CT Only: Multi jump1 ships

[McPerth]

I was thinking of (MT IE, p90):

Only applies to MT, of course.

This same sentence appears in TTB (page 53), Ss, if this is understood as empty hexes counting as destination, it would apply to CT too...

Nonetheless, the fact the definition o passages (as I quoted above) talks about "between one world and the next world visited by the starship" seems to point the other way...

 

[Spinward Flow]

Under the rules as written they don't, because the rules as written for CT do not mention calibration points, empty hex jumps or any such things.

Correct ... because destinations are worlds (read: ports of call) not breakout points.

The rules as written allow for jump travel from world to world, everything after that we make up.

The entire Traveller universe (OTU or YTU) are made up.

Empty hex jumps or whatever are a setting rather than a rules as written occurrence

Destination worlds are setting dependent too ... rather than a rules written occurrence.
Try harder.

don't forget that the setting doesn't allow for empty hex jumps until the ability to do so is discovered sometime during the era detailed in Dark Nebula.

That's because LBB2.77 jump drives consumed all jump fuel regardless of jump number (so Jump-1 in a Scout/Courier still consumed 20 tons of fuel, for example).
LBB5.79 added the Jump Governor allowing drives to consume fuel at the 10% per jump number used, rather than at a rate of 10% per jump number of the drive (regardless of parsecs traversed).
LBB5.80 dispensed with the Jump Governor entirely and made the 10% per jump number used the standard.
LBB2.81 followed suit and eliminated the need for the Jump Governor at all by standardizing on the 10% per jump number used value.

Once that was done, a Scout/Courier could jump 1 parsec into deep space and still have enough fuel to jump 1 parsec back to its point of origin. The "fix" was better rules evolution ... kind of like how Annic Nova's double jump drive scheme doesn't make sense once the rules for jumps get updated.

That said empty hex jumps are definitely a thing

If they weren't ... there are vast entire swaths of Vilis, Lanth, Lunion and Aramis subsectors that be completely inaccessible under any circumstances to Jump-1 starships. Entire settings such as the J-5 Trade Route across the Great Rift and the Distant Fringe become "impossible" because empty hex jumps are needed to cross the rifts of vast empty open space.

I even think that port of call makes sense

Progress!

but in answer to AD's roll for every available destination, good luck with your interpretation if a world is on a jump 1 main (which shows the obvious fallacy of this interpretation).

What fallacy?

Let's take Regina/Regina/Spinward Marches as an easy test case.

Jump-1 = 3 possible destination worlds, roll cargo waiting to be transported to all 3

Jump-2 = 10 possible destination worlds, roll cargo waiting to be transported to all 10 (2 Amber, 1 Red)

Jump-3 = 14 possible destination worlds, roll cargo waiting to be transported to all 14 (4 Amber, 1 Red)

Jump-4 = 23 possible destination worlds, roll cargo waiting to be transported to all 23 (6 Amber, 3 Red)

Jump-5 = 23 possible destination worlds, roll cargo waiting to be transported to all 31 (7 Amber, 4 Red)

Jump-6 = 46 possible destination worlds, roll cargo waiting to be transported to all 46 (8 Amber, 5 Red)

Higher jump numbers simply mean there's more cargo available to you wanting to go to more places.
That means that as a captain you get to "pick and choose" where you want to go next in ways that help ensure you've got a full manifest every single time.

It's a LOT more dice rolling for the Referee to deal with as the jump numbers increase, because there's a lot more destinations within range. As a matter of Referee logistics, I would simply roll dice to determine how many major/minor/incidental cargo lots are waiting go to each destination, use that as the "first pass cull" for the Player(s) and then if they want to know about specific options (destination X vs Y vs Z) then I'd start rolling the specific tonnages for the cargo lots for those destinations.

 

[mike wightman]

It's absurd because you have to roll for every cargo available to every world on the jump 1 main under AD's interpretation - Occam's razor this interpretation is false.
Your interpretation (which is the same as mine by the way) is the correct one I think because you only roll for cargos to adjacent worlds, not every world on the jump 1 main.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I even think that port of call makes sense - but in answer to AD's roll for every available destination, good luck with your interpretation if a world is on a jump 1 main 9which shows the obvious fallacy of this interpretation).

Has anyone ever done that for a high jump ship?

Example: You have a Sub Liner (J-3) located at Pirema at the centre of the map above. You have 14 possible destinations within J-3. Would you roll for all cargo types for all the 14 destinations, and then the sizes of potentially a few hundred cargoes? I can safely say I have never ever done such a ridiculous thing.

A reasonable number of die rolls is sadly not guaranteed by the system.

I would of course only roll dice that the players are interested in, potential destinations that they actually consider going to.

