On the Nobility and Wealth.

[rancke]

A duke cannot tolerate a state of affairs in which a lesser has more power and influence than he has, unless he has absolutely no choice but to tolerate it. While the IN exists, that is not the case: the Count would be deposed and probably imprisoned, assuming he didn't die resisting his fate.

The ideal situation, from the duke's point of view, is if he can simply send a brace of MoJ agents with an arrest warrant and the count's protective detail hands him over, knowing that it's a very bad idea not to cooperate fully with those agents.

If they don't know that already, the next step will be to teach them (and their successors).


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

The ideal situation, from the duke's point of view, is if he can simply send a brace of MoJ agents with an arrest warrant and the count's protective detail hands him over, knowing that it's a very bad idea not to cooperate fully with those agents.

If they don't know that already, the next step will be to teach them (and their successors).


Hans

Agreed. The big guns are available if the Count's supporters have a sudden and inexplicable bout of suicidally treasonous loyalty to the man, but that's an unusual level of fanaticism outside of certain regicidal domains.

 

[Timerover51]

How far do you think or even let Nobles (and/or other high power types, be they Civil Authorities to the Wealthy or Corporate Execs) get away with and how much and how do they get to try or outright bend the rules to accomplish something?

Depends on how I am feeling that day. Some days, I might cut the players some slack, and then some days, they get hit with the proverbial lightning bolt in the middle of the space port. And if they start to try and bend the rules, I am known to do bending as well, and not in the player's favor. They do get a subtle warning when I start rolling large quantities of dice, or start digging through my dice bag. If they do not get the hint, then all bets are off.

 

[salochin999]

In your TU. In my TU and, as far as I know, in the OTU as well, (at least in the 1100s) the Count is a member of the administrative structure with no direct authority over the colonial fleet.

Colonial fleets

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Imperial_Navy

Priority in the new strategy has been placed on a minimum of fleet assets initially in the actual border areas, but with much larger reserves available for commitment to any one region in the event of war. Within the frontier itself, colonial forces have been strengthened and centered around selected "islands of resistance," high population, high technology worlds capable of withstanding protracted sieges. These forward elements are intended to delay any hostile advances and disrupt sieges of key worlds, until major reserves can intervene and reestablish the status quo.

Maybe it explicitly says something different somewhere else but given the communication times I'd have thought those islands of resistance would be under the authority of the local big chief including that system's part of any mobile i.e. jump-capable, force.

In a sub-sector with only one alpha planet then the orders of magnitude difference in planetary power would militate against the planetary nobles misbehaving but in a sub-sector like Mora where there are three alpha planets I don't think that would necessarily apply.

One does not hold a star-spanning Imperium together by allowing some member worlds to overtly bully other member worlds with armed force.

Well that's the thing. Seems to me if the IN were powerful enough to completely stop everything like that then they'd be powerful enough to be constantly rebelling so I'd say the way to hold a star-spanning Imperium together might well be to have dual power structures that can be played off against each other which would imply the nobles of alpha planets - not necessarily the rest - being given a lot of slack.

Painting such a picture requires the IN to not exist and the colonial fleets - under the control of the local nobles - to be the primary instrument of Imperial armed force.

I'd say it was more like army and police/national guard with the nobles being the police/national guard. In this scenario the Duke is sending forces to deal with the situation so the proper sequence is being followed and it hasn't reached the IN level of involvement yet.

In a word, yes. The cost-benefit analysis must include the long term. The Count can get away with it only if the Duke actually depends on the Count's strength and lacks the strength himself to control the Count.

What did he do? He took a fleet to a planet and bullied the local Baron into sending some Imperial troops to arrest a dude leading to a riot and a bunch of people being killed. Everything from that point onwards could be spun - if desired - as a rebellion and police action.

The cost to the Imperium - if it could be successfully spun as an armed rebellion - would be close to zero compared to the cost of a battle or the PR cost of trying one of the nobles or worse if he was popular in his system.

Then replace him quietly later.

#

The real world analogy I'd use would be France often getting themselves involved in situations in Africa. On the TV it might say they're helping out in a civil war or something and that is probably true but I've never checked so who knows if the stated reasons were true or not. Other NATO countries might not agree with the French action but as long as it doesn't blow up and cause a lot of public embarrassment they turn a blind eye.

