Law Level verses Government Type

[Timerover51]

I have been doing some thinking about the relationship of Law Level to Government Type. In Traveller 5.0.9, Law Level is determined by adding the result of a Flux roll, effectively 2D6-7, with a result of between a -5 and a +5, to the government type. The presence of minus numbers does give the possibility of Law Levels below zero, which presumably go to "0" for the Law Level. It is when you apply this to the government type that things get interesting. All government types and Law Levels are taken from page 409.

Government Type 1 is defined as "Company/ Corporation. Rule by a managerial elite". Now, then you apply the Law Level roll, you have a 45% chance of a Law Level of "0" or lower, no prohibition of any weapons, including Weapons of Mass Destruction. The highest possible Law Level would be 6, no machine guns. Presumably, that does not include the so-called "assault rifle", submachine gun, or any other form of semi-automatic weapon. I am not sure if that category does or does not include grenades. Now, my question to any reader is, is a company going to allow its employees to have possession of virtually any type of weapon that they want, with no restrictions? The union steward calls for a walk-out over some issue, and establishes a picket line backed by heavy machine guns, recoilless rifles, and tear gas launchers, to ensure that no one crosses it. Now, it appears that Law Level 3 might exclude the tear gas launchers and flame throwers, but Law Level 3 or higher would require a Flux roll of 2, 3, 4, or 5. That would occur only 36% of the time. Not good odds for the "managerial elite".

Government Type 3, the "Self-Perpetuating Oligarchy: Rule by a isolated minority", is in somewhat of a similar situation. The Law Level range is from a minus 2 to a plus 8. This would give a 27% chance of no weapon restrictions whatsoever, while they would have the same chance for Law Level 6 and higher. Looking at it the other way, this would mean a 73% chance that the citizens could possess machine guns, and whatever additional hardware may be inferred. I trust that the Self-Perpetuating Oligarchy has very good body guards, and is also well furnished with descendants, to compensate for adult mortality.

Even a Government Type of 6, the "Captive Government/Colony: Rule by an externally imposed leadership", has only a 55% chance of keeping machine guns out of the hands of the occupied. The lowest Law Level of "1" would at least keep Weapons of Mass Destruction out of the hands of normal citizens. Maybe.

As for Government type 7, a Balkanized world, you would have to roll for the government type controlling the area around the star port, along with a Flux roll for Law Level to determine law level. On a planet like that, once away from the star port, literally anything may go. Now that would make for an interesting game session. Trying to stay alive on a planet where the Law Level of the Star Port is "A", and the Law Level of the area the players have to go to is "0.

Realistically, the relationship of Government Type and Law Level should be given a bit of an overhaul.

 

[Epee]

You have a point. It would seem that government types that impose the will of the few over the many would, most likely, favor more restrictive laws regarding individual ownership of weapons. However, some types of government, say a theocracy, could be almost anywhere on the scale depending on their beliefs and general support from the population; same with a popular dictator.

I've often speculated that the Imperium, and every other interstellar governing organization, would surely restrict starship weapons; based on the damage they could do planetside.

Just as a point of order; a true assault rifle and submachinegun are automatic weapons by definition; although they might be select or burst fire. The modern journalistic term, "Assault rifle", is a common misnomer for a semi-automatic with a large detachable magazine that looks like a military rifle.

 

[Timerover51]

You have a point. It would seem that government types that impose the will of the few over the many would, most likely, favor more restrictive laws regarding individual ownership of weapons. However, some types of government, say a theocracy, could be almost anywhere on the scale depending on their beliefs and general support from the population; same with a popular dictator.

I've often speculated that the Imperium, and every other interstellar governing organization, would surely restrict starship weapons; based on the damage they could do planetside.

Just as a point of order; a true assault rifle and submachinegun are automatic weapons by definition; although they might be select or burst fire. The modern journalistic term, "Assault rifle", is a common misnomer for a semi-automatic with a large detachable magazine that looks like a military rifle.

That is why I put "assault rifle" in quotes. I am not sure how widely the term "machine gun" is being used. When I see "machine gun", I immediately think of a belt-fed weapon with a bipod as a minimum, and more likely mounted on a tripod. I view a BREN gun and the Browning Automatic Rifle as magazine-fed automatic rifles or as full rifle-power cartridge assault rifles. "Automatic weapons" would cover them, as well as the military assault rifle and submachine guns.

