How many tankers and tenders per fleet?

[AnotherDilbert]

The version that is used in MgT Great Rift - which is detailed in MgT HG2e - can recharge even in an empty hex.

I have no idea what canon says about Collectors in the Imperium, IMTU no major empire knows about collectors.

The only disadvantage appears to be charging time - if you need to break off by jumping you want a fusion or antimatter powered jump drive.

I could see ships with 'duel fuel' jump drives - a collector powered drive for strategic movement and a hydrogen fuel powered drive for combat circumstances.

Agreed, that would be the reasonable build.

 

[McPerth]

Something I have wondered since MgT and T5 changed the way collectors work.

The original Annic Nova version required 1-6 weeks depending on star type and distance from the star to recharge.

The version that is used in MgT Great Rift - which is detailed in MgT HG2e - can recharge even in an empty hex.

The only disadvantage appears to be charging time - if you need to break off by jumping you want a fusion or antimatter powered jump drive.

I could see ships with 'duel fuel' jump drives - a collector powered drive for strategic movement and a hydrogen fuel powered drive for combat circumstances.

If I were the Zhodani planning the FFW I would have ordered the production of many collector based fleet tenders to move my invasion fleets through empty hexes to jumping off points in systems close to important Imperial targets.

If this is allowed at TLs under 17, this changes OTU paradigm as much as the reduced fuel in MT...

The islands are no more an isolated cluster if so, and the rifts are no longer barriers, just to give you two examples, so changing the whole OTU history (or at leat leaving it senseless)....

 

[whulorigan]

If this is allowed at TLs under 17, this changes OTU paradigm as much as the reduced fuel in MT...

The islands are no more an isolated cluster if so, and the rifts are no longer barriers, just to give you two examples, so changing the whole OTU history (or at leat leaving it senseless)....

In T5, a "C-1" Collector has a "Standard" TL of 14 (i.e. it can support Jump-1). A "Prototype C-4" collector (to support Jump-4) could be built at TL-15.
In MgT HG2e, a Collector of any rating is available at TL-14, with larger collectors for larger Jump-# support.

Note that being available at TL-14 does not necessarily mean that Imperial Science has discovered it; it maybe a paradigm-shift technology like Jump Drive.

 

[mike wightman]

If this is allowed at TLs under 17, this changes OTU paradigm as much as the reduced fuel in MT...

Yes it is allowed, it is in MgT Hg2e and MgT Great Rift.

The islands are no more an isolated cluster if so, and the rifts are no longer barriers, just to give you two examples, so changing the whole OTU history (or at leat leaving it senseless)....

You need to get updated on the state of the OTU if MgT stuff is canonical.

There is another type of rift crossing ship that uses the reduced fuel buffs that high TL components can get in MgT HG2e

 

[whartung]

If we cross a 6 Pc rift into enemy territory we are permanently stuck on the other side of the rift, unless we bring the tankers. Otherwise we don't need the tankers?

If it's it truly a rift jump, they can refuel upon arrival and jump back to meet the tankers half way again.

There is no way to patrol every single gas giant in force. Since gas giants are generally so distant by M-drive they are basically their own systems. Hence you can nearly always find a GG to refuel from at standard density.

An attacking force has to be pretty confident that it can reduce whatever is waiting at their destination GG, or they shouldn't be making the trip in the first place.

Multiple GGs in a destination system make defending them that much more difficult, since the attackers get to pick.

A fuel dump solves the return, without trying to coördinate separate fleets months apart.

And there have been references of deep space fuel caches across the Rift before. There's no reason that strategic caches couldn't be pre-placed as part of an overall war/defense plan along potential routes of attack. Overall, a deep space fuel cache is pretty cheap. It just takes time to set up.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Yes it is allowed, it is in MgT Hg2e and MgT Great Rift.

Lots of stuff are in the rules that are explicitly not in the Imperium setting.

The collector ships in Great Rift, are they standard Imperial tech, experimental new tech, or some other faction?

There is another type of rift crossing ship that uses the reduced fuel buffs that high TL components can get in MgT HG2e

Enough fuel for ~8 Pc has been possible since CT, so that is no major issue.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

If it's it truly a rift jump, they can refuel upon arrival and jump back to meet the tankers half way again.

Quite, but that is still suffers the coördination problem. If the tankers are destroyed or delayed the raiders stuck in interstellar space.

An attacking force has to be pretty confident that it can reduce whatever is waiting at their destination GG, or they shouldn't be making the trip in the first place.