 

[salochin999]

Agreed. The big guns are available if the Count's supporters have a sudden and inexplicable bout of suicidally treasonous loyalty to the man, but that's an unusual level of fanaticism outside of certain regicidal domains.

Or they're related.

 

[rancke]

Maybe it explicitly says something different somewhere else but given the communication times I'd have thought those islands of resistance would be under the authority of the local big chief including that system's part of any mobile i.e. jump-capable, force.

It says something different here too. The hostiles mentioned are enemies from outside the Imperium. Imperial member worlds are not allowed to be hostile towards each other. It's one of the basic purposes of the Imperium, to protect member worlds from offworld aggression.

In a sub-sector with only one alpha planet then the orders of magnitude difference in planetary power would militate against the planetary nobles misbehaving but in a sub-sector like Mora where there are three alpha planets I don't think that would necessarily apply.

But it does. And it applies to all three. Mora is not permitted to attack Fornice any more than Fornice is permitted to attack Mora.

Well that's the thing. Seems to me if the IN were powerful enough to completely stop everything like that then they'd be powerful enough to be constantly rebelling so I'd say the way to hold a star-spanning Imperium together might well be to have dual power structures that can be played off against each other which would imply the nobles of alpha planets - not necessarily the rest - being given a lot of slack.

That's another thing. Imperial high nobles do not necessarily control any of the forces of "their" world. Take Count Sebastian of Fornice. If he had been the ruler of Fornice, the government type would have been 6 (captive government, appointed from the outside (in this case the Emperor)). Now, Count Sebastian might also be the Lord High Mucketimuck of Fornice wearing another hat, but if he is the formal ruler of Fornice, then he is a figurehead ruler, since Fornice is governed by a Civil Service Bureaucracy. If the ruler of Fornice wasn't a figurehead, the government type would be A or B, some form of dictator.


Hans

 

[sabredog]

I use the rules from an article from White Dwarf called "Robe and Blaster". It has some great tables to roll up Noble perks that are tiered to the different ranks.

For example "Right of Free Passage" means the noble has the right to get passage for himself and someone else on any ship at any reasonable time. Naturally, if you leave out the "reasonable" bit you can use this as a fun way to foist an annoying NPC on the players, or get them heading in the direction you want. I've used it to entangle the players in a spy vs spy adventure when the noble turned out to be an Imperial agent who needed to get out of town. Then he died while in jump from poison, but the docotor found the poison had to be administered too soon before death to be from before he got on the ship.....so now we're off with an assassin counter-spy on board a ship after the now dead spy used his noble cover to force passage.

The article also has land grants, titles, stock portfolios, etc..

 

[whulorigan]

I use the rules from an article from White Dwarf called "Robe and Blaster". It has some great tables to roll up Noble perks that are tiered to the different ranks.

For example "Right of Free Passage" means the noble has the right to get passage for himself and someone else on any ship at any reasonable time. Naturally, if you leave out the "reasonable" bit you can use this as a fun way to foist an annoying NPC on the players, or get them heading in the direction you want. I've used it to entangle the players in a spy vs spy adventure when the noble turned out to be an Imperial agent who needed to get out of town. Then he died while in jump from poison, but the docotor found the poison had to be administered too soon before death to be from before he got on the ship.....so now we're off with an assassin counter-spy on board a ship after the now dead spy used his noble cover to force passage.

The article also has land grants, titles, stock portfolios, etc..

[FONT=arial,helvetica]
There is an expanded article by David Billinghurst in an old Into the Deep Fanzine (Issue #2, p.18) that is based on Robe and Blaster. It can be found at:

https://sites.google.com/site/reaversdeep/file-cabinet [/FONT]

 

[salochin999]

That's another thing. Imperial high nobles do not necessarily control any of the forces of "their" world. Take Count Sebastian of Fornice. If he had been the ruler of Fornice, the government type would have been 6 (captive government, appointed from the outside (in this case the Emperor)). Now, Count Sebastian might also be the Lord High Mucketimuck of Fornice wearing another hat, but if he is the formal ruler of Fornice, then he is a figurehead ruler, since Fornice is governed by a Civil Service Bureaucracy. If the ruler of Fornice wasn't a figurehead, the government type would be A or B, some form of dictator.

