Third Imperium Government organization

[McPerth]

This comment from another thread has lead me to wonder about the Imperial GOverment organization.

I mean, we know the Imperial government is somewhat among a dictatorship (charismatic or not is open to discussion), self-perpetuating oligarchy, bureaucracy (again, impersonal or civil service open to discussion, and probably depending on specific zone) and feudalism, but how is it organized?

Specifically, I wonder what ministers (or departments, or whatever they are called) it has.

IRW this changes from country to country and even within a country from one Government to another, with ministries being raised and disbanded as the government feels necessary, but there are some ones that are omnipresent (or close to it): Though names may vary:

• Finances/economy
• Defense (though sometimes divided, with Navy having its own)
• Interior security (called as I may be)
• Diplomacy
• Health
• Social welfare (sometimes join with Health and(or Education)
• Education

In 3I, there are many references to MoJ (I guess it would be Interior), and at least some to a Finances (I cannot find the reference right now, but ITTR having read about a panel extrapolating finances and deciding how many credits were issued, and the fact there exists a common currency and taxes imply it) and (at least IMHO) educated guess is they have Defense, Diplomacy, as they have armed forces and diplomats.

But what about others? The sheer size and variability, and the (at least apparent) lack of interest by the 3I about the planets themselves (at least about how are they governed and their internal affairs) make me thing they don’t even care about it…

Of course, they probably have some Health control, at least to avoid spreading of plagues, but a full ministry or just something like the CDC (IMTU, as alredy commented some times) it is the last one, and it was a section of the IISS)?

Opinions? Canon sources?

 

[Condottiere]

Ministries of Peace, Love, Truth, and Plenty.

And, the Privy Purse.

 

[Enoki]

The way I see this, at least with finance, is that tax collection is a continuous and pyramid-type thing. Each subsector's government with the head noble(s) being entrusted to see it is done, collects taxes as a percentage of GDP of the planets in that subsector. Normally, the collection agency only has to focus on 2 to 4 systems as these make up roughly 90-ish percent of the GDP of the subsector. All the small fry are expected to contribute but for them it's almost an honor system as their contributions are chump change. Toss in some duties, customs taxes, and the like on top of that, and the subsector has their tax quota for the year.

This is forwarded to the sector government and then to the central Imperial government. The sector government keeps a cut to run things at that level. Sure, there's plenty of slop in this system so there's lots of graft, corruption, and the like to go around. So long as things run smoothly, and sufficient wealth is showing up at the central government's HQ, not many questions are asked.

There's also a lag between collections and the central government getting that money of up to several years due to the time it takes to transfer it. Imperial Navy ships are often tasked with moving tax collections at every level. The ships are considered difficult or impossible to pirate, and the officers chosen on their loyalty to the realm. Often, the captain is a noble from a trusted family lineage for this reason.

With defense, the system is multi-tiered in the same way. The Imperial Navy and Marines are organized and paid by the central government and take their orders from that body. Then there is a territorial navy and army that are raised and normally run by the sector nobility. These forces are the ones--in the name of the Emperor, of course--who keep things tidy locally. The central government puts out regulations and specifications on how these forces are to be equipped and trained but the reality is this is often loosely followed rather than some ironclad set of rules.

When the central government needs greater forces than the navy and marines can provide, they call up the territorials, maybe give them some additional training and equipment if there's time and money for that and use them to back up the full-time professionals.

 

[McPerth]

Normally, the collection agency only has to focus on 2 to 4 systems as these make up roughly 90-ish percent of the GDP of the subsector.

My guess is Imperial taxes are not as much on planets, but on trade, as it rules the "space between the stars", not the planets, and, after all, all merchants know they owe the Imperium the safe trade lines 8and Megacorps more than onthers, thespite their rants when it comes to pay taxes)..

The Imperial Navy and Marines are organized and paid by the central government and take their orders from that body. Then there is a territorial navy and army that are raised and normally run by the sector nobility.

Well, the existence of the Imperial Army, despite being controversial, is clearly stated in many canon sources...

 

[Enoki]

My guess is Imperial taxes are not as much on planets, but on trade, as it rules the "space between the stars", not the planets, and, after all, all merchants know they owe the Imperium the safe trade lines 8and Megacorps more than onthers, thespite their rants when it comes to pay taxes)..

Having played with the numbers and worked out economic systems to a degree, mostly for small ship trade, what I found repeatedly was that there were consistently just 2 to 4 systems in a subsector that had 'real' economies. These made up, usually, close to 90% of the subsector trade and wealth. The rest were a bunch of also rans and basket cases.

I'd go so far with that to say that only those 2 to 4, and maybe another 4 to 8 systems would even have imperial starport personnel at them. The rest would be run by locals whatever their quality, simply because they don't really matter in the grand scheme of things. If a larger corporation operates on those few worlds with a "real" economy, it pays taxes through the local system to the subsector and up.