Edit: I mean this map, published by Spinward Flow above:

 

[AnotherDilbert]

This same sentence appears in TTB (page 53), Ss, if this is understood as empty hexes counting as destination, it would apply to CT too...

I didn't see that in TTB, I agree that would make CT and MT identical in this aspect.

Nonetheless, the fact the definition o passages (as I quoted above) talks about "between one world and the next world visited by the starship" seems to point the other way...

That seems reasonable.

But then it says you can carry cargo for a destination several ports of call later, which is not allowed by the basic procedure in LBB2.

I suspect we are trying to find an exact, definite meaning where none was ever intended...

 

[Spinward Flow]

Has anyone ever done that for a high jump ship?

Probably not.
The sheer quantity of dice rolling and table lookup and map referencing (population of origin and destination, relative tech levels, DMs, etc.) rapidly becomes a prohibitive chore that would slow down gameplay in a tabletop setting with pencils, paper, dice and a calculator (if you do them ALL for a complete readout).

With computer programming and online tools though ...

Speaking of which, it would be great to have an online tool associated with TravellerMap (TravellerTradeMap?) that computes the quantities of cargo lots (not their tonnages, just how many lots of major/minor/incidental cargo) are available outbound from the current location to each of the worlds within (define parsec limit) range using LBB2.81 rules for generating cargo lot quantities (3 major, 5 minor, 1 incidental, for example). From that initial readout of availability, the Players can then narrow down their list of where they want to go next so you don't have to roll dice for ALL of the cargo waiting to leave port, just the destinations that are of interest.

But then it says you can carry cargo for a destination several ports of call later, which is not allowed by the basic procedure in LBB2.

By basic procedure out of LBB2 ... no.
But LBB2 offers the perfect workaround for exactly this situation (if you're paying attention and know what you're looking at).

Interstellar Charters!
With an interstellar charter, a ship can be charted to transport cargo/passengers long distances beyond the ship's jump/fuel capacity.

Say that someone wanted to buy transport from Regina/Regina to Lunion/Lunion in the Spinward Marches and for whatever reason they want to do so aboard a Jump-1 starship (maybe a Type-Y Yacht or whatever). That's going to be a 22J1 trip!

In order to do that, they would basically need to charter the ENTIRE SHIP for the transport.
Interstellar charters basically buy up the entirety of a ship's revenue capacity at 90% of the standard price (LBB2.81, p9) for the duration, measured in 2 week blocks (round fractions up).

22 jumps at 10 days per jump (jump space time plus maneuvering to refuel, drive maintenance, replenish life support, etc.) would mean about 220 days.
220 days / 14 = 15.7 ... round up to 16 blocks of 2 weeks worth of time under charter.



So the "local" short haul cargo stuff uses the basic system, but longer range stuff (take this TL=15 drive part from Glisten/Glisten to Iderati/Five Sisters and this is a rush job to get there as fast as you can!) beyond the immediate range limit of the starship falls under the Interstellar Charter rules quite conveniently. Note that interstellar charters may wind up using only a portion of the ship's revenue generation capacity, leaving the rest free for booking along the route.

So if your ship is chartered to carry (say...) 20 tons of TL=15 drive parts from Glisten/Glisten to Iderati/Five Sisters, and there's going to be a Naval Engineer coming along for the ride (to ensure the drive parts don't get "mislaid" or otherwise go missing along the way) ... that's only 20 tons and 1 high passenger stateroom (plus the services of 1 steward) that the ship needs to expend on that charter along whatever path the ship takes to complete the route. Any remaining passenger and cargo capacity left unused can still be booked by other parties for transport along the way, just like normal.

In other words, the Interstellar Charter pays for a ship to "go somewhere with stuff" but doesn't necessary lock out the ship from being able to generate additional revenue from passengers and cargo along the way. However, if the Interstellar Charter "books the ship solid" with a full load of passengers and cargo for the entire trip, it's up to the captain to decide whether or not being fully booked THAT WAY for the entire journey is worth their time and profit margin.

Needless to say, such charters can easily be used as Adventure Hooks and as ways to encounter Patrons.

The payment covers shipment in the cargo hold from the current location to the starship's next port of call.

Probably the clearest reference, and seems to show you are right, and Mike and myself (among many others) were wrong.

Found a CT citation even more explicit and definitive, allowing for no wiggle room of interpretation.

I give you ... LBB2.81, p9:

TRADE CUSTOMS
Goods taken on in orbit are delivered when placed in orbit around the destination. Goods taken on on a planetary surface are delivered when off-loaded on the surface of the destination. This custom applies to cargo, passengers, and mail.

I defy anyone to come up with any interpretations other than port of call to port of call with those trade customs regulations.
It's not per jump.
It's not per parsec.
It's port of call to port of call.