I am also not sure of what is meant by "portable weapons" under Law Level 2. Technically, that could cover any weapon which could be easily carried, so effectively ban just about every form of hand weapon.

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

That is why I put "assault rifle" in quotes. I am not sure how widely the term "machine gun" is being used. When I see "machine gun", I immediately think of a belt-fed weapon with a bipod as a minimum, and more likely mounted on a tripod. I view a BREN gun and the Browning Automatic Rifle as magazine-fed automatic rifles or as full rifle-power cartridge assault rifles. "Automatic weapons" would cover them, as well as the military assault rifle and submachine guns.

I am also not sure of what is meant by "portable weapons" under Law Level 2. Technically, that could cover any weapon which could be easily carried, so effectively ban just about every form of hand weapon.

my read of "portable weapons" would be the PGMP/FGMP guns, which are very destructive, and I've seen them called "Man Portable" as a type in some works (notably MgT1e, which calls the Gun Combat specialisation for them "Man Portable Artillery")

The highest possible Law Level would be 6, no machine guns. Presumably, that does not include the so-called "assault rifle", submachine gun, or any other form of semi-automatic weapon. I am not sure if that category does or does not include grenades

.


Hmm,


MgT law levels must be different, as in both editions, LL6 is "all firearms except Shotguns and Stunners, carrying weapons discouraged". "light assault weapons and SMGs" is banned at LL4, which (to me, at least) would cover any weapon capable of automatic fire, like a modern assault rifle or a mag fed LMG* so, semi auto weapons only. or very roughly what the laws are In the US**.

LL3 is "military weapons" or "heavy weapons" (depending on edition), under which I would put what I know as "crew served" weapons like belt-fed MGs of rifle or higher calibre, ect.

"Explosives" are banned at LL2, which I would say covers grenades, grenade launchers, RPGs etc.


* I'd argue their is a difference between the two IRL, but not one that would matter in game terms, as its a matter of era, doctrine and usage.

**I know its technically possible for a private citizen to own a machine gun in the US under some form of grandfather clause, but in general, my understanding is that citizens are limited to semi auto rifles, shotguns and pistols as leagally owned weaponry. for the record, I would put the UKs stricter gun laws at LL5, banning concealable pistols but not long barrelled rifles or shotguns.

 

[Timerover51]

my read of "portable weapons" would be the PGMP/FGMP guns, which are very destructive, and I've seen them called "Man Portable" as a type in some works (notably MgT1e, which calls the Gun Combat specialisation for them "Man Portable Artillery")

Thanks for the comment on "portable weapons" as I was thinking of them as being similar to laser and beam weapons under Law Level 4.

Hmm,
MgT law levels must be different, as in both editions, LL6 is "all firearms except Shotguns and Stunners, carrying weapons discouraged". "light assault weapons and SMGs" is banned at LL4, which (to me, at least) would cover any weapon capable of automatic fire, like a modern assault rifle or a mag fed LMG* so, semi auto weapons only. or very roughly what the laws are In the US**.

LL3 is "military weapons" or "heavy weapons" (depending on edition), under which I would put what I know as "crew served" weapons like belt-fed MGs of rifle or higher calibre, ect.

"Explosives" are banned at LL2, which I would say covers grenades, grenade launchers, RPGs etc.


* I'd argue their is a difference between the two IRL, but not one that would matter in game terms, as its a matter of era, doctrine and usage.

I was working from the Law Levels for Traveller 5.0.9. The Cepheus Engine Law Levels are different as well from Traveller 5.

**I know its technically possible for a private citizen to own a machine gun in the US under some form of grandfather clause, but in general, my understanding is that citizens are limited to semi auto rifles, shotguns and pistols as leagally owned weaponry. for the record, I would put the UKs stricter gun laws at LL5, banning concealable pistols but not long barrelled rifles or shotguns.

Actually, it is possible for a private citizen to own a fully-automatic weapon as long as it was made prior to 1986, and you register it and pay the needed transfer tax. Some of the reenactment groups own them. One group even has a fully functioning M3 Light tank, to include the 37mm Gun. The ammo for that is a bit expensive. They also have periodic shoot offs where the general public can fire the fully automatic weapons.