The other that probably exists is with the megacorps that work more like the Dutch East Indies Company did where it's large enough to be its own government operating at the pleasure of the crown. This sort of corporation has its own internal tax structure and pays taxes independently of the subsector / sector system of general taxation. They'd have their own paramilitary forces as well as their own navy of sorts for commerce protection.

In some goods and services, they would have a monopoly and could deal with persons or upstart companies that challenge that themselves while the government turns a blind eye. That is, they are so big and powerful that they are a government unto themselves answerable only to maybe the sector duke or grand duke, and the emperor. Anyone lower on the political food chain has to tolerate them. Cross them, and they come after you with a vengeance... and a small army.

Well, the existence of the Imperial Army, despite being controversial, is clearly stated in many canon sources...

I could see it existing, but being mostly, if not entirely, defensive in nature. That is, it mans planetary defense systems, occupies strategic locations, and serves as an internal security force rather than being an instrument of offensive war. That is, it is much like the British army at the height of their colonial period.

So, the scenario would be some frontier world or another with an army garrison of maybe 1,000 men that operate the planetary meson guns and show up for parades and whatnot in shiny uniforms. Mostly they do boring drill stuff while the officers have a very tidy and comfortable mess to commensurate and enjoy a little bit of "civilized" life on the otherwise unbearably dull and backwards planet they're stuck on. But they do have nice uniforms!

 

[Condottiere]

The most likely time that the Imperium gets into your business, is when you dock at an Imperium run starport.

 

[Dragoner]

I don't think there is any real uniformity to the Imperium, as represented by canon, pretty much the opposite. Nobles, and planetary governments are going to do what they are going to do, even declaring war on each other.

Re: army, other forces - has to be for projection purposes, nobody would do it otherwise. Militaries are 10-90% tooth to tail; just because they aren't seen, doesn't mean they aren't there.

 

[Garnfellow]

I've never found a better reference for Classic Traveller sources than Chris Thrash's Imperial Bureaucracy. More recently, GURPS Traveller: Nobles and the MgT Third Imperium are also very helpful.

 

[whulorigan]

I've never found a better reference for Classic Traveller sources than Chris Thrash's Imperial Bureaucracy. More recently, GURPS Traveller: Nobles and the MgT Third Imperium are also very helpful.

GT:Nobles is excellent source material as a consolidation and fleshing out of the Nobles material that had evolved across the iterations of the game up to that point. But begining with MT certain assumptions are made that may not have been the original intent (such as the Noble fiefs, how they are assigned and what they mean). Counts being "associated with 2-3 worlds" does not necessarily imply governing or oversight authority, or the existence of sub-subsector administrative counties.

I find I like the T5 assumptions better as far as what is assigned to what, and remembering the whole government begining at the Subsector level as it relates to multi-world representation and the idea of the CT term "associated with" being a vague and broad term, and not necessarily governmentally specific.

MT made it hard to explain high-Soc Nobles arising thru CharGen.

Creative placement of T5 Noble fief Terrain Hexes makes the de facto power of nobles more understandable, allowing for both a primary world-title (or surname-title/fiefname-title) association, while still allowing for associations "off-world" for higher titles (Marquis+). Place the right number of THexes on the Firlef Main world and 1-2 closely associated relevant worlds, and you have your Viscount/Count 2-3 world association, with a few more THexes here and there around the Subsector/Sector. And you can get away with a Lesser Duke without rationalizing a Subsector Governor. All of that gives the nobles fingers in pies all over the Subsector or Sector.

MgT Third Imperium is a good resource, but has some notable misconceptions that readers need to be aware of (like the nature of the Imperial Army, for example).

 

[Spinward Flow]

I mean, we know the Imperial government is somewhat among a dictatorship (charismatic or not is open to discussion), self-perpetuating oligarchy, bureaucracy (again, impersonal or civil service open to discussion, and probably depending on specific zone) and feudalism, but how is it organized?

I suspect that the actual answer amounts to something that has "accreted" over 1000 years as the Third Imperium has expanded to it's Golden Era (1105) boundaries. This means that the "true" answer to your question is going to vary by region, rather than being something that is uniformly the same everywhere.

Simply due to the fact that "the Emperor cannot be everywhere at once, all the time" you wind up with a (more or less) Feudal type of arrangement in the hierarchy of nobility, simply as a side effect of how jump works to create communications lag. Perhaps one way to look at the situation is a sort of feudal/federal model where powers and authorities of the Emperor are devolved to local nobles who are given responsibility for subsets of the Third Imperium (scaling in tiers from multiple sector Domains down to individual worlds).

MT made it hard to explain high-Soc Nobles arising thru CharGen.

I would presume that the reason for that is the simple fact that truly high social standing (actual) Nobles usually ought not wind up as "adventuring Travellers" who wander around living the life of drifter crews and free traders. It's a bit like expecting some billionaire industrial CEO to "live the life of a commoner" as soon as they step down from their position with their company. Life just doesn't work out like that (usually).

 

[whulorigan]

I would presume that the reason for that is the simple fact that truly high social standing (actual) Nobles usually ought not wind up as "adventuring Travellers" who wander around living the life of drifter crews and free traders. It's a bit like expecting some billionaire industrial CEO to "live the life of a commoner" as soon as they step down from their position with their company. Life just doesn't work out like that (usually).