Note that essentially the same language is used on LBB2.77, p8 (and yes, I checked so you won't have to!).



Now, where's my decoration/promotion/skill up for successfully surviving Rules Lawyer Wars™?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Found a CT citation even more explicit and definitive, allowing for no wiggle room of interpretation.

I give you ... LBB2.81, p9:

TRADE CUSTOMS
Goods taken on in orbit are delivered when placed in orbit around the destination. Goods taken on on a planetary surface are delivered when off-loaded on the surface of the destination. This custom applies to cargo, passengers, and mail.

I defy anyone to come up with any interpretations other than port of call to port of call with those trade customs regulations.
It's not per jump.
It's not per parsec.
It's port of call to port of call.

Note that essentially the same language is used on LBB2.77, p8 (and yes, I checked so you won't have to!).

Sorry, it does not say anything about how it is payed for, only where it is off-loaded.

I don't think anyone is suggesting the cargo is off-loaded short of the final destination, say in clear interstellar space in an empty hex?

 

[whartung]

Higher jump numbers simply mean there's more cargo available to you wanting to go to more places.
That means that as a captain you get to "pick and choose" where you want to go next in ways that help ensure you've got a full manifest every single time.

This is for standard cargo at 1000cr/ton/destination. 46 cargo combinations, at 1000cr/ton each. The 46 destinations don't impact speculative trade which is 1 roll per week, save that it gives you more potential destinations to get a good deal for selling a specific cargo.

Interstellar Charters!
With an interstellar charter, a ship can be charted to transport cargo/passengers long distances beyond the ship's jump/fuel capacity.

Charters are referee prerogative. There's no guarantee that any are available for you to choose to pick or not.

 

[Spinward Flow]

I don't think anyone is suggesting the cargo is off-loaded short of the final destination, say in clear interstellar space in an empty hex?

Grizzled Old Spacer: "I've got this really great scam that I've been working for the past 40 years. I pick up a load of cargo in orbit, jump into deep space and then shove the cargo out of the hold into the hard vacuum between the stars."

Newb Spacer: "Um ... okay? How does ditching your cargo in deep space constitute a scam?"

Grizzled Old Spacer: "Simple. After I've spaced the cargo, I maneuver the ship to put it back into the cargo hold and then jump to my final destination where I deliver the cargo in orbit. That way I've technically delivered the cargo twice, once at the halfway point and the second time at the end of the run, so I get paid for two shipments that are all in space instead of just one."

Newb Spacer: "Uh ... I don't think-"

Port Authority Security: "You're right, that does sound like a scam. Why don't you come with us back to the detention center and tell us all about how you've been defrauding your customers for this long without getting caught before?"

Grizzled Old Spacer: "But the rules clearly state-"

Port Authority Security: {dangles handcuffs in front of Grizzled Old Spacer's face}

Grizzled Old Spacer: "You're not going to just let this one slide, are you?"

Port Authority Security: "Nope."

 

[coliver988]

Speaking of which, it would be great to have an online tool associated with TravellerMap (TravellerTradeMap?) that computes the quantities of cargo lots (not their tonnages, just how many lots of major/minor/incidental cargo) are available outbound from the current location to each of the worlds within (define parsec limit) range using LBB2.81 rules for generating cargo lot quantities (3 major, 5 minor, 1 incidental, for example). From that initial readout of availability, the Players can then narrow down their list of where they want to go next so you don't have to roll dice for ALL of the cargo waiting to leave port, just the destinations that are of interest.

I actually did that in a Windows program a decade or more ago, using the TravellerMap API (and it calculated only based on jump number, so if you could jump 2 times, that was not accounted for. It was how I interpreted the rules at the time). Source code (ancient and one of these days I may get back to it) is available in my git repo if you want to poke at some ugly code.

See https://github.com/COliver988/Traveller it is all under the MIT license so use what you want. You may notice there were several versions, and I may be missing the original that was the entire reason for my blog to begin with. Someone on COTI did fork the code & did more work on it.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Charters are referee prerogative. There's no guarantee that any are available for you to choose to pick or not.

I'm sure there's a lucrative market for chartering XBoats.

 

[Spinward Flow]

I'm sure there's a lucrative market for chartering XBoats.

Considering that XBoats have 1 stateroom for a middle passenger (no Steward) and 1 ton for cargo, I would expect that any use of XBoats for transport duties would require pre-clearance with the IISS for scheduling. If a passenger is paying for a chartered ride along to the destination, it's going to be a Tender/Xboat/Tender pickup and drop off, with the passenger needing to arrange transport from the Tender at the destination star system.

 

[infojunky]

Now y’all reframe all of that in the terms I stated at the start. It really looks like the starter for a TL9/10 sorta game.