 

[McPerth]

Never forget that the weapons availability iso nly one part of the Law Level. IT is also used to see if you're harrassed by the authorities (LL or less in 2d6), and it may also be used for other usages.

Even so, though, I guess the OP is quite right...

 

[whulorigan]

MgT law levels must be different, as in both editions, LL6 is "all firearms except Shotguns and Stunners, carrying weapons discouraged". "light assault weapons and SMGs" is banned at LL4, which (to me, at least) would cover any weapon capable of automatic fire, like a modern assault rifle or a mag fed LMG* so, semi auto weapons only. or very roughly what the laws are In the US**.

LL3 is "military weapons" or "heavy weapons" (depending on edition), under which I would put what I know as "crew served" weapons like belt-fed MGs of rifle or higher calibre, ect.

"Explosives" are banned at LL2, which I would say covers grenades, grenade launchers, RPGs etc.

T5 has a different Law Level scheme than all other prior editions of Traveller. MgT is similar to prior Traveller LL charts.

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

Actually, it is possible for a private citizen to own a fully-automatic weapon as long as it was made prior to 1986, and you register it and pay the needed transfer tax. Some of the reenactment groups own them. One group even has a fully functioning M3 Light tank, to include the 37mm Gun. The ammo for that is a bit expensive. They also have periodic shoot offs where the general public can fire the fully automatic weapons.

Like I said, I know its possible via a grandfather clause, but I was under the impression that it wasn't that common in terms of absolute numbers (maybe a few thousand weapons out of 300 million plus in the US?) Hence my comment that the law generally is that people cant own automatic weapons.


anyway, on topic, does 5th ed have a pop modifier to Law Level like in older editions, or Is it just government type? a corporate government world with only a few hundred inhabitants might not need as complex a law system as a planet with hundreds of thousands of people (compare the classic "country sheriff" with a half-dozen deputies to the thousands strong Police Departments of NYC or LA, or the hundreds of specialised federal agents).

 

[Enoki]

Never forget that the weapons availability iso nly one part of the Law Level. IT is also used to see if you're harrassed by the authorities (LL or less in 2d6), and it may also be used for other usages.

Even so, though, I guess the OP is quite right...

This is sort of where I'm at on this. I think using weapons alone as a measure of law level is simply too crude a measure. I prefer to use it as a measure of how officious and pedantic the legal system and government in general are.

For example at LL 5, dealing with officials, police, the government, they are pretty flexible and will work with you to get things done legally, whether it's carrying an allowed weapon or getting the necessary permit to operate your air raft.
At LL 9+ they are officious and pedantic. That is there are forms to be filled out. Lots of forms. They must be filled out correctly, and submitted in the proper order and fashion. There are fees that go with that. You fill these out wrong, don't submit them correctly, don't pay the fee, you can pretty much expect that you'll get turned down. Fixing this will take lots of time and effort on your part.
The police will hassle you from time to time. It might be something as simple as a security checkpoint like at the starport (think TSA and then some). Or, there might be security to enter a building, possibly even a store.
At higher levels showing "papers" is going to be a regular thing.
At LL say 2 to 4, the police aren't particularly going to hassle you about having whatever weapon they think is reasonable but, you are far more likely to get hassled if you are openly carrying it around with you. The result from that might be getting politely told to go store it in your vehicle, or check it with the authorities until you leave. If you balk and give them crap the chances skyrocket that you are going to have a serious issue suddenly.
At those high law levels, you are carrying concealed and somebody notices and reports you. Doesn't matter what you are carrying, the police descend on you like vultures on roadkill and you get arrested, hassled, and run through the ringer just because they can.

But, more often than not, it's dealing with the bureaucracy and government officials that law level sets the tone. I've done low law levels where you can't even find the correct official half the time for something simply because they don't really care that much about what you need. You can do it anyway, just don't make anyone mad in the process.

At the upper end, everything is a hassle. It's like the DMV on steroids. You might be told you really need to hire professional help to navigate the system. If you don't, that's on you... Do stuff outside the official system and get noticed... you better be prepared to get off the planet ASAP.

