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A better subsidized merchant

So you put in a C drive but only enough fuel for jump 5 - sorted.
Still not allowed by LBB2:
LBB2'81, p15:
At a minimum, ship fuel tankage must equal 0.1MJn+10Pn, where M is the tonnage of the ship, Jn is the ship's jump number, and Pn is the ship's power plant rating.
It's silly, but LBB2 rather insists on it.
You can presumably bypass this with demountable or drop tanks.


You can install a too small computer, so the ship is limited to J-5, but it must still have fuel for J-6 as built...
 
What if the "formula" changes with TL :)
To start with a coefficient of 200:
TL9 1-4 or A-D/ 200, 400, 600, 800
TL10 5-8 or E-H/ 1000, 1200, 1400, 1600
TL11 9-10 or J-K/ 1800, 2000
TL12 11-13 or L-N/ 2200, 2400, 2600
TL13 14-15 or P-Q/ 2800, 3000
TL14 16-19 or R-U/ 3200, 3400, 3600. 3800
TL15 20-24 or V-Z/ 4000, then it all goes horribly wrong 5000, 6000, 8000,12000
 
I see you're ignoring the meaning of maximum,

"For jump drives maximum potential is the ship’s jump number (Jn); for maneuver drives, the maximum potential is the maximum
acceleration (in Gs) that ship is capable of. For power plants, the maximum potential is the power plant size rating (Pn)"

Not only possible result, as you are asserting.
Then I guess you are out of luck, since there is no lettered drive that produces potential 5 in a 100 Dt hull, neither in LBB2 nor in T5.
A C drive produces potential 6, no less, no more.

As a said a very parsimonious reading of the rules, which is clearly in error.
 
I'm working on a set of deck plans for a "flying brick" version of a 400 ton trader/merchant,
4 decks, 100 tons each.
The top deck has B/B/B Drives @ 25 tons, 50 tons of fuel, 20 tons of bridge, with 5 tons left over for the computer and Captain's cabin.
1742903773843.png
 
I see you're ignoring the meaning of maximum,

"For jump drives maximum potential is the ship’s jump number (Jn); for maneuver drives, the maximum potential is the maximum
acceleration (in Gs) that ship is capable of. For power plants, the maximum potential is the power plant size rating (Pn)"
You are still truncating the quote:
LBB2'77, p10-11:
Different hulls have different requirements for drives and power plants. A drive of a certain size will be less efficient as the size of the hull increases. The maximum drive potential table lists the 24 possible drive and power plant types (lettered A through Z, omitting l and O) at the top and several levels of hull sizes along the left side. When drive or power plant letter is correlated with hull size, the number obtained is termed maximum potential. For jump drives maximum potential is the ship’s jump number (Jn); for maneuver drives, the maximum potential is the maximum acceleration (in Gs) that ship is capable of. For power plants, the maximum potential is the power plant size rating (Pn).
The number you find in the table is the "maximum potential".

The "maximum potential" is the jump number.
The jump number is the maximum range the ship can jump, i.e. a J-6 ship can jump up to 6 Pc.

"the maximum potential is the maximum acceleration (in Gs) that ship is capable of..."
If the maximum potential is 6, the ship is capable of 6 G, i.e. Mn is 6.

Do we really have to have a discussion about the meaning of "is"?


As a said a very parsimonious reading of the rules, ...
You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

Parsimonious: not willing to spend money or use a lot of something, small in size or amount.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/parsimonious
 
I'm working on a set of deck plans for a "flying brick" version of a 400 ton trader/merchant,
4 decks, 100 tons each.
I had a similar idea a few years ago, based roughly on the S7 Subbie and standard 50 Dt decks:
Skärmavbild 2025-03-25 kl. 13.44.png
The idea was to have a bunch of 50 Dt deck plans, that could be placed in any free 50 Dt deck. Works a treat.
 
Parsimonious, or uncharitable is exactly the right word,
You are still truncating the quote:

The number you find in the table is the "maximum potential".

