Traveller and the language barrier

[maksimsmelchak]

Hi Welsh,

Very cool insights. Thank you for sharing.

With respect to the languages of major races, I make two assumptions:
1. HUmans can't speak non-human languages, and vice versa, because of physiological limitations. I can no more speak Vargr than I can bark convincingly at my dog, because my mouth is not properly equipped to make the sounds.

Whether a human could or could not speak a non-human language is probably more dependent on the similarities of the sound-producing organs. Vargr, according to at least some of the canon, were evolved (...or perhaps provolved) by the Ancients with many similarities to humans and I don't think there is a lot of solid canon on whether Vargr and Human vocal cords are alike enough to speak each others languages comprehensibly.

Being that Vargr can speak Anglic, I don't see why Humans couldn't speak most Vargr languages although maybe with an accent... Probably in much the same way that many French claim that everyone else speaks their language atrociously, even if they are quite fluent.

And with the help of prosthetic apparatuses (think retainers or the like), I would think that humans could speak or at least approximate most other humanoid languages from sophonts that have vocal cords and a throat. It's certainly possible from a biological and linguistic vantage point.

Now, could humans approximate Ebokin, an insectoid species that probably doesn't have human-like vocal cords? Probably not.

But as long as the two species have, more or less, the same tools and capabilities, communication is certainly feasible.

2. Universal translators do not exist, but hand computer apps are widely available for major languages, which use voice recognition and machine translation to translate one spoken language to another. These range in cost from free to Cr. 1000, depending on vocabulary, accuracy, and ability to handle dialects.

Seems very plausible. Probably still couldn't account for slang, jargon, argots, pidgins, technical language, and the speed of linguistic change in many societies.

I assume Vilani is a dead language, much like Latin, but that (like Latin and Greek for stereotypical English public schoolboys) it is still taught and even used in noble circles. People with high SOC and/or high EDU may actually speak Vilani.

In the OTU, Vilani is still very much a spoken language, especially in the Vilani core. Every player, is, of course, welcome to make any changes they wish in their own games or IMTU.

I assume Galanglic is the Imperial lingua franca, but as with English today, there are recognizable dialects and local slang, to the extent that we can easily tell a noble from Capital from a noble from the Marches by his patterns of speech, and we can easily tell a spacer from a noble from a local.

As far as local language and Galanglic go, in my view worlds are either insular or cosmopolitan (bearing in mind that these are not absolutes, but relative positions on a scale), based on trade volume, starport class, population, tech level, government, and law level. On insular worlds, Galanglic is likely to be spoken only at the starport; on cosmopolitan worlds, Galanglic will be spoken widely alongside the local language (as is the case with English in Europe today).

And of course on some worlds, Galanglic will be the official language, although the local dialect in some cases may be almost entirely unrecognizable -- again, with cosmopolitan worlds tending to have a more "standard" Galanglic than insular ones.

Very good take on a "lingua franca" or trade language.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[LeperColony]

I'm actually a little unclear why a TL-15 version of Google translate wouldn't work.

 

[flykiller]

I'm actually a little unclear why a TL-15 version of Google translate wouldn't work.

because sliding a fish into your ear is a bit unnerving ....

 

[aramis]

I'm actually a little unclear why a TL-15 version of Google translate wouldn't work.

That tech is currently being implemented...
Part of the issues currently are that getting a good database is problematic.
Part of the issues currently are that the databases don't cover dialects nor close languages well.

For example, Ukrainian and Russian are mutually intelligible. Fluent readers of one can easily comprehend the other written; spoken they are a little further apart due to 4 extra letters and 2 sound shifts (or more - I am not fluent in either, and my Russian is rusty).

It's likely that the issue in Traveller will be a limited number of datasets. And that each world WILL develop a dialect, if not a diverging language... Only the Internet seems to be keeping English and North American from drifting past dialect.

Now, 11,000 worlds. over 300 per sector. That's 300 dialects for a sector, with a need for both Voice Recognition and translation data.

 

[welsh]

I'm actually a little unclear why a TL-15 version of Google translate wouldn't work.

That's what I described: voice recognition and machine translation allow you to translate spoken speech (and reply) at higher TLs. At TL 15 this might be quite reliable but there will still be limitations.

Both the voice recognition and the translation db can struggle with local dialects and local usages, which surely will flourish in the TU given its communications limitations.

This essentially lets us ignore language as a problem if we want to, and introduce it as a barrier where it's convenient.