Jump in a day or two out, go to another GG if the original target is too heavily defended. Better yet, jump only 2 Pc so that you have some fuel left.

Multiple GGs in a destination system make defending them that much more difficult, since the attackers get to pick.

Quite, there is little idea to defend anything but the main location, except light screening forces to interdict enemy couriers and supply, otherwise the defender invites being defeated in detail.

And there have been references of deep space fuel caches across the Rift before. There's no reason that strategic caches couldn't be pre-placed as part of an overall war/defense plan along potential routes of attack. Overall, a deep space fuel cache is pretty cheap. It just takes time to set up.

Quite, very cheap.

 

[McPerth]

In T5, a "C-1" Collector has a "Standard" TL of 14 (i.e. it can support Jump-1). A "Prototype C-4" collector (to support Jump-4) could be built at TL-15.
In MgT HG2e, a Collector of any rating is available at TL-14, with larger collectors for larger Jump-# support.

TY for the info

Note that being available at TL-14 does not necessarily mean that Imperial Science has discovered it; it maybe a paradigm-shift technology like Jump Drive.

An elegant solution

Enough fuel for ~8 Pc has been possible since CT, so that is no major issue.

Yes, but they will only be useful as courriers, as they have no space for any cargo (nor for much maneuver), with 80% of the ship dedicated to fuel tanks.

In MT they were more easy to build, as J4 needed only 25% of the ship for fuel (so, 2J4 ships needed "only" 50% of the ship's volume, as a J5 ship in other versions, with slightly smaller jump drives than a J5 ship, BTW)...

 

[mike wightman]

There are certain empty hex locations in the Spinward Marches that are just crying out for an Imperial Naval base or two...

 

[flykiller]

There are certain empty hex locations in the Spinward Marches that are just crying out for an Imperial Naval base or two...

or zhodani ....

which hexes would you have in mind?

 

[McPerth]

There are certain empty hex locations in the Spinward Marches that are just crying out for an Imperial Naval base or two...

or zhodani ....

which hexes would you have in mind?

Fact is that probably both sides wil be interested in the same hexes for this.

If so, I guess the possibilities of finding each other are slim, despite being in the same system, as they represent 1 pc wide and there's not the reference a system means...

 

[Condottiere]

Don't Collectors depreciate alarmingly fast?

 

[Matt123]

Really interesting discussion and I apoligize if my skim reading missed stuff and makes my observations redundant!

In TCS my tanker squadrons took up close to a third of my budget. They served two primary purposes. A. to service scouts and lines of communication (fairly cheap to do). B. to allow recovery of my fleet assets if the defending force was too large.

While on the surface I lost firepower, strategically I could conduct raids deemed too risky without current and accurate intel which in any case would be weeks or months out of date. Fleets dieing slowly in the outer system, unable to fight their way to a fuel source is a pretty ignominious end to your glorious empire.

The military refers to it IIRC as "preservation of force".

 

[flykiller]

B. to allow recovery of my fleet assets if the defending force was too large.

good strategic thought. did you ever game this out?

 

[Matt123]

Yep, a couple of times. Never to "completion" though. The game tends to fade away once people make an unlucky call and find getting their fleet back is too difficult. Either that or they order a suicide attack.

It's a strategic balancing act though, the other part of the equation is using monitors and battle riders to defend your home from Alpha strikes. My fleets were roughly one third offensive (jump capable), one third defensive (not jump capable), one third Tender/Tankers. Lots of fighters, they are in their prime at TL12.

I never got this far, but my Fleet Tankers were equipped with dismountable tanks. A short stay in the yards and they could become unarmed Fleet Tenders and start moving Battle Riders closer to the front. That would have been a way down the track though. Meantime my strategy was to avoid home systems and defeat enemy fleets in detail, inflict total loses while ideally only taking repairable damage.

 

[aramis]

Very few ships carry fuel shuttles because they are very inefficient. Warships (or Traders) certainly cannot afford such luxuries. It is vastly cheaper to make the warships streamlined, than to rely on external tankers or fuel shuttles.

Most warships are at least partially streamlined and have purifiers, so can and will skim themselves. Being immobilised by the lack of vulnerable tankers is completely unacceptable.

Tankers are not necessary for normal operations, but an extra capability to pass otherwise impassable gaps.

And yet, the one detailed capital ship has mutiple. See Sup 5...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

And yet, the one detailed capital ship has mutiple. See Sup 5...