 

[McPerth]

But then it says you can carry cargo for a destination several ports of call later, which is not allowed by the basic procedure in LBB2.

I would not say its not allowed, just no provision is made if you're the owner of the ship, as all freight you find is to the next port of call (at least as tables are, though there may be an owner needing to take his cargo more than one port of call away, at the referee's whim).

But if you are the one looking for a freighter to move your cargo, this makes sense.

Imagine you have to move it 2 parsecs away along a main from a low traffic world. Only a free trader is available that goes i nthe general direction you want (it would leave you at 1 parsec of your final destination). You can try to convince the owner to carry you there through the port of call in between to your destination, so carrying it several ports of call (if your lot is large enough, it can be worth for the ship's captain to accept it, knowing hhis next jump will have at least your freight to carry, and so its income), instead of wait hoping a far trader that can take you there on a single jump appears (as it may well not appear for several weeks).

 

[Grav_Moped]

Considering that XBoats have 1 stateroom for a middle passenger (no Steward) and 1 ton for cargo, I would expect that any use of XBoats for transport duties would require pre-clearance with the IISS for scheduling. If a passenger is paying for a chartered ride along to the destination, it's going to be a Tender/Xboat/Tender pickup and drop off, with the passenger needing to arrange transport from the Tender at the destination star system.

I assume you took this in the sense I meant it (unmitigated sarcasm). Charter rates, RAW for an XBoat, are 90% of the revenue they'd get from one stateroom and one ton of cargo. Heck of a bargain for that J4 range!

Which is to say the RAW charter rates are -- well, let's just say they're not generally applicable, but only approximate and for only some ships.

 

[McPerth]

Returning to the OP:

I know this idea has come up before, but I was thinking have there been any ships designed with Jump1 with fuel for multiple jumps?

It is in the Traveller Adventure as temp fix, but the idea makes for a interesting setting as well.

I personally find a fuel tank for mulitple jumps to be a waste. If you so desire, just have a cargo hold able to be so used with collapsible tanks, and you will have the same capability of doing more tha none jump, while being able tu use it as cargo hold when that's not needed.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Charter rates, RAW for an XBoat, are 90% of the revenue they'd get from one stateroom and one ton of cargo. Heck of a bargain for that J4 range!

Actually, it's even worse than that.
Charter pays for low passage, high passage and cargo ... but nothing for middle passage.
So technically, under RAW, you can charter an XBoat for 1 ton of cargo for Cr900 ... and that's the price to charter an XBoat.
If you want to travel as a passenger, you'll only be able to do so as a middle passenger, but that won't be part of the charter price, so you're paying a full Cr8000 for the ride along with your up to 1 ton of cargo.

Max price for a Jump-4 XBoat charter ... Cr8900 for 1 middle passage and 1 ton of cargo.
Bargain really ...

 

[Spinward Flow]

I personally find a fuel tank for mulitple jumps to be a waste. If you so desire, just have a cargo hold able to be so used with collapsible tanks, and you will have the same capability of doing more tha none jump, while being able tu use it as cargo hold when that's not needed.

Agreed.
However, Collapsible Fuel Tanks did not exist (properly) until LBB A5 Trillion Credit Squadron.

The ideal is a single jump in internal fuel tanks, plus capacity for a second jump (or even a third!) in collapsible fuel tanks.
Since collapsible fuel tanks cannot be used directly for jump fuel requirements, you need at least a minimum of internal fuel built into the design in order to meet jump fuel requirements. Replenishment from collapsible reserves after that happens is where the flex fuel/cargo option comes into play.

 

[McPerth]

Charter pays for low passage, high passage and cargo ... but nothing for middle passage.

In most books, Middle Passage staterooms do not exist, High Passage ones being used for it when no High Passengers are found. So, for charter, it would be Cr 900 per carg oton and Cr 9000 per passenger stateroom, usable for High Passengers and Middle ones.

Nonetheless there are references to Middle Passengers being carried as double occupancy (a Vargr adventure in Alien Realms that I can remember now)

BTW, see that this does not work for other than tramp freighters, as the cost to charter a Type T Patrol cruiser under those rules would be just KCr 81 (45 for the cargo hold and 36 for the 4 passenger staterooms, usually used by troops) per fourthnight, and a Gazelle would be Cr 7200 (no passengers, 8 tons of cargo). As the owner pays all overhead and supplies the crew, a true ruinous business...

 

[aramis]

Another advantage is an easier calculation of astrogation and engineering checks, so you should be able to have a lower skilled (and cheaper) crew, possibly a one man show.

That varies by edition. T5 does vary by distance. CT, MT, TNE do not. I'm too lazy to check the others, as the point's made.