for a summary strike force, but can do just as much in 3-5 weeks, and with much more serious personal consequences for the upper eschelons... The Cooperation is more complete, because these guys can and do hold peoples lives in the balance, day-in and day-out, and won't hesitate to see to it their job happens. If that means arresting the local megamillionare on obstruction, a quick show-trial, and forfeiture of all his assets to the subsector duchy... they're happy to do so.

If it's just Court-Baronet Nobody from Nowhere (a paper-only title for a reward noble), he's likely to be treated as just any other offworlder.

If he's Court Baronet Nobody, the local Baron's buddy, the local cops tend to sit up, take notice, and "overlook" the addition to the Baronet's Entourage.

 

[rancke]

I never had TNE till it came with my T5 swag so out of curiosity I started reading through it. Doing so did clear up why some folks think TAS High Passage is granted every two months. Seems the poor folks of the New Era don't get the lovely perks of one High Passage per month that we of the Golden Age get.

The benefit is one high passage every two months in the Classic Era. [TTB:29]

Still it is a Cr 10,000 voucher that can be sold for Cr 8000, or say used to buy the talents of a local who wants off world like very much. I think that one of the uses of being a Noble with both starship and TAS Membership is you can start banking those High Passages and inside a year and you got a mitt full of cash and travel to use as rewards and to purchase local help.

Cr48,000 per year is a useful bit of cash, but most planetary nobles would have an income much higher than that. It would depend on what world you're one, of course. For a rich, agricultural world Cr48,000 would be the average per captia income (PCI), so a middle middle class person. Admittedly, more average TL15 worlds with less beneficial trade classifications have lower PCIs, but Cr48,000 is still only about twice the PCI of such worlds.

So far, so good, but then I thought about those crappy, evil high law, totalitarian worlds where just having a ticket doesn't mean getting on the ship and off world. Hmmm, problem.

For the Third Imperium there's the possibility that membership treaties don't allow evil repressive regimes to erect Berlin Walls around the starport.

Then, I wondered, could an Imperial Noble walk that local off world as a paying passenger or even just as a refugee or witness or some such.

If the membership treaty allows the world to prevent its citizens to leave, even a noble would need a legal excuse to do so. If it doesn't allow that (as I think would be the case), a noble shouldn't be needed, but might nevertheless be helpful (Difference between theory and practice)..

How far do you think or even let Nobles (and/or other high power types, be they Civil Authorities to the Wealthy or Corporate Execs) get away with and how much and how do they get to try or outright bend the rules to accomplish something?

Nobles probably do have a better chance of getting away with bending the law, although commoner billionaires probably have much the same advantage.

Note that the Imperium allowed a member nation (Nebelthorn) to imprison Sergei hault-Oberlindes, the heir of an Imperial baron, for twenty years or something like that. So on at least one occasion the Imperium backed a member nation instead of one of its own nobles.

Oh. And for Hans, this includes all Traveller Universes.

Well, of course. This is the IMTU forum, after all.

Still, your OTU 3I input would still be welcome and valued.

Thank you very much.


Hans

 

[rancke]

If he's got a warrant (be it Ducal, Archducal, or Imperial, based upon Edict 97), said local world is likely to say, "Yes, M'Lord" and persecute the family instead. See, those guys with the warrants have the ability to order the military to "assist them," and that brings.

However, a warrant doesn't allow the holder to violate membership charters.

If he's holding a positional title, such as a justice or prosecutor of the IMOJ, he can't call for a summary strike force, but can do just as much in 3-5 weeks, and with much more serious personal consequences for the upper eschelons...

He has to have a legal backing to do so, though.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

Wealth can play as big a role as title, though of course the kind of person with the wealth to pull planet-level strings is not likely to be using them to be able to barter his TAS benefits for pocket change.

Occurs to me that the same can be said for the titles and offices which hold significant power: the nobles with the personal power to pull those kinds of strings likely also have the personal wealth to make the TAS benefits a rather insignificant affair. The Count of the Monte Cristo cluster likely gives away his TAS High Passage vouchers as birthday presents to his personal staff. Now, THEY might be in a position to pull some strings or do a bit of intimidation without having to bother the good Count with the tawdry details, but that would have more to do with their position than their title (if any).

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Interesting.

Ouch, point to you, Hans.