The "maximum potential" is the jump number.
The jump number is the maximum range the ship can jump, i.e. a J-6 ship can jump up to 6 Pc.

"the maximum potential is the maximum acceleration (in Gs) that ship is capable of..."
If the maximum potential is 6, the ship is capable of 6 G, i.e. Mn is 6.

Do we really have to have a discussion about the meaning of "is"?



You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

Parsimonious: not willing to spend money or use a lot of something, small in size or amount.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/parsimonious
 
So, if the Maximum Drive Potential Table says "6" the ships jump number is 6, no more, no less.

A J-6 drive can of course also do J-5, but it is still a J-6 drive requiring 0.1MJn Dt jump fuel.
Still not allowed by LBB2:
LBB2'81, p15:
At a minimum, ship fuel tankage must equal 0.1MJn+10Pn, where M is the tonnage of the ship, Jn is the ship's jump number, and Pn is the ship's power plant rating.
It's silly, but LBB2 rather insists on it.
You can presumably bypass this with demountable or drop tanks.


You can install a too small computer, so the ship is limited to J-5, but it must still have fuel for J-6 as built...
Note:
If @AnotherDilbert is correct (which he's not ... but let's humor him :rolleyes:), the Type-J Seeker (LBB S7, p27-29) is flagrantly illegal and illegitimate despite being published RAW.

After all, if @AnotherDilbert is correct (which he's not) ... you CAN'T have a 100 ton hull with A/A/A drives (codes: 2/2/2) with anything less than 40 tons of fuel (20 tons for J2 plus 20 tons for power plant).

And yet ... as designed and published ... the Type-J Seeker has only 30 tons of fuel (10 tons for J1 plus 20 tons for power plant) with an OPTION for demountable internal fuel tanks to increase the accessible fuel load by +10 tons (back up to the original 40 tons of the Type-S Scout/Courier). An option which is NOT installed by default, I would point out.



What makes this example especially hilarious (for example purposes) is that if a 100 ton starship has 30 tons of fuel in it, it's capable of J2 (20 tons of fuel consumed) and will still have 10 tons of fuel reserve remaining for endurance (whether accelerating under maneuver or not) ... and as we all know (or at least, I hope we all do ... :unsure:), maneuver drives "have no purpose or use" while in jump between origin and destination. Likewise, weapons and screens that require EP have "nothing to engage" while in jump between origin and destination. In other words, while a starship is in jump, the only (1+) EP that must be supplied by the power plant during jump transits is for the computer to keep the computer operational (and model/1-2 computers use EP=0).

Therefore, while starships are in jump between origin and destination, power plant output can be "throttled back" to providing Basic Power (housekeeping for life support, effectively) and enough EP to keep the starship's computer operational (model/3+ require EPs). In other words, keeping the power plant ON and running "full blast" during the entire time while in jump is ... unnecessary (and wasteful).

While you're in jumpspace, you're "in another dimension" ... because ... "we're not in N-space anymore, Toto" ... which means that everything about the journey through J-space is determined when the jump flash occurs. So it's not like the jump drive needs to "keep pushing" (or "thrusting" if you prefer) while the starship is in J-space in order to reach the destination.

The jump drive probably does require some modicum of "basic housekeeping power" being continuously supplied to it in order to maintain the (protective) jump bubble/field externally around the starship, so you can't turn the jump drive (completely) OFF (cold) while in jump, but we aren't talking "EP relevant" levels of power production required to do that. Therefore, the jump drive needs to be "operational" (at minimal power levels) and the starship computer needs to be "powered" (with EP) and "basic power for housekeeping purposes" to keep the lights/life support on is all that is required while a starship is in jump space.