Thus, the law level is sort of a roll for "NO!" on anything you might do that the government might be involved in. For example, the planet is LL 9. You have a ground vehicle on your ship of some sort. You are told it needs to be registered and the driver(s) licensed to operate it. There are rolls for success associated with that. Having some liaison skill would help along with more than ATV 0 or whatever vehicle driving skill was involved.

 

[whulorigan]

I think using weapons alone as a measure of law level is simply too crude a measure. I prefer to use it as a measure of how officious and pedantic the legal system and government in general are.

This generally is my view as well. Law Level (in the UWP) is the relative strictness and severity of law in general. For things like weapons (et al), for a given world I can note separately in the world description what the "specific Law Level" is for any given class or category.

So if a world (in the UWP) has a Law Level of 9, they are fairly strict and rather oppressive and/or intrusive. For a Law Level of 1, they are very hands off and not overly concerned with enforcement. If I add in sub-categories on a world description, then you can get interesting combinations.

For example:

General Law Level 1 world that is Weapons Law Level 9:
There are restriction on all weapons outside the home, but they do not intrusively search and enforce, and if you do get caught they may give you a friendly "talking to" and/or a "Now I didn't see that, now did I . . . " response if you get the hint and get the weapon back to your residence ASAP.

General Law Level 9 world that is Weapons Law Level 1:
The Law is very liberal about the kinds of weapon a person may carry, but DON'T YOU DARE get caught with one of the few proscribed weapons.​

This system can be used for multiple categories of potential contraband, as defined by the GM.

 

[Timerover51]

anyway, on topic, does 5th ed have a pop modifier to Law Level like in older editions, or Is it just government type? a corporate government world with only a few hundred inhabitants might not need as complex a law system as a planet with hundreds of thousands of people (compare the classic "country sheriff" with a half-dozen deputies to the thousands strong Police Departments of NYC or LA, or the hundreds of specialised federal agents).

In Traveller 5, the Law Level is Flux + Government Type, with no population modifier. Government Type is Flux + Population. Flux is basically 2D6 - 7. Basically, thiere is a bias towards more restrictive governments with larger populations, with a corresponding bias towards high Law Levels. T5 does have a wider range of Law Levels that some of the earlier versions, but not by a large amount.

Those are some interesting ideas on using Law Level as a means of determining how big a headache the local bureaucracy can be, but I was aware of that.

One thing that does show up in the way Law Level is focused on weaponry is that there is nothing said about armor. Getting off a ship wearing Combat Armor, even if not carrying any weaponry would pose a serious threat to a small community. Nor is there anything about armored tracked vehicles. If not carrying weapons, it looks like you could operate a Tiger 2 without a whole lot of questions being asked. I have one planet where getting off of a ship wearing any kind of armor will get you shot out of hand, no questions asked. The planet has been readied by Space Vikings a few times and is a touch sensitive on the subject.

 

[Epee]

Certainly effective armor, though defensive in nature, makes an attack with any form of weapon more difficult to stop. Someone in powered armor could beat an unarmored person to death with rolled up newspaper. Therefore, certain levels of body armor are restricted in various locals today.

Automatic weapons, cartridge weapons larger than .50", and explosive devices are by no means "common" in the United States; being either a rich man's toy/collectible or a very illegal weapon of a very dangerous person or a wanna-be fool.

Generally, governing organizations never restrict themselves from any means of violence (though possessing them often depends on the need vs. the budget), and allow their "made" supporters "permits" or "licenses" for weapons more deadly than those they allow the general population. It is worth noting that even the occupying Nazis allowed farmers, in western Europe in any case, shotguns in order to protect their crops from theft and vermin (I feel quite certain that they limited them to small game loads).

In the US and a few other democracies, this permit system is extended to those of know good character who can pay the licensing fee and jump through the bureaucratic hoops; reasoning being that persons of this nature and means have no reason to "rock the boat" and much to loose if they misbehave.

 

[Enoki]

In Traveller 5, the Law Level is Flux + Government Type, with no population modifier. Government Type is Flux + Population. Flux is basically 2D6 - 7. Basically, thiere is a bias towards more restrictive governments with larger populations, with a corresponding bias towards high Law Levels. T5 does have a wider range of Law Levels that some of the earlier versions, but not by a large amount.