 

[flykiller]

Now, 11,000 worlds. over 300 per sector. That's 300 dialects for a sector, with a need for both Voice Recognition and translation data.

tech 15 and a thousand years of experience should make short work of that problem. not to mention the problem being recognized ahead of time and pursued as it develops.

and furthermore it is isolation that allows dialects to develop. one would expect every significant port and city in the imperium to be sufficiently connected to recognize the value of, and insist upon, official galanglic.

and that's not even counting imperial nobility, imperial law and courts, imperial military service, and imperial shipyard certification requirements, weighing in. none of this imperial/metric confusion and smashing a starship into the surface of a planet thing.

 

[Condottiere]

Watching Jane Austen films is a mandatory requirement for classical literature, which standardizes the English accent across the Imperium.

 

[welsh]

and furthermore it is isolation that allows dialects to develop. one would expect every significant port and city in the imperium to be sufficiently connected to recognize the value of, and insist upon, official galanglic.

We have sometimes near-unintelligible dialects of English on this world today, with instant global communications.

On major worlds, yes, we would expect to see little drift away from standard Galanglic, but there will be lots of places in the TU where ordinary people have little contact with outsiders, so we can expect plenty of local languages, local dialects, and local slang.

Imperial military service may help spread standardized language ... but it's also likely to create a body of military slang derived from a mishmash of languages and dialects, as we see in the British army.

Language is not static. It's ever-changing. And in a society as far flung as the Imperium, I would be very surprised not to see marked divergence from one side of the empire to the other, and even within sectors and subsectors.

 

[aramis]

We have sometimes near-unintelligible dialects of English on this world today, with instant global communications.

On major worlds, yes, we would expect to see little drift away from standard Galanglic, but there will be lots of places in the TU where ordinary people have little contact with outsiders, so we can expect plenty of local languages, local dialects, and local slang.

Imperial military service may help spread standardized language ... but it's also likely to create a body of military slang derived from a mishmash of languages and dialects, as we see in the British army.

Language is not static. It's ever-changing. And in a society as far flung as the Imperium, I would be very surprised not to see marked divergence from one side of the empire to the other, and even within sectors and subsectors.

One of the things that, on earth, has reduced divergence is cultures with a strong liturgical language tradition - while the languages drift, they tend to stay in close orbit of the liturgical language.

I suspect voice activated computers may in fact fill a similar role, if legislation is put in place to preserve language by restricting what the voice response systems are allowed to use.

 

[flykiller]

We have sometimes near-unintelligible dialects of English on this world today, with instant global communications.

the instant global communications are recent. on the plus side notice how efforts since the early 1800's to build discrete nation states has resulted in far more standardization than ever existed before. and furthermore note how protest movements around the world routinely include protest signs in english. heh - watched a recent video of police in thailand shooting suspects, the police were wearing vests that said something in thai and below that was the english word "police", to ensure the maximum possible identification. one may expect similar more-experienced and more-capable efforts in the future.

On major worlds, yes, we would expect to see little drift away from standard Galanglic, but there will be lots of places in the TU where ordinary people have little contact with outsiders, so we can expect plenty of local languages, local dialects, and local slang.

lots of places, sure, 'specially in outbacks. but in terms of population the majority will be at least galanglic capable.

heh, try to practice speaking japanese in japan. you'll be overwhelmed by everyone who wants to practice their english with you.

Language is not static. It's ever-changing.

that's the advertising. and it's true to a point. but tremendous efforts have been, and are, and in the future will be, made to standardize and stabilize it for mass communication purposes. it's a simple political, military, and business requirement.

And in a society as far flung as the Imperium, I would be very surprised not to see marked divergence from one side of the empire to the other, and even within sectors and subsectors.

sure you'll see divergences, especially deliberate ones by subcultures that intentionally make themselves unintelligible to outsiders. but the standard galanglic will always be available. the imperium itself will ensure it.

 

[flykiller]

I suspect voice activated computers may in fact fill a similar role, if legislation is put in place to preserve language by restricting what the voice response systems are allowed to use.

 

[welsh]

....and furthermore note how protest movements around the world routinely include protest signs in english.

Protest signs with a few simple slogans in English don't imply fluency, by any means.

And this is beside the point, anyway. English is a lingua franca, as is Galanglic in the TU, but English contains dialects and we should expect Galanglic to contain dialects, also.

.....in terms of population the majority will be at least galanglic capable.

Again, this is missing the point. None of this suggests that the language won't splinter into local dialects.

Whether standard Galanglic is the lingua franca of the Imperium doesn't much affect the development of dialects.

.that's the advertising. and it's true to a point. but tremendous efforts have been, and are, and in the future will be, made to standardize and stabilize it for mass communication purposes. it's a simple political, military, and business requirement.

LOL.

See what I did there?

 

[flykiller]

Again, this is missing the point.

(shrug) ok.

 

[Whipsnade]

I suspect voice activated computers may in fact fill a similar role, if legislation is put in place to preserve language by restricting what the voice response systems are allowed to use.