Now, as to the totalitarian regimes erecting walls around the Downport I always figured they could and some did. Either way I always saw a least a military fence line (razor/tangler wire topped, chain link wired and probably video, two fences three meters between them) and yes, even walls for Class C+ Staroprts. I never saw the port as just a line on the map, it is a controlled, regulated space you come through the gate or bad things can happen. It is after all a seperate sovereignty and making a Sophont pass through the fence line gate is both symbolic and psychological.

Otherwise, thanks all for the imput. Very cool stuff.

 

[rancke]

Now, as to the totalitarian regimes erecting walls around the Downport I always figured they could and some did.

I'm not saying they can't. There's no evidence either way. It's just not something I see the Imperium agreeing to. The way I figure it is that when a world joins the Imperium, there are some things it has to agree to, and allowing free access to the starport seems to me to be a pretty basic thing. There may be the odd world that had the negotiation strength to get that right, but generally I think it would be part of the boilerplate that it can't (or at least isn't supposed to).

Either way I always saw a least a military fence line (razor/tangler wire topped, chain link wired and probably video, two fences three meters between them) and yes, even walls for Class C+ Starports.

In the case of manned starports, I'm quite sure that there would be fences and access points. But they would be manned by SPA employees and it would be the Imperium's decision to let in or keep out people trying to get into the starport. To prevent its citizens from leaving, a world government would have to have it's own method for preventing them from ever getting to the extrality fence. Hence the 'Berlin Wall' crack.


Hans

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Groovy.

I'm not saying they can't. There's no evidence either way. It's just not something I see the Imperium agreeing to. The way I figure it is that when a world joins the Imperium, there are some things it has to agree to, and allowing free access to the starport seems to me to be a pretty basic thing. There may be the odd world that had the negotiation strength to get that right, but generally I think it would be part of the boilerplate that it can't (or at least isn't supposed to).

I can see that OTUwise.

In the case of manned starports, I'm quite sure that there would be fences and access points. But they would be manned by SPA employees and it would be the Imperium's decision to let in or keep out people trying to get into the starport. To prevent its citizens from leaving, a world government would have to have it's own method for preventing them from ever getting to the extrality fence. Hence the 'Berlin Wall' crack.


Hans

Oh, yes manned by ISPA...back by a squad of Marines (the minimum). In my [T5 ATU] there is a PortSec, but they are more like gated community private security to the Marines as the actual police. PortSec deals with the basic crimes, misdemeanor and most felonies crime and the Jarheads deal with nasty/tactical stuff.

Now if you mug the Mailman, both the ISPA and the Marines let the Scout Rangers lead the way.

And now I begin to see why that axiom about the Imperium is a place of men not laws.

 

[salochin999]

IMTU the Imperium and nobility are all about controlling space and access to space so the fiefdoms of the hereditary nobility are the star ports and the ability to license things like shipyards - so the Dukes and Counts of major planets are extremely rich, powerful and influential however there is a big drop between them and the hereditary Barons of minor planets.

There are also hereditary knights who mostly make up a caste of retainers for the other nobles and whose influence is proportional to who they work for.

Lastly I have lifetime Knights and Barons who get the titles as a reward for service e.g. naval officers.

So in terms of what they can get away with (edit: not necessarily openly)
Dukes - almost anything in their sub-sector and a lot in the sector
Count - almost anything in their own system and a lot in the sub-sector
Hereditary Baron - almost anything in their system and some in the sub-sector
Hereditary Knight - vary according to their boss, a Knight retainer of the Duke has more influence than a Knight retainer of a Baron of a minor planet

Life Knights/Barons - not a lot

However on top of that because a retainer can have a portion of the influence of their masters any noble who's willing and able to lie convincingly enough "I am the Duke's envoy!" can potentially get away with a lot.

 

[rancke]

And now I begin to see why that axiom about the Imperium is a place of men not laws.

It just isn't true. It's another one of those aphorisms that for some strange reason fail to capture the complexity that is the Imperium in a single sentence.

The Imperium is a government of man, true enough, but that just means that there is ONE man who is superior to the Law. An absolute monarch can change the law as it suits him. But everybody else is subject to that one man's law. And one of the few canonical statements we have about Imperial law is that nobles are subject to it just the same as commoners.


Hans

 

[aramis]

The benefit is one high passage every two months in the Classic Era. [TTB:29]


Cr48,000 per year is a useful bit of cash, but most planetary nobles would have an income much higher than that. It would depend on what world you're one, of course. For a rich, agricultural world Cr48,000 would be the average per captia income (PCI), so a middle middle class person. Admittedly, more average TL15 worlds with less beneficial trade classifications have lower PCIs, but Cr48,000 is still only about twice the PCI of such worlds.