To my mind that's the point. Traveller worlds get their own govt. type so the nobles aren't the planetary govt. (well they probably can be sometimes but the govt. type roll implies they aren't usually).

So the nobles are something else.

They could simply be like some kind of ambassador, the Emperor's representative but no more than that.

(Although even then I'd say they'd have some kind of force at their disposal as security. Even if nobles were simply ambassadors at a minimum I think they'd have a yacht and an escort (or a yacht/escort combined), a courier and a company of marines.)

They could be a caste that dates back to an earlier time period like aristos in Europe who have some kind of inherited wealth and privileged access to certain roles that carry authority but have no inherent power themselves - basically an officer class.

Or they could have some local authority but if it's not planetary then it has to be interplanetary or Imperial jurisdiction. The sub-sector Duke represents this at some level - and if there are cluster/sub-sector/colonial naval forces then it seems to me they'd be under the authority of the Duke.

The question then is would the nobles of other planets in the sub-sector all be at the ambassador / hereditary caste level or would some of them be at an intermediate level of local authority between that and the Duke.

I don't have a fixed view other than it has to be something other than planetary authority. I was thinking it could be star ports and local fleets but thinking about it more I've semi convinced myself to go with ambassador / representative - except why have the grades below Duke?

#

edit1

Mora is not permitted to attack Fornice any more than Fornice is permitted to attack Mora.

I'm not suggesting they are permitted to exactly - although I probably implied it by using the term "private war". The scenario I outlined is based more on the idea of people with a lot of power and a significant time delay between them and authority attempting to produce fait accompli and TPTB choosing to spin it rather than cause more problems.

#

edit2

Now I think of it the other thing that made me think private wars could be tolerated under some circumstances was if "trade war" why not "private war?"

 

[rancke]

So the nobles are something else.

They are. They're a fail-safe. They have the authority to step in and supercede the Imperial Bureaucracy if it proves corrupt or unable to cope. They're a sort of ombudsmen. Except dukes who are much more than that.

(Although even then I'd say they'd have some kind of force at their disposal as security. Even if nobles were simply ambassadors at a minimum I think they'd have a yacht and an escort (or a yacht/escort combined), a courier and a company of marines.)

All high nobles get permission to maintain a unit of huscarles, the size of the unit subject to the Emperor's whim. A baron might have permission to maintain a company, while a duke could have permission for a full brigade.

I'm not suggesting they are permitted to exactly - although I probably implied it by using the term "private war". The scenario I outlined is based more on the idea of people with a lot of power and a significant time delay between them and authority attempting to produce fait accompli and TPTB choosing to spin it rather than cause more problems.

But there is no significant time delay between a world and the duke of its subsector. They're all one or at most two jumps away from the subsector capital. Though some of them are too low-population to have couriers standing by, of course.

Now I think of it the other thing that made me think private wars could be tolerated under some circumstances was if "trade war" why not "private war?"

The big difference lies in the private war in your example being the ruler of one world attacking another world. Trade wars are held away from planetary surfaces (And away from Imperial Navy ships). Private wars between people on the same world might also be tolerated.


Hans

 

[aramis]

All high nobles get permission to maintain a unit of huscarles, the size of the unit subject to the Emperor's whim. A baron might have permission to maintain a company, while a duke could have permission for a full brigade.

The canonical references show some Dukes with Regiments; the 5 Battalions of the Duke of Regina's Own are a heavily reinforced Regiment, bordering on small Brigade, in strength.

One Archduke has a 7 world government as fief, and its attendant navy/navies, essentially available as huscarles.

 

[rancke]

The canonical references show some Dukes with Regiments; the 5 Battalions of the Duke of Regina's Own are a heavily reinforced Regiment, bordering on small Brigade, in strength.

That one duke maintains a brigade doesn't say anything about what other dukes have permission to maintain.

One Archduke has a 7 world government as fief...

Or as hereditary possession that he keeps even if he's stripped of his archducal title. Just like Delphine would remain Matriarch of Mora even if Strephon stripped her of her ducal title. Because the Matriarchy of Mora is not Strephon's to give. Perhaps that 7 world governance is not Strephon's to give either.

and its attendant navy/navies, essentially available as huscarles.

