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OTU Only: Gypsy Queen Class Fast Merchant, LBB2, 199Td, J26GP7

If we zoom in on the W+drives than either they have to be removed as an option for some of the hulls they are legal in as part of the 81 drive potential table or you have to allow them to be variable, and you definitely can't have a formula in either case.
200400600800100012001400160018002000220024002600280030003200340036003800400050006000800012000
ABCDEFGHJKLMNPQRSTUVWXYZ
600--111222333444555666----
700---11122223334444555-(6)-(6)--
800---111122223333444456(5)-(6)-(6)-(6)
900----111122222333344456-(6)-(6)
1000----111112222233333456-(6)-(6)
2000---------111111111122346
3000--------------1111111224
4000-------------------11123
5000*--------------------1112
12000-----------------------1

The numbers in parenthesis are the drive potential table numbers, the rest use "the formula" (that breaks down at W+)
 
It's not tuning, it's just what the table values are. There's no in-universe explanation, nor does there need to be. </rules literalism> :)

But yes, as described in "81, 10k and 12k ships indeed should be possible with the drives from the table.
 
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If we zoom in on the W+drives than either they have to be removed as an option for some of the hulls they are legal in as part of the 81 drive potential table or you have to allow them to be variable, and you definitely can't have a formula in either case
Sure, we can rejig the Drive Potential Table!

And then we forget about it, continue to design ships using the same old boring LBB2 table.

And then we have the same discussion again in a few years, as Mike has kindly shown us.
Or like this: https://www.travellerrpg.com/threads/why-book2.25178/post-380934
https://www.travellerrpg.com/threads/revised-lbb2-drive-potential-table.15839/post-261844


Being a bit slow myself, it took me until FF&S to realise that a new, better, more detailed, more complicated system wasn't the solution. I say: make do and carry on making adventures (& ships), not design systems.
 
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It's not tuning, it's just what the table values are. There's no in-universe explanation, nor does there need to be. </rules literalism> :)

But yes, as described in "81, 10k and 12k ships indeed should be possible with the drives from the table.
So we agree there is no magic formula underlying it all, the table was just made up to achieve a game effect.
 
Sure, we can rejig the Drive Potential Table!
We did, twenty years ago, for fun. People were constructive and helpful.
And then we forget about it, continue to design ships using the same old boring LBB2 table.
Yup, I don't think I have used it since :)
The same old discussions have been going around since the TML, it is a bit more noticeable with the interwebs doing such a good job of archiving stuff.
Being a bit slow myself, it took me until FF&S to realise that a new, better, more detailed, more complicated system wasn't the solution. I say: make do and carry on making adventures (& ships), not design systems.
I know exactly what you mean. I have tinkered with design systems, adapted rules from other games, used the design rules from other games whole cloth.

But if I need a ship in a hurry then it is out with LBB:2. I've mentioned before that the HG80 rules remain the almost default paradigm for most discussion, even on MgT and CE forums.
 
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Being a bit slow myself, it took me until FF&S to realise that a new, better, more detailed, more complicated system wasn't the solution. I say: make do and carry on making adventures (& ships), not design systems.
Well, I always muse, and as much as I'm a victim of this as others, still, there's all this time spent on speccing out boxes in space.

But we do it for a game that doesn't care. It's not like we have a rich, balanced tactical system that we're min-maxing for.

Similarly with the trade system. We all know the trade system is readily munchkined, so why quibble over a few tons of space or a few MCr?

I don't think there are any "trade captain" tournaments going on.

Finally, despite the fact that trillions of sophonts in the galaxy depend on something more important than boxes in space. Something that consumes vast amounts of their resources, time and has impact on Real Issues like their family and security, and I'm talking about housing here, there aren't any design systems to quibble about who can make the best condo layout, or the most efficient 3br house. "Do we go for the 1/2 bath or...an extra pantry? Do folks need more space to stockpile food?" "What about using straw bales as a building material for extra insulation?" "Oh, if you want to do that, you need to make a save against the HOA with a -4 DM to pass the design committee. But, don't forget an appropriate Bribery DM..."

But, I mean, you know, carry on!
 
Well, I always muse, and as much as I'm a victim of this as others, still, there's all this time spent on speccing out boxes in space.

But we do it for a game that doesn't care. It's not like we have a rich, balanced tactical system that we're min-maxing for.

Similarly with the trade system. We all know the trade system is readily munchkined, so why quibble over a few tons of space or a few MCr?

I don't think there are any "trade captain" tournaments going on.