And why do I say that? :rolleyes:
Because once you're IN jump, the only ways to breakout from jump are either to "complete the journey" OR to intercept a gravity well/jump shadow "along the way" (that will precipitate your starship out of jump before reaching your intended destination). Presumably there are "other, more catastrophic" ways to precipitate out of jump, but since those tend to fall into the category of "never heard from again" :eek: we'll conveniently step over those possibilities as being "not relevant to routine/repeatable operations" for purposes of this discussion. 💥



Continuous Thrust = Continuous Velocity is something that only applies when moving through a medium that imposes drag (which solids, liquids and gasses tend to do).

As (I hope) we all know, the "drag" force of vacuum tends to be pretty minimal ... except when you're dealing with NAFAL type applications where approaching the speed of light has "implications" for the density of matter in a vacuum (along with the relativistic implications for mass calculations).

To my knowledge, there has NEVER been anything published for Traveller that imputes or implies that there is any kind of "drag force" (continuously) applied to starships while they are in J-space (or any other "not N-space" context). If there is ... citation needed.

If there's "no drag force" in J-space ... ipso facto there is no need for "continuous thrust" from jump drives while in J-space in order to reach the destination (just sustain the jump bubble around the hull).








All of the above reasoning is why I maintain that the LBB2 fuel requirements "settings" are less about what is REQUIRED TO OPERATE (at all) and more about safety regulations. The regulations are "biased" to force smaller craft to have larger fuel fractions for reasons of endurance in an emergency/mishap condition, rather than because drives installed into smaller craft are "fuel wasters" that become horrifically inefficient.

A Type-S Scout/Courier (for example) will consume 100/2000=0.05 tons of fuel per week for basic "housekeeping" power ... and 2*0.35=0.7 tons of fuel per week producing 2 EP for continuous acceleration @ 2G/Agility=2. Therefore, a Type-S Scout/Courier will consume a maximum of 0.75 tons of fuel while maneuvering continuously at maximum acceleration, per 7 days.

Therefore, 4 weeks/28 days of continuous acceleration at maximum power will consume ... 3 tons of fuel.

So why is a LBB2 designed Type-S Scout/Courier REQUIRED to have 20 tons of power plant fuel?

Simple.
Q: If a fuel hit (for ANY reason) occurs, what is the minimum fuel loss that can occur?
A: 1% of total fuel load or 10 tons, whichever is larger.

So, by requiring 20 tons of power plant fuel, a 100 ton starship with a Power Plant-A (code: 2) drive, such a minimalist starship could withstand 1x fuel hit and still have SOME fuel remaining to self-recover with. It's a safety margin.

Likewise, a Type-S Scout/Courier that jumps into a star system and refuels will have 40 tons of fuel onboard. At 3 tons of fuel consumption per 28 days/4 weeks/1 month (maximum) ... after 13 months/1 imperial year ... at maximum fuel consumption the Type-S Scout/Courier will have consumed 39 tons of fuel. So the Scout/Courier will have 1 ton of fuel margin remaining to maneuver to a location to (wilderness) refuel and then jump out of the star system.

In other words, that 20+20=40 tons of fuel requirement gives a Scout/Courier 1 year of maximum maneuver endurance on station in N-space before needing to refuel (assuming no mishaps during that time). Endurance of longer than 1 year becomes "problematic" for reasons of annual overhaul maintenance requirements.



Is this explicitly spelled out anywhere the way I'm presenting this information? 🧐
No ... this is a read between the lines that requires access to LBB2, LBB5 and CT Beltstrike to reach these conclusions, but the math checks out (after the fact).
 
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If @AnotherDilbert is correct (which he's not ... but let's humor him :rolleyes:), the Type-J Seeker (LBB S7, p27-29) is flagrantly illegal and illegitimate despite being published RAW.
If built new, without a demountable tank, sure.