Yes, but CharGen creates them nonetheless, by design. Part of CharGen is creating the backstory along with the GM to fit them together with the campaign background and answer those questions.

And I have always thought it rather unfair to have an initial 2-12 stat range expandable to 1-15, only to have a referee continually step in to cap the earned value of the #6 Stat at some arbitrary amount by fiat. If I earn a 15 SOC in CharGen, then I should get it just as if I had earned a 15 DEX, not be told I don't get it and by extension don't qualify for the associated task throw DMs during play.

If a GM finds the current scale unusable, then either SOC should be rescaled (e.g. 13 = Imperial Knight & 15 = Imperial Baron) or reconceptualized (e.g. SOC 11-15 are Local Planetary Nobles (like CT'77 Book 3), and Imperial Knights / Baronets begin @ SOC = 13-15), or Imperial Nobles from SOC 11-15 are all Honor titles not immensely more prestigious than local titles, but qualify to become Peers & High Nobles @ SOC = 16+ as Subsector Level Officials and higher (i.e. "Baron-Peer", "Count-Peer", etc - Imperial Government begins at the Subsector Level, etc).

 

[McPerth]

I've never found a better reference for Classic Traveller sources than Chris Thrash's Imperial Bureaucracy. More recently, GURPS Traveller: Nobles and the MgT Third Imperium are also very helpful.

Quite good a document. Thanks for sharing it, as it mostly answers it, though I guess many of those ministeries are more at subsector level than at Imperial one.

This means that the "true" answer to your question is going to vary by region, rather than being something that is uniformly the same everywhere.

Sure, there's decentralization, and each tier of it is likely to have its own government and ministries, but what I wondered was at Imperial level, for those decisions taken from Capital.

I guess it would be akin current RL Spain (and I guess other countries, but this is the one I know the most), where there's a central government that has its ministries, but many decisions are taken at Autonomous Communities level, where each Government has its own ministries equivalent. Of course, no Autotnomous Community has a departmetn of defense or foreign relations, as those are at Central Government level, but OTOH some ministries (as Health) are nearly deprived of true power, as the competences are at Community level. I don't know how this is handled in US or Germany, or other decentralized countries, but this is not the point of the thread, and I give it only as an example.

Is the Central Government ministries I was asking for, as the lower tier ones would surely vary according local needs (I guess Core sector has no Colonization or Foreign deparments, while I also guess SM have them, just to give an example)

 

[Condottiere]

The problem with empires tends to be communications, command, and control.

Corruption might be added to that.

There are a lot of reasons to expand until you can't, and maintain frontiers, especially against other imperialistic forces.

Who wants German bratwurst mixing with pizza?

 

[mike wightman]

Anyone in the US ordering a pepperoni pizza...

 

[kilemall]

I was under the impression Miller considered the Imperium to be a feudal technocracy.

 

[whulorigan]

I was under the impression Miller considered the Imperium to be a feudal technocracy.

That really only means that there is a class of individuals granted noble titles, special rights, privileges, and "property" (i.e. lands, et al) from which to draw "rents" or other income in return for some guaranteed service to the Crown/The Empire.

In many ways that arrangement fits the Nobles who head the Megacorporations and its regional branches quite well. They have titles and special rights and privileges to go with their status as heads of Industry and Technological Develpoment ("Crony Capitalism") in return for guaranteed services to the Imperium and to the Emperor. The Imperium/Emperor picks the "favored-ones" and grants them privilege and special status in return for special service and contracts and a "cut" of the profits.

 

[Dragoner]

I don't know how this is handled in US or Germany, or other decentralized countries, but this is not the point of the thread, and I give it only as an example.

Marc is from about two hours west of me, as the crow flies. Here "the county is king" where most of the regular government you interact with is located; next is state, there is a military too in the National Guard, then federal, which is sort of blah, generally they give money to the state to do things. Translating to Traveller, there would be the Subsector as the main above world government, Sector some above that, and finally the Imperium; given time and distance to the Core, likely little actual involvement.

 

[Spinward Flow]

there's a central government that has its ministries, but many decisions are taken at Autonomous Communities level, where each Government has its own ministries equivalent.

This is a much better frame of reference to begin with, yes.

I was under the impression Miller considered the Imperium to be a feudal technocracy.

So does the Travellerwiki.

LBB3.81, p11:

Feudal Technocracy. Government by specific individuals for those who agree to be ruled. Relationships are based on the performance of technical activities which are mutually beneficial.

 

[Condottiere]

Sanitation pads.

 

[Krikkitone]

I think the key would be that high variability.

Truly Imperial level orgs are probably just
Taxes
Trade rules/enforcement
Scouts
Diplomats
Military (Navy, Marines, Army)

and thats it…
plague control might fit under Trade, but most other Imperial activity is probably sector/subsector handled (or handled through mega corporations which are primarily controlled by the imperial nobility)