Big Naval Ships in the Traveller Universe

[AnotherDilbert]

Again we don't read the same here...

Very well, call it Rule 0 if you like.

Just like Darrian was once TL-16, but is now TL-12, but we call it TL-16 because it's cool, we can call Regina TL-10 (or TL-12) but with a TL-15 shipyard. It's an override of the UWP, just as LBB3 describes.

Doesn't affect the general rule.

 

[McPerth]

All posts about the Wasp design have been moved to this thread to aovid monopolizing this one

 

[robject]

It's an inconsistency between LBB2 and all other rule sets.
LBB2: Any ship can be built by any starport type A, TLs be damned.
LBB5: A starport is limited to world TL.

I'll invoke "Rule M" to handwave this one.

* ACS are built with off-the shelf components; the shipyard just smacks them together like LEGOs. (Book 2)
* BCS are custom-built, and so the shipyard's TL is important. (High Guard)

---

Rule M: Marc decided to settle it in this manner.

 

[McPerth]

LBB2: Any ship can be built by any starport type A, TLs be damned.

IIRC, rules say "any kind of ship", not "any ship".

As I read it, "any kind of ship" refers to the thre kinds of ships we have: starships, spaceships and small crafts...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

* ACS are built with off-the shelf components; the shipyard just smacks them together like LEGOs. (Book 2)
* BCS are custom-built, and so the shipyard's TL is important. (High Guard)

Agreed, but no need for handwaves, that is what LBB5 says.

LBB5'80, p18:
The ship design and construction system given in Book 2 must be considered to be a standard system for providing ships using off-the-shelf components. It is not superceded by any system given in this book; instead this book presents a system for construction of very large vessels, and includes provisions for use of the system with smaller ships.

And it has nothing really to do with size, you can just as well build a 10 Dt custom craft as a 1 000 000 Dt custom ship. The standard component 5 000 Dt ship isn't really an ACS...


So, why don't we all build more capable custom craft? The LBB2 standard ships are highly rebated, so are much cheaper:

SC-11222R1-000000-00000-0       MCr 42,3         100 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=1
batteries                                           TL=11
                   Pass=3 Cargo=15 Fuel=22 EP=2 Agility=2

Spoiler: design sheet

Single Occupancy                                   15        52,7
                                     USP    #     Dton       Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             1          100           
Configuration       Needle/Wedge       1                     12 
Scoops              Streamlined                               0,1
                                                                
Jump Drive                             2    1       3        12 
Manoeuvre D                            2    1       5         3,5
Power Plant                            2    1       6        18 
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-2, 4 weeks            2      22           
Purifier                                    1       7         0,0
                                                                
Bridge                                      1      20         0,5
Computer            m/1bis             R    1       1         4 
                                                                
Staterooms                                  4      16         2 
                                                                
Cargo                                              15           
                                                                
Empty hardpoint                             1       1           
                                                                
Air/raft            4 Dton                  1       4         0,6
                                                                
Nominal Cost        MCr 52,73            Sum:      15        52,7
Class Cost          MCr 10,95           Valid      ≥0          ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 42,30

LBB2, same legs, a little less free space, much cheaper:

SC-11222R1-000000-00000-0       MCr 29,5         100 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=1
batteries                                            TL=9
                    Pass=3 Cargo=3 Fuel=40 EP=2 Agility=2

Spoiler: design sheet

Single Occupancy    LBB2 design                     3        32,7
                                     USP    #     Dton       Cost
Hull, Streamlined      100 Dt          1          100           
Configuration       Needle/Wedge       1                      3 
Scoops              Streamlined                                 

                                                                
Jump Drive          A                  2    1      10        10 
Manoeuvre D         A                  2    1       1         4 
Power Plant         A                  2    1       4         8 
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-2, 4 weeks            2      40           
                                                                
Bridge                                      1      20         0,5
Computer            m/1bis             R    1       1         4 
                                                                
Staterooms                                  4      16         2 
                                                                
Cargo                                               3           
                                                                
Empty hardpoint                             1       1         0,6
                                                                
Air/raft            4 Dton                  1       4         0,6
                                                                
Nominal Cost        MCr 32,70            Sum:       3        32,7
Class Cost          MCr  3,53           Valid      ≥0          ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 29,49

 

[AnotherDilbert]

IIRC, rules say "any kind of ship", not "any ship".

As I read it, "any kind of ship" refers to the threww kinds of ships we have: starships, spaceships and small crafts...

Possibly, but there is nothing in LBB1-3 that limits shipyards to local TL. No LBB2 ship description even bothers to note a TL.

LBB2 ships don't have TLs, they are built using standard modular components, that might be imported if needed.


This is the only explicit limit to spacecraft construction in LBB1-3:

LBB2'81, p12:
Any class A starport has a shipyard which can build any kind of ship, including a starship with jump drives; any class B starport can build a small craft and ships which do not have jump drives.

 

[Spinward Flow]

This is the only explicit limit to spacecraft construction in LBB1-3:

Convenient omission of relevant details you've got going on there.
Can anyone play that game the way you do?

LBB3.81, p14-15:

LBB2.81, p22:

Hmmm.