Those are some interesting ideas on using Law Level as a means of determining how big a headache the local bureaucracy can be, but I was aware of that.

One thing that does show up in the way Law Level is focused on weaponry is that there is nothing said about armor. Getting off a ship wearing Combat Armor, even if not carrying any weaponry would pose a serious threat to a small community. Nor is there anything about armored tracked vehicles. If not carrying weapons, it looks like you could operate a Tiger 2 without a whole lot of questions being asked. I have one planet where getting off of a ship wearing any kind of armor will get you shot out of hand, no questions asked. The planet has been readied by Space Vikings a few times and is a touch sensitive on the subject.

This is a lot like how I run things. You get off the ship wearing body armor that's obvious, and if the LL is moderately high to high, you get more than a raised eyebrow. It is taken the same way weapons are.
I handle it as the local authorities wondering why you need to be wearing personal armor in public. On a vacuum or trace world wearing combat armor without weapons and telling the authorities it's the only vac suit you've got, will probably fly. Wearing it as a fashion statement won't.

Vehicles are the same way. I've had the locals tell players they can't use their air raft unless they operate it as a ground vehicle and follow roads and such because they it isn't licensed as a "aircraft." Getting the vehicle more than a foot or so off the ground will get the authorities' attention and the players in serious trouble.
Just because you have an eight wheeled armored off-road vehicle doesn't mean you can put it on the road wherever and whenever you want. Many places will say not only "NO!" but "Hell NO!"
Or, I've had cities were the "streets" are just wide enough for little electric box-like cars to get around. This is about the biggest personal vehicle allowed on the street. So, your ATV sits in the ship because it's illegal for road use.




This is all a way of saying "no" politely to the players to prevent them from getting weapons, vehicles, or whatever that would make the scenario too easy for them. Instead, they have to work through or around problems thrown in their path. That keeps things interesting.

 

[Timerover51]

This is a lot like how I run things. You get off the ship wearing body armor that's obvious, and if the LL is moderately high to high, you get more than a raised eyebrow. It is taken the same way weapons are.

I handle it as the local authorities wondering why you need to be wearing personal armor in public. On a vacuum or trace world wearing combat armor without weapons and telling the authorities it's the only vac suit you've got, will probably fly. Wearing it as a fashion statement won't.

Vehicles are the same way. I've had the locals tell players they can't use their air raft unless they operate it as a ground vehicle and follow roads and such because they it isn't licensed as a "aircraft." Getting the vehicle more than a foot or so off the ground will get the authorities' attention and the players in serious trouble.

Just because you have an eight wheeled armored off-road vehicle doesn't mean you can put it on the road wherever and whenever you want. Many places will say not only "NO!" but "Hell NO!"
Or, I've had cities were the "streets" are just wide enough for little electric box-like cars to get around. This is about the biggest personal vehicle allowed on the street. So, your ATV sits in the ship because it's illegal for road use.




This is all a way of saying "no" politely to the players to prevent them from getting weapons, vehicles, or whatever that would make the scenario too easy for them. Instead, they have to work through or around problems thrown in their path. That keeps things interesting.

I like your ideas. When we were driving around in England in a fairly large car, there were several times when I was not sure I was going to make it down one of the streets without wiping the side mirrors off. Then there were the single-track dual carriageways with the stone walls on both sides where I had the same feeling. A couple of other possible issues for ground vehicles would be bridge weight limits and bridge heights. There are a lot of videos on YouTube of what happens when a semi-trailer or other type of truck tries to go under too low a bridge.

 

[kilemall]

When discussing LL, I think it's important to keep in mind the bribery rule- the throw to avoid hassle is the LL or higher (which also puts into play any forged documents the players are using), but the bribery roll is ALSO LL or below.
So, the higher the LL, the more corrupt the LE is, at least with relatively petty matters.

This is CT, not sure what is done for other versions.

Anyway, a very elegant mechanic indicating there is a basic street level workaround for stifling overbearing government.


But note something, the lower LL worlds are also going to be more dangerous, in that they may allow more, but are also not open to bribery and you are more likely to experience the full brunt of laws broken rather then just the inconvenience/cost factor of Ye Olde LL-9 planet.