For the Third Imperium there's the possibility that membership treaties don't allow evil repressive regimes to erect Berlin Walls around the starport.

You should reread several CT adventures - they can and do. Psaydi, for one. Aramis/Aramis, for another, and it's not even totalitarian. (You have to sneak Gvoudzon into the port to get him off planet.) And the world in Exit Visa shows that they can prevent you from being allowed to lift off.

Timerover's meddling locals are not incompatible with the OTU...

 

[rancke]

You should reread several CT adventures - they can and do.

They can stop people suspected or convicted of crimes from leaving their jurisdiction. I don't think they should be allowed to do blanket bans.

Pysadi, for one.

People guilty of crimes.

Aramis/Aramis, for another, and it's not even totalitarian. (You have to sneak Gvoudzon into the port to get him off planet.)

Gvouzdon is a suspect in a crime and a target for unknown parties.

OTOH, Leonard of Aramis has to resort to getting Lewis interdicted in order to prevent his unwanted neighbors from interacting with the rest of the universe.

And the world in Exit Visa shows that they can prevent you from being allowed to lift off.

And that makes no sense at all until you realize that this bit is a cut-and-past feature from Stranded on Arden. It's quite reasonable that Arden can prevent ships from taking off, since it's their starport. But that the government of Alell can tell the Imperial Port Warden what to allow and not allow is highly implausible, since it goes very much againt the principle of extrality.

Zilan Wine doesn't have that problem because the PCs are trying to get permission from the Zilan authorities to land on Zilan soil outside the starport.


Hans

 

[salochin999]

Some ideas for running the conflict between the letter of the law and powerful people can be gleaned from the history of private wars between nobles in the middle ages.

http://medievalnews.blogspot.co.uk/2009/12/study-reveals-how-small-wars-were.html

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...age&q=private wars in the middle ages&f=false

http://www.academia.edu/3284645/Pru...ning_the_Lords_Peace_in_Late_Medieval_Germany

#

Example: The Count of one of the major but non-capital worlds in a sub-sector (e.g. Fornice or Palique in Mora sub-sector or Strouden in Glisten) has a naval officer son. The son's ship visits a high population, mid-tech world that has limited outside contact (C starport) and on shore leave there's an incident with a girl that leads to an attack by some locals and the Count's son getting put in a coma. Investigation by the planetary authorities and the minor Baron at the star port show both sides in the wrong. No action taken against the individual blamed for hitting the count's son.

The Count flies into a rage and takes his planetary fleet to the nearby system and blockades it demanding the person responsible is handed over. Planet refuses. Count bullies the local Baron to arrest the dude. Baron reluctantly agrees, sends his troops into town, riot ensues and a lot of the rioters are shot as the troops retreat to the star port - situation turns into full blown conflict.

Planetary forces besiege star port. Count lands some higher tech forces, some mercenaries involved who get out of hand etc, planetary resistance hardens.

Duke hears about what's going on sends envoys to tell the count to cease and desist - refuses. Duke sends fleet but doesn't want a battle.

Duke's envoy hires players to pose as gun runners to break the Count's blockade and gain rebel's trust and then see if they can find the guy the count wants, kidnap him and get him back to the Duke's fleet.

 

[rancke]

Example: The Count of one of the major but non-capital worlds in a sub-sector (e.g. Fornice or Palique in Mora sub-sector or Strouden in Glisten) has a naval officer son. The son's ship visits a high population, mid-tech world that has limited outside contact (C starport) and on shore leave there's an incident with a girl that leads to an attack by some locals and the Count's son getting put in a coma. Investigation by the planetary authorities and the minor Baron at the star port show both sides in the wrong. No action taken against the individual blamed for hitting the count's son.

The Count flies into a rage and takes his planetary fleet to the nearby system and blockades it demanding the person responsible is handed over.

That might work in your TU, but not in the OTU¹ , Imperial counts don't have control of planetary fleets, and if one did (by having a second hat as planetary ruler), it would be the duty of the Imperial Navy to shut him down if he moved against a neighboring world (Protecting member worlds against attack is the Imperium's prime raison d'être). And we'll have a new Count of Fornice or Strouden or wherever.

¹ And in my TU -- gotta keep it IMTU relevant. ​

Note that although places like Strouden and Fornice can afford quite impressive planetary fleets, a lot of it would be in the form of non-jump-capable planetary defenses. For major extra-system operations it would have BIG logistical problems unless supported by the IN.