This is the only explicit limit to spacecraft construction in LBB1-3:

LBB2'81, p12:
Any class A starport has a shipyard which can build any kind of ship, including a starship with jump drives; any class B starport can build a small craft and ships which do not have jump drives.

 

[Marcatlas]

Convenient omission of relevant details you've got going on there.
Can anyone play that game the way you do?

LBB3.81, p14-15:

LBB2.81, p22:

Hmmm.

Right. The Rule is the TL denotes what can be manufactured on that planet. Ships are something manufactured. Ipso facto

 

[Rupert]

I meant to post this some hours ago, but missed the post button it seems. Now ninjaed...

Well, there are the TL requirements for drives, computers, and weapons in Book 3 (Book 2 as well for computers). Sure, they can be imported, assuming there's somewhere to import them from. It's a referee call, and it would be quite reasonable for the referee to charge extra for imported components (or just say 'No').

They have the interesting effect of making large high performance ships TL capped, rather than high performance in general. Of course in the Official TU jump distances are TL capped regardless, but that's a setting limit, not a limit in the Books 1-3 themselves. It also puts a cap on how big ships can be and still move, by TL.

 

[Marcatlas]

Well, there are the TL requirements for drives, computers, and weapons in Book 3 (Book 2 as well for computers). Sure, they can be imported, assuming there's somewhere to import them from. It's a referee call, and it would be quite reasonable for the referee to charge extra for imported components (or just say 'No').

They have the interesting effect of making large high performance ships TL capped, rather than high performance in general. Of course in the Official TU jump

That could be done for any manufactured item. But that would just toss the rule out the window about TL and local manufacturing capability.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Convenient omission of relevant details you've got going on there.

Quite, we both omitted:

LBB3'81, p8:
The technological level is used in conjunction with the technological level table to determine the general quality and capability of local industry. The tables indicate the general types or categories of goods in general use on the world. In most cases, such goods are the best which may be produced locally, although better goods may be imported by local organizations or businesses when a specific need is felt.

If you feel the need for a Z-drive, you import it.


LBB5 explicitly limited you to local TL, LBB2 didn't.

 

[McPerth]

Possibly, but there is nothing in LBB1-3 that limits shipyards to local TL. No LBB2 ship description even bothers to note a TL.

Even so, it's worth to point, as when you try to build a HG design this applies, even in drives are LBB2 ones...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Even so, it's worth to point, as when you try to build a HG design this applies, even in drives are LBB2 ones...

Sure, except for LBB2 drives, of course.

 

[McPerth]

That could be done for any manufactured item. But that would just toss the rule out the window about TL and local manufacturing capability.

The problem is the literature (and this includes the modules) don't support it. In Kinunir a TL15 ship is being built in a TL 10 planet...

And, as I already said, 5 TLs difference would be as from rennaisence (or even late middle ages) to nowdays... Try to ask Da Vinci (even being a genius) to mount an F35, even if you give him all the components...

 

[McPerth]

Sure, except for LBB2 drives, of course.

Wrong, included LBB2 drives, as they are components of a LBB5 design, and so use LBB5 rules.

When you use those LBB2 drives is because LBB5 rules allow you too, so they become a LBB5 component.

 

[Marcatlas]

Quite, we both omitted:

If you feel the need for a Z-drive, you import it.

Right, but you can't use them to manufacturer anything with them. You can import a whole air/raft onto a TL 6 planet but you cannot import the higher TL individual parts to BUILD an air/raft on a TL6 planet.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Wrong, included LBB2 drives, as they are components of a LBB5 design, and so use LBB5 rules.

And I have invoked a published example to support my position:
https://www.travellerrpg.com/threads/wasp-ship-eurisko-controversy.44313/post-668269

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Right, but you can't use them to manufacturer anything with them.

Why?

 

[McPerth]

And I have invoked a published example to support my position:

As per published examples, I could show you some where 30 kdtons BRs carried 300 kdtons of fuel for distribution (in FSotSI)...

Or that a 300 dton ship may have 4 hardpoints (does the Gazelle sound familiar to you?)

As the Wasp discussion ended so badly as to force me to close it, I cannot answer you anything I didn't already say there to answer you, and retaking the discussion here would be against forum rules (that's what happens when people cannot keep civil, sorry)

 

[atpollard]

So, why don't we all build more capable custom craft? The LBB2 standard ships are highly rebated, so are much cheaper:

While I have no interest in wading into the fight over TL and ship construction (IMTU the TL of a world means the TL of local manufacture ... non-binding on the OTU which is non-binding on me) ...
I do have a simple HOUSE RULE* that goes a LONG way towards fixing many issues with the LBB5 vs LBB2 ship costs.

LBB5 Power Plant Costs are "Per EP" not "Per dTon".

This means all LBB5 ships no longer NEED to be TL 15 to avoid the draconian cost penalty ... higher TL just grants smaller Power Plants for the same Cost and Output. It places the LBB2 and LBB5 ships within spitting distance of being the same price for similar ACS craft.

*I did not want anyone to whine that was not RAW ... so I made it as clear as I possibly could!