And in a way the alpha threat is LL-7- likely to be hassled, but only a roughly half chance to bribe your way out.

 

[kilemall]

Anyway, a couple of variants I came up with for the reader to play with while considering the overall topic.


1) There is Personal Law Level, what law and police hassle applies to your character.

The formula is LL+7-SOC.

So this means that even in a LL2 world SOC-2 is highly restricted and bribery is a daily occurrence for them, and on LL9 a SOC-B noble can carry anything and waltz through with little hassle.
I would tend to go with rolling against the lowest SOC in a group, and applying the highest SOC to bribery. But that's just me, I'm mean, probably better to have different mixes for different planets.



2) Roll per type of offense, LL or less to be illegal.

I'd probably have a list of DMs for common crimes like theft, murder, assault, etc.

The idea would be that it might be legal for murder or at least dueling, but illegal to litter in public. That way you really have to watch yourself or look anything up before stepping across the extrality line, and each world gets another layer of uniqueness patina.

 

[kilemall]

Anyway, the OP has an excellent point.
But, I so love the mechanic.

The corporate planet, hrrm, I could see the frontier mining town type of setup like the movie Outland where LE is minimal and focused on shall we say, productivity, or an Orwellian control freak situation.

Anyway, just as a departure point of discussion, this is the classic listing-


0 No Government Structure In many cases, tribal, clan or family bonds predominate
1 Company/Corporation Government by a company managerial elite, citizens are company employees.
2 Participating Democracy Government by advice and consent of the citizen.
3 Self-Perpetuating Oligarchy Government by a restricted minority, with little or no input from the masses.
4 Representative Democracy Government by elected representatives.
5 Feudal Technocracy Government by specific individuals for those who agree to be ruled. Relationships are based on the performance of technical activities which are mutually-beneficial.
6 Captive Government/Colony Government by a leadership answerable to an outside group, a colony or conquered area.
7 Balkanization No central ruling authority exists. Rival governments compete for control.
8 Civil Service Bureaucracy Government by agencies employing individuals selected for their expertise.
9 Impersonal Bureaucracy Government by agencies which are insulated from the governed.
A (10) Charismatic Dictator Government by a single leader enjoying the confidence of the citizens.
B (11) Non-Charismatic Leader A previous charismatic dictator has been replaced by a leader through normal channels.
C (12) Charismatic Oligarchy Government by a select group, organization, or class enjoying overwhelming confidence of the citizenry.
D (13) Religious Dictatorship Government by a religious minority which has little regard for the needs of the citizenry.
E (14) Religious Autocracy Government by a single religious leader having absolute power over the citizenry.
F (15) Totalitarian Oligarchy Government by an all-powerful minority which maintains absolute control through widespread coercion and oppression


I'm thinking we leave most alone as is, but swap around a few.

So maybe more like

1 Participating Democracy
2 Feudal Technocracy
3 Representative Democracy
4 Self Perpetuating Oligarchy
5 Corporate
6 Balkanization
7 Captive Government/Colony

While doing this, it occurs to me that messing with this part of the UWP gen also affects the percentage of government type you are going to get, and to what extent each population level engenders X type of government. Not a casual thing especially if one leans to simulationist.

 

[Kilgs]

The LL thing came up for me too. At this point, I either assign it based on how my vision of the world is coming out. Or use it as a starting point and adjust accordingly.

In addition, I've been incorporating the DGP specific LL's and, as mentioned above, personal law levels as well.

It's hard to remember but I often tell myself... "random generation mechanic is an AID to the GM." It is not concrete.

 

[Timerover51]

The LL thing came up for me too. At this point, I either assign it based on how my vision of the world is coming out. Or use it as a starting point and adjust accordingly.

In addition, I've been incorporating the DGP specific LL's and, as mentioned above, personal law levels as well.

It's hard to remember but I often tell myself... "random generation mechanic is an AID to the GM." It is not concrete.

Bravo!!!

 

[whulorigan]

In addition, I've been incorporating the DGP specific LL's . . .

I have found the MgT (1st ed.) specific Law Levels table in the Core Rules to be a little more useful at the PC-level than the DGP ones, but they are both useful.