With bad computer, agility, and armour ratings the Azhanti High Lightning is a commerce raider, not a warship. Any semi-competent warship can dispatch it in short order.

Note that it can refuel itself, it is just so badly designed that it breaks while doing it. Rather than fixing it, they bolted on a few slow shuttles that slows down strategic movement speed, the only advantage the class had.

Despite the propaganda the IN seems quite eager to pawn them off to the Scouts or any ally that would accept them...


The more recent Element-class family of cruisers does not seem to suffer any problems with refuelling.

 

[whartung]

Quite, but that is still suffers the coördination problem. If the tankers are destroyed or delayed the raiders stuck in interstellar space.

The assumption was that the tankers were supplying from friendly lines.

Jump in a day or two out, go to another GG if the original target is too heavily defended. Better yet, jump only 2 Pc so that you have some fuel left.

The basic premise is that the GGs are far enough away from each other to where sub-light travel is not worth the time. But, also, second, if sub-light travel is worth the time for your fleet, then it's worth the time for the defenders to react. The GG jump is assumed to essentially be a surprise attack on the facility, with "no time" for the defenders to reposition their forces.

So, yea, it's an intelligence game.

If you jump in with fuel remaining, you still need someplace to jump back too. If you J2 in with a J3 setup, then you can only J1 back out.

Quite, there is little idea to defend anything but the main location, except light screening forces to interdict enemy couriers and supply, otherwise the defender invites being defeated in detail.

The problem with this, naturally, is that then your borders are quite porous. If you don't defend the GGs, the raiding fleet refuels and just passes on by to the creamy soft center. Which essentially means you need to mount defense in depth and simply go on the assumption that there's little you can do about an attacking fleet that doesn't care to engage you.

This is also argued that things like SDB are cheap but effective enough to deter a raiding force of higher tonnage, making the defense "cheaper". But I honestly don't know how true that is. Hard to imagine anything deep in the gravity well of a GG isn't suffering from much of the same problems the attackers would be.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The assumption was that the tankers were supplying from friendly lines.

No plan survives contact with the enemy.

Any passing enemy raiding force might destroy them.

If you want to be sure to be able to retreat the same way you came you basically have to take the tankers with you. And then you have the constant problem of protecting the tankers.

The basic premise is that the GGs are far enough away from each other to where sub-light travel is not worth the time. But, also, second, if sub-light travel is worth the time for your fleet, then it's worth the time for the defenders to react. The GG jump is assumed to essentially be a surprise attack on the facility, with "no time" for the defenders to reposition their forces.

So, yea, it's an intelligence game.

If you are a day or two away from the GG you can reach the next GG over faster than the defending force. If you jumped a scout next to each GG you know what defences there are.

Why commit the intruding fleet without a peek at the defending force?

You simply cannot defend several possible refuelling points in every system. If you try you will divide you fleet into small penny packets that are easily defeated in detail. If you place one cruiser by every refuelling point, all you get is a dead cruiser when a raiding force passes by.

If you jump in with fuel remaining, you still need someplace to jump back too. If you J2 in with a J3 setup, then you can only J1 back out.

That is a main advantage of J-4 ships.

Even with J-1 you can jump out to any other refuelling point in this or any adjacent system. The likelihood of finding a substantial force there too is probably small.

The problem with this, naturally, is that then your borders are quite porous. If you don't defend the GGs, the raiding fleet refuels and just passes on by to the creamy soft center. Which essentially means you need to mount defense in depth and simply go on the assumption that there's little you can do about an attacking fleet that doesn't care to engage you.

Agreed, but raiders have their own problems. A month or two into enemy territory means months away from a shipyard that you will need after every engagement.

This is also argued that things like SDB are cheap but effective enough to deter a raiding force of higher tonnage, making the defense "cheaper". But I honestly don't know how true that is. Hard to imagine anything deep in the gravity well of a GG isn't suffering from much of the same problems the attackers would be.

Why would warships be much better just because you call them SDBs? Large SDBs are just demounted battle-riders.

 

[flykiller]

Yep, a couple of times.

huh. have to re-think lighters then. 'course it depends on ruleset too, I always assume (heavily modified) book 5 / tech 15 for an imperial fleet.

Never to "completion" though. The game tends to fade away once people make an unlucky call and find getting their fleet back is too difficult. Either that or they order a suicide attack.

heh. sounds like completion to me ....