Planet refuses. Count bullies the local Baron to arrest the dude. Baron reluctantly agrees, sends his troops into town, riot ensues and a lot of the rioters are shot as the troops retreat to the star port - situation turns into full blown conflict.

And we'll have a new baron too eventually. The count is entirely in the wrong, and I can't see anyone being happy with his action.

Planetary forces besiege star port. Count lands some higher tech forces, some mercenaries involved who get out of hand etc, planetary resistance hardens.

Duke hears about what's going on sends envoys to tell the count to cease and desist - refuses. Duke sends fleet but doesn't want a battle.

And quite possible a new duke if he proves unable to handle the situation.

Actually, the best the duke can do if he wants as non-violent a resolution as possible would be to blockade both the count's world and the count's expeditionary force, denying him supplies. Also declare him an outlaw and threathen any of his troops that continue to support him with being prosecuted for crimes against the Imperium.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

...Example: The Count of one of the major but non-capital worlds in a sub-sector (e.g. Fornice or Palique in Mora sub-sector or Strouden in Glisten) has a naval officer son. The son's ship visits a high population, mid-tech world that has limited outside contact (C starport) and on shore leave there's an incident with a girl that leads to an attack by some locals and the Count's son getting put in a coma. Investigation by the planetary authorities and the minor Baron at the star port show both sides in the wrong. No action taken against the individual blamed for hitting the count's son.

The Count flies into a rage and ...

...works through agents to hire the players to go to the world and stage a clandestine kidnapping of the offender so he can be brought to private justice, all the while making very sure the Count can deny any connection with the incident. The players don't realize it's the Count behind their little mission and have been given a false but plausible reason for the kidnap that will instead throw suspicion on some hapless third party, in case they're caught.

Inter-noble conflicts within the Imperium seem to be largely clandestine affairs involving private agents, mercs, maybe privateers, all the while with healthy levels of separation and plausible deniability. If there's a private war, it's more likely to be a trade war fought in the boardrooms as the Count uses his connections to quietly steer trade and business away from the Baron's world, possibly with some "pirate" action to make the Baron's port less attractive.

Exceptions are more likely to reflect the goings on at the Imperial court, as when Baron Caranda used his own and Imperial forces to pre-empt problems in the Marches and suppress Alkhalikoi opponents when Alkhalikoi took the fleet to the core during the civil war.

 

[salochin999]

Well maybe so, however I'd still recommend googling private noble wars in the middle ages as I'm sure people will find examples there of how human nature, emotion, raw power and lack of central control can come into conflict with the letter of the law.

 

[rancke]

Well maybe so, however I'd still recommend googling private noble wars in the middle ages as I'm sure people will find examples there of how human nature, emotion, raw power and lack of central control can come into conflict with the letter of the law.

A setting where things worked like that is eminently plausible, but it's not how the Imperium has been portrayed up till now.

Each individual duchy does have central control. There's a duke within one or two jumps of anywhere in his duchy to keep the individual worlds in line, and he can borrow reinforcements from the rest of his sector.

That leaves the dukes themselves, and they are under central control too, in a way. Just not immediate central control. I imagine that there could have been the occasional private war between duchies, but the fact that the emperor will deny a duke any territorial gain (since the duchy borders are fixed by the emperor) will remove one of the strongest motives for aggression, and the fact that dukes who blot their copybooks can expect a visit from an Imperial armada (named fleet) a few years down the road will also serve to temper their actions.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

Well maybe so, however I'd still recommend googling private noble wars in the middle ages as I'm sure people will find examples there of how human nature, emotion, raw power and lack of central control can come into conflict with the letter of the law.

That's probably a workable view for the Vargr polities to coreward of the Imperium but, as Hans pointed out, it's not consistent with how the Imperium's being portrayed - at least not in the 1100's. I wouldn't be surprised to see some of that deep in the Civil War era though, say around 610-620.

 

[salochin999]

That's probably a workable view for the Vargr polities to coreward of the Imperium but, as Hans pointed out, it's not consistent with how the Imperium's being portrayed - at least not in the 1100's. I wouldn't be surprised to see some of that deep in the Civil War era though, say around 610-620.

Well this is the IMTU section so...

but separate from that consider how time effects things. Taking my example from below and assuming

a) the Count has the local part of the "colonial" fleet at his command
b) his location is say two jumps from the planet in question
c) the Duke's location is say one jump from the Count's location and two from the planet in question.