But that is not the case, now is it?
Two ore bays (ten tons each) are formed from fuel tankage, hull space, and instrumentation, reducing fuel tankage to thirty tons. Dismountable fuel tanks can be used in the ore bays to increase the fuel tankage back to forty tons, but at a reduction of ore bay tonnage to ten tons total. With normal tankage, the ship can achieve jump-1; with the dismountable tanks full, the ship can achieve jump-2.
Peculiarities: All seekers of this type are produced from surplus scout/couriers. As a result, the dependability of the ship is not of the highest level.
 
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It's almost as if the folks at GDW didn't stick to the rules as written but used their own house rules in adventures and supplements. Being the author does have its advantages...
As far as I can see it's perfectly legal as far as the fuel is concerned:
1. Build a bog standard Scout.
2. Refit with smaller fuel tanks and a demountable tank.
3. Throw away the demountable tank.

You don't need to have 40 Dt tanks at all times.
You do need to design and build the ship with 40 Dt fuel.
There's a difference.

I didn't say the rules made sense, just that they are...


Now, turning 8 Dt of staterooms and 10 Dt fuel tanks into 20 Dt cargo hold, that is a problem...
 
Where are the LBB:2 rules for refitting and rebuilding ships? Where are the LBB:2 rules for demountable tanks? They are house rules yes? They certainly are not printed in any version of CT LBB:2 I own.
Can you do it?
According to S:7 yes.

So start with a scout ship with a C drive, fit 60t of fuel, M-A, PP-A, 20t fuel, 20 t bridge.

Now refit with a 50t fuel tank and build a stateroom and a computer 5 - sorted :)

(apart from the drives don't fit so the jump 5 scout was never a viable LBB:2 design in the first place. :))
 
Where are the LBB:2 rules for demountable tanks? They are house rules yes? They certainly are not printed in any version of CT LBB:2 I own.
Demountable tanks are detailed in TCS, and TTA says you can use them in LBB2 ships, as you well know.
CT is more than LBB1-3...


Where are the LBB:2 rules for refitting and rebuilding ships?
Refits are in TCS, and if we can use demountable tanks, why not refits? Nothing in TCS says you can't use it with LBB2.
Small craft customisation is described on LBB2'81, p17.
LBB2 is full of references to refits:
Original design plans for ships often include reserve tonnage for later use in installing fire control equipment, or for upgrading computers.
Turrets and weapons may be altered or retrofitted.
OPTIONAL COMPONENTS
The following optional components can be included in design plans, or may be acquired for later installation on a vessel.
Streamlining may not be retrofitted; it must be included at the time of construction.

Errata says:
Page 21, Building Ships, Retrofitting Components (omission): The following paragraphs were omitted from the 1981 edition:
____Computers: Larger or smaller computer models may be installed or retrofitted to a starship, regardless of the model originally called for. In new construction, the different model is in lieu of the originally specified model; in retrofitting situations, the old model of computer can generally be traded in at 25% of original cost.
____Turrets: Turrets may be installed after construction at hardpoints specified on the ship’s hull. Previously installed turrets may be removed and replaced by turrets of different sizes. Because they are options, they may be added to, or deleted from, the specifications of standard design ships. Used turrets removed in the case of renovation or retrofitting may be sold for 25% of their original cost. Turrets are considered to be streamlined.

But, sure, call it a house rule if you wish.

Edit:
LBB2'81, p35:
Because the repair cost can run to 120% in some cases, complete replacement of the item is sometimes cheaper.
This seems to suggest we can replace spacecraft components at nominal cost.
So, there is little doubt that we can replace components, less certain at what cost, and no clue about how long it would take, using LBB2 alone.

Replacement of drives with a bigger drive, since we have extra space in engineering (e.g. Subbie), which I would allow, might very well be a house rule.
 
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And yet the phrase "a parsimonious reading of...." is used in legal circle to mean an-uncharitable interpretation, for example a supreme court justice one wrote "“Once again, the ball is in Congress’ court. As in 1991, the Legislature may act to correct this Court’s parsimonious reading of Title VII.”

Unfortunately the dictionaries don't agree with you.

Even the latin root "parsimonia" means frugality or thrift.
 
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