"Essentially available as huscarles" is the same as "not huscarles". Huscarles have a special legal status that those attendant navies wouldn't have.


Hans

 

[sabredog]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]
There is an expanded article by David Billinghurst in an old Into the Deep Fanzine (Issue #2, p.18) that is based on Robe and Blaster. It can be found at:

https://sites.google.com/site/reaversdeep/file-cabinet [/FONT]

ooooo....very nice - thanks!

 

[salochin999]

They are. They're a fail-safe. They have the authority to step in and supercede the Imperial Bureaucracy if it proves corrupt or unable to cope. They're a sort of ombudsmen. Except dukes who are much more than that.

What Imperial bureaucracy if the systems all have their own government though? That makes it seem more likely that the Duke's primary role is security / defense / maintaining the peace.

All high nobles get permission to maintain a unit of huscarles, the size of the unit subject to the Emperor's whim. A baron might have permission to maintain a company, while a duke could have permission for a full brigade.

Does it actually say that somewhere? Maybe it does but all the stuff I've seen is much hazier than that.

But there is no significant time delay between a world and the duke of its subsector. They're all one or at most two jumps away from the subsector capital. Though some of them are too low-population to have couriers standing by, of course.

Agree on that part. Any difference - if it existed - with multiple alpha planets in the same sub-sector would be based simply on raw power having to be compromised with.

edit: actually not quite. Yes, in terms of command and control then relative to the distance to the core the distance between two alpha planets in a sub-sector is nothing however two jumps or more if there's some back and forth with orders i.e. a month or two, can be a "significant time delay" depending on what the individual involved wants to achieve. In my example the guy in charge might think two months before the Duke arrives in person and he has to back down is plenty of time.

The big difference lies in the private war in your example being the ruler of one world attacking another world. Trade wars are held away from planetary surfaces (And away from Imperial Navy ships). Private wars between people on the same world might also be tolerated.

That is a plausible distinction.

 

[rancke]

What Imperial bureaucracy if the systems all have their own government though? That makes it seem more likely that the Duke's primary role is security / defense / maintaining the peace.

The Imperium and the duchies regulate anything with interstellar ramifications. Justice, foreign relations, colonization, trading standards, shipping, money (the Imperial credit), Imperial starports, conservation, information and communication, Scout Service, technology, and, as you said, defense.

Does it actually say that somewhere? Maybe it does but all the stuff I've seen is much hazier than that.

GT: Nobles, p. 62.


Hans

 

[salochin999]

The Imperium and the duchies regulate anything with interstellar ramifications. Justice, foreign relations, colonization, trading standards, shipping, money (the Imperial credit), Imperial starports, conservation, information and communication, Scout Service, technology, and, as you said, defense.

They're [nobles] a fail-safe. They have the authority to step in and supercede the Imperial Bureaucracy if it proves corrupt or unable to cope. They're a sort of ombudsmen. Except dukes who are much more than that.

Imperial high nobles do not necessarily control any of the forces of "their" world.

Well there's the thing. Nobles always felt quite central to Traveller but if the system governments deal with everything within their system and the Dukes do most of the interstellar stuff then that doesn't leave anything interesting.

So plan B.

#

Mostly thinking aloud here but one option might be to view the nobility in two layers.

If anyone has played the old "Kingmaker" game they might remember how the individual nobles had a personal strength on their card but could also get a title like "Earl of Sussex" or "Warden of the Cinque ports" that came with an added strength of 30 or a couple of ships or something.

#

So the 1st layer of nobility could be a military caste heavily connected to the IN (and/or Imperial civil service) but whose hereditary status is separate from any current role in the Imperial structure.

(Maybe a bit like the Samurai or Roman Equite class.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samurai

So for example an ancestor reached a certain rank in the IN and was knighted gaining some hereditary privileges from the Emperor like these

There is an expanded article by David Billinghurst in an old Into the Deep Fanzine (Issue #2, p.18) that is based on Robe and Blaster. It can be found at:

https://sites.google.com/site/reaversdeep/file-cabinet

thus encouraging loyalty to the Imperium and a long line of descendants traditionally enlisting in the Imperial navy (or civil service maybe) and gaining some preferential treatment therein.