I like that. In fact, I like that a lot! Consider it stolen.

Of course, now I have to mess with it some...

So, we've got voice operated computers programmed to only respond to the official dialect/language. It could be because the computers needs clear instructions, much like how the armed forces teach a specific voice communication style. It could be because the central government wants some kind of "central" dialect much like the "received pronunciation" the BBC required for decades. It could for other reasons. It could be for a bunch of other reasons. Whatever the reason(s), the PCs have a computer you must talk to in a certain way and the PCs being PCs decide to "pimp their ride".

Before you now it, the computer has an expert learning program connected to it's dialect/language recognition system and the computer slowly but surely starts learning the slang the PCs use in their daily conversations with each other.

Enter the New Guy. He's a master of the central government's official dialect/language because it was taught at whatever school or apprenticeship taught him his trade. He isn't up on his new crew's slang however and it's going to take a while to become "fluent".

Until then, his use of the computer is going to be slow, hesitant, fraught, and sometimes dangerous!

While it would be a nice quirk to play, I can't see most rewards-based gaming players willingly accepting it.

 

[Timerover51]

And this is beside the point, anyway. English is a lingua franca, as is Galanglic in the TU, but English contains dialects and we should expect Galanglic to contain dialects, also.

Considering dialects, never put someone from Northeastern Louisiana where the Cajun element is strong on a voice radio without another Cajun on the receiving end. Then you have the Scots and Irish with their brogue speaking English, and tossing in Gaelic as well.

While the Imperium may use Galanglic as a "lingua franca", you will have local dialects galore, with Vilani elements near the Capital and Vland, Sword World corruption near the Sword Worlds, and all sorts of dialects and outright different languages in and around the Solomani sphere.

Once you have a reliable Jump Drive, you are going to have all sorts of Earth splinter groups heading out into the Universe to set up their own version of how things should be.

 

[JimMarn]

I read many years ago a short story where a starship operated on voice commands. To prevent hijacks, it only accepted voice commands from certain people on board. I forget the reason, but the owner's voice changed. The computer thought he was a pirate and tried to kill the owner, but was convinced, by another person who also had voice control rights, to not do that. They went through a number of vocal attempts to show that a voice can change if the vocal chords are damaged or strained. The computer finally recognized that, but still didn't move. I forget how they got the situation resolved.

My dad was in the US Army, and so I spent lots of time on bases. One particular instance of non-American English was my dad and another sergant explaining the American Thanksgiving to a guy from India. After he got it, he said 'Happy Thanksgiving to you and your families !'. But he said it in British English, with pronounciation style of his first language. My dad and the other sergant didn't understand a word of it. My dad asked me, and I told the guy, 'Thank you, and a Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family as well !'. He had pronounced the syllables in a way my dad and the other sergant couldn't understand. He was happy, that after 15 minutes of trying, he had finally been understood. I think he did something like accenting a different sylable than my dad and the other sergant were used to, so they didn't understand his version of English.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

I read many years ago a short story where a starship operated on voice commands. To prevent hijacks, it only accepted voice commands from certain people on board. I forget the reason, but the owner's voice changed. The computer thought he was a pirate and tried to kill the owner, but was convinced, by another person who also had voice control rights, to not do that. They went through a number of vocal attempts to show that a voice can change if the vocal chords are damaged or strained. The computer finally recognized that, but still didn't move. I forget how they got the situation resolved.

Early voice control has been pretty basic and often frustrating to use (...my mobile phone has it). However, it's getting better and better, every year. I imagine that after a few years or decades of development, it will be able to detect timbre, stress, intonation, and even voices with some physical impairment.

Still, it's a good story trope and I recall that story as well. Still haven't found the name or author though.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[JimMarn]

Early voice control has been pretty basic and often frustrating to use (...my mobile phone has it). However, it's getting better and better, every year. I imagine that after a few years or decades of development, it will be able to detect timbre, stress, intonation, and even voices with some physical impairment.

Still, it's a good story trope and I recall that story as well. Still haven't found the name or author though.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

I think it was in Asimov's sf magazine back in the 1980s. But I'm not certain.

 

[JimMarn]

Not sure if anyone can use this, but I was searching for cuneform, and found this:

http://www.lexicity.com/

Says it is an 'index for ancient language resources on the internet'. I have found links to pdfs for Akkadian, Egyptian, Hittite, Sumerian, etc. The amount of info varies for each language.

Seems to me with some work a set of pngs could be made to add languages to your maps, found scrolls, ancient carvings, etc.

I find the links that go to archive.org to be the best as the book or work is downloadable in multiple formats like; kindle, pdf, text, etc.