Then the sequence goes
1) Count sets off on a month long trip.
2) Duke hears what is happening after two weeks - sends envoys - not necessarily a war fleet - off to the count's planet and the target planet.
3) Count arrives at the target planet.
4) Ducal envoy arrives at the target planet two weeks after the Count - tells Count to cease and desist - Count ignores. Envoy sends message back to Duke that a fleet will be necessary.
5) Message from envoy gets back to Duke a month later.
6) Ducal fleet arrives a month after that.

So we have two weeks of action before the envoy arrives for the situation to get out of hand and the Count has two months from the arrival of the envoy to get what he wants before the Ducal fleet arrives.

And the envoy has the same two months to try and figure out a peaceful solution of his own e.g. getting some passing adventurers to try and locate the dude the Count wants.

#

I accept the general points you make but in situations where a powerful individual can create a fait accompli where the cost-benefit of reversing it isn't positive enough for the powers that be to reverse then that creates the opportunity for a private war. It wouldn't apply to seizing a planet permanently because the precedent set would be too damaging to keeping the peace but there's a lot of room below that.

In this case for example if the Count got the guy he wanted and broke off the siege would the Ducal fleet want a battle over one dude? Would the Count even be there when they arrived?

#

edit: Apparently there are colonial fleets separate to the IN so a solid objection would be if it's specified somewhere how those colonial fleets are organized?

#

edit2: appropriate quote stolen from a poster's tag thing

The Third Imperium is a strong as it has to be, as weak as it can risk to be, as good as it can, as evil as it must, and as blind as it chooses.

 

[Carlobrand]

Well this is the IMTU section so, ...

True, but Magnus did invite comment on the OTU, so comparison and contrast of the OTU with IMTU alternatives is appropriate.

...

but separate from that consider how time effects things. Taking my example from below and assuming

a) the Count has the local part of the "colonial" fleet at his command
b) his location is say two jumps from the planet in question
c) the Duke's location is say one jump from the Count's location and two from the planet in question.

Then the sequence goes
1) Count sets off on a month long trip.
2) Duke hears what is happening after two weeks - sends envoys - not necessarily a war fleet - off to the count's planet and the target planet.
3) Count arrives at the target planet.
4) Ducal envoy arrives at the target planet two weeks after the Count - tells Count to cease and desist - Count ignores. Envoy sends message back to Duke that a fleet will be necessary.
5) Message from envoy gets back to Duke a month later.
6) Ducal fleet arrives a month after that.

So we have two weeks of action before the envoy arrives for the situation to get out of hand and the Count has two months from the arrival of the envoy to get what he wants before the Ducal fleet arrives.

And the envoy has the same two months to try and figure out a peaceful solution of his own e.g. getting some passing adventurers to try and locate the dude the Count wants. ...

In your TU. In my TU and, as far as I know, in the OTU as well, (at least in the 1100s) the Count is a member of the administrative structure with no direct authority over the colonial fleet. Even if he did have command authority, taking his units of the colonial fleet off to threaten or intimidate another member world is a one-way ticket to the Gaesh. One does not hold a star-spanning Imperium together by allowing some member worlds to overtly bully other member worlds with armed force. If he did something like that, I'd expect to hear a damn good reason why it was in the Emperor's best interest for him to act so precipitously; some story about him being angry at the injustice of his son's fate sounds to me like he's putting his own interests ahead of those of his liege lord.

I can't see a liege lord tolerating that kind of behavior if he has the assets to say otherwise. A medieval lord dependent on his vassals for much of his strength would not always have had the assets to dispute such behavior, but the IN gives any sector duke impressive assets to control the behavior of the lesser nobles. Painting such a picture requires the IN to not exist and the colonial fleets - under the control of the local nobles - to be the primary instrument of Imperial armed force.

... In this case for example if the Count got the guy he wanted and broke off the siege would the Ducal fleet want a battle over one dude? ...

In a word, yes. The cost-benefit analysis must include the long term. The Count can get away with it only if the Duke actually depends on the Count's strength and lacks the strength himself to control the Count. If the Duke HAS the strength and fails to use it, then his barons begin to wonder what good it is to serve him when it's the Count who can make their lives difficult, and they begin paying more heed to the Count's word than the Duke's. A duke cannot tolerate a state of affairs in which a lesser has more power and influence than he has, unless he has absolutely no choice but to tolerate it. While the IN exists, that is not the case: the Count would be deposed and probably imprisoned, assuming he didn't die resisting his fate.