Part of the privileges would be economic as the aim is to create a loyal caste but it wouldn't necessarily be land in this era e.g. a knight's fief might be a 0.001% share in a star port's revenues.

I'd say one automatic military privilege might be the right to bear arms and at higher ranks maybe the right to a certain number of huscarles.

These rights and privileges would be based on their *personal* status rather than their current Imperial titular status.

So for example a hereditary Knight from Roup (not "of" Roup) might have as his family privileges: right to bear arms, six huscarls, an estate on Roup and a knight's fee of 0.001% of the Roup star port's revenues

#

The second layer could be appointed titles on a similar vein to those in Kingmaker e.g. Baron-Ambassador to Jenghe.

So for example our hereditary knight from Roup might be appointed as the Baron-Ambassador Jenghe i.e. the Emperor's ambassador/representative on Jenghe with additional privileges based on the title not the person e.g an Imperial baronial yacht, escort ship and a company of marines. If the person holding the title is switched the forces that come with the title switch also.

(This could possibly square away the difference between huscarls and other forces - the huscarls are personal and the rest come with the title.)

Although these titles might require the holder to be a hereditary noble that wouldn't necessarily be enough on its own. They could also require competence for the task so the titles might (officially at least) only be granted to nobles who were also an admiral or captain or high up in the civil service.

So a (non dilettante) noble career might be five terms in the navy followed by a sequence of four year terms as an Imperial noble i.e. someone who also holds an Imperial title as say Baron-Ambassador of Jenghe or Count-Commander of the Deneb Scout Service or something.

#

I'm quite liking that - not sure how Dukes fit in. It's a bit more like the Age of Sail thing of naval officers becoming governors and then getting ennobled as a kind of hereditary pension.

 

[rancke]

Well there's the thing. Nobles always felt quite central to Traveller but if the system governments deal with everything within their system and the Dukes do most of the interstellar stuff then that doesn't leave anything interesting.

The dukes can't do everything themselves. The Imperial (and ducal) bureaucracy can employ honor nobles as high-ranking bureaucrats. And every world has a high noble ranging from baron to count depending on how important the world. In addition, honor nobles can be rich and influential private citizens.


Aside: I don't know if the Imperium does it differently, but historically there is no such thing as a hereditary knighthood. The closest you get to it are baronets. Indeed, baronetcies are often explained as 'hereditary knighthoods'.


Hans

 

[salochin999]

Indeed, baronetcies are often explained as 'hereditary knighthoods'.

Cool, I'll use that for Admirals.

 

[kilemall]

IMTU, I don't have nobles for the most part, at all (except a few of the old existing European lines and some from Africa or the Mideast or Asia).

But it's Earth's initial colonization and so it's just 200 years from now, and with a much slower expansion rate, so the impact of distance and difficulties in maintaining order have not fully blossomed yet.

Instead, social standing is all about class and reputation, from the top to the lowest, and 'who you know'.

It does not follow that money is necessarily related to SS- there can be a million credit drug kingpin with SS-3, and a poor Nobel Prize scientist SS-C.

But the SS-C fellow is likely to be able to borrow much larger legitimate amounts then an otherwise identical SS-5, based on his connections.

High social standing gets you into the country club set and invitations to parties and events that the middle class will NEVER see.

Conversely, a high SS person will stand out like a sore thumb in a low SS bar, in look dress and mannerisms.

The flip side is that it is VERY easy to lose SS with lack of paying back debts, criminal convictions or even rumors. And people get downright ugly if they might lose access to 'high society' as it literally has cost/opportunity damage.

SS also conveys social customs and norms to how a person grew up.

Bottom line I use SS as a base for rolling against both borrowing/connections, high helps, AND for Streetwise rolls (the lower the better), AND as a primary modifier for reaction rolls.

 

[Ullarsskald1957]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]
There is an expanded article by David Billinghurst in an old Into the Deep Fanzine (Issue #2, p.18) that is based on Robe and Blaster. It can be found at:

https://sites.google.com/site/reaversdeep/file-cabinet [/FONT]

For those who look into old threads, the above files have been moved to a new address:
http://www.reaversdeep.com/index.php/downloads