Finally, despite the fact that trillions of sophonts in the galaxy depend on something more important than boxes in space. Something that consumes vast amounts of their resources, time and has impact on Real Issues like their family and security, and I'm talking about housing here, there aren't any design systems to quibble about who can make the best condo layout, or the most efficient 3br house. "Do we go for the 1/2 bath or...an extra pantry? Do folks need more space to stockpile food?" "What about using straw bales as a building material for extra insulation?" "Oh, if you want to do that, you need to make a save against the HOA with a -4 DM to pass the design committee. But, don't forget an appropriate Bribery DM..."

But, I mean, you know, carry on!
That’s cause B3 didn’t have a housing build system. If it was there, the arguments would be going on today.

We could gin that up pretty readily. Striker:The Home Edition.
 
So we agree there is no magic formula underlying it all, the table was just made up to achieve a game effect.
Yes and no.
There's a formula until there isn't. And the part where there isn't, was supposed to have been mostly superceded by HG'80.
 
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There's a formula until there isn't. And the part where there isn't, ...
Of course we can make a formula that covers the entire table, it's a simple curve-fitting exercise.

The formula would be a lot more complicated than the table, so why would we want to?
It would not give us any more information, such as the potential of a C drive in a 150 Dt hull.


... was supposed to have been mostly superceded by HG'80.
LBB5 explicitly does not supersede LBB2. You can equally well build ships of a few kDt with LBB2 or LBB5, and even in LBB5'80 large LBB2 drives are quite useful.
 
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Of course we can make a formula that covers the entire table, it's a simple curve-fitting exercise.
For example:
P = ⌊ ( D*200 + H(D>20)*(D-20)*800 + H(D>22)*(D-22)*1000 + H(D>23)*(D-23)*2000 + H(D=9)*H(H=7)*200 + H(D>20)*H(H=5)*-1000 + H(D>22)*H(H=5)*-2000 + H(D>23)*H(H=5)*-4000 + H(D>22)*H(H=6)*-2000 + H(D>23)*H(H=6)*-4000 ) / ( H*100 + H(H>2)*(H-2)*100 + H(H>6)*(H-6)*800 ) ⌋
where
P is drive potential, integer [1,6] (round down), filter out any higher or lower values,
D is drive code, integer [1,24] (round down),
H is hull code, integer [1,10] (round up),
H is Heavisides stepfunction.

Plotted:
Skärmavbild 2025-02-10 kl. 10.54.png


Do you really want to use that formula every time you want to get a drive potential?
And what are the odds that I missed a corner case somewhere?
 
Do you really want to use that formula every time you want to get a drive potential?
No.
I'd rather use THIS (if it's not too much trouble).
The formula would be a lot more complicated than the table, so why would we want to?
Depends on "how you build the formula" I guess.
You can do it the "maximum complexity/Rube Goldberg" way that you have ...
Or you can do it the "simple division" way that I have (as have others before me) ...
It would not give us any more information, such as the potential of a C drive in a 150 Dt hull.
When all you have is a "table of answers" with NO FORMULA for how those answers are determined/validated ... then the table is "all you've got to work with" and there are NO OTHER ANSWERS AVAILABLE for intermediate tonnages (such as Drive-C @ 150 tons, as you cite).

When you DO HAVE A FORMULA for how those answers in your table are determined/validated ... then you CAN find additional answers that are NOT IN THE TABLE for intermediate tonnages (such as Drive-C @ 150 tons). The table becomes a "partial list of quick reference" rather than an "exclusive list of only possibilities" when you know (and can use) the formula "behind the curtain" that, in effect, made the table take the form that it does.



It's a bit like the difference between arithmetic and algebra.
Algebra tends to be a lot more flexible and useful than arithmetic.
That's because you can use algebra to do the work or arithmetic ... but you can't use arithmetic to do the work that algebra does.
Arithmetic "works" for what it does, but algebra is a much more powerful and expansive paradigm to work with for doing math.

1+2=3 gives you a single answer for a single case.
x+y=z gives you ALL THE ANSWERS for ALL THE CASES ... just plug the values into the variables and you can find your answers.



The LBB2.81, p22 drive tables (both of them) are Prematurely Optimized for the page layout format they are presented in. The only way you can make use of the information is ... arithmetic. Which makes sense, because in 1977 and 1981, pocket calculators were only just starting to become consumer items that were reasonably priced for household use (so you didn't need to use Slide Rules or an Abacus for calculating numbers quickly).

Nowadays, we've got calculators in desktop, laptop, tablet, handheld phone and wristwatch form factors (among others), so we don't need the kind of training wheels/hand holding protection against seeing formulas that we did when LBB2 was first being edited into existence for publication in 1977 (and updated in 1981). We can handle "easy math" such as knowing that a Drive-C has 600 tons of "performance rating" so that in a 150 ton hull form factor it will yield USP code: 4.

X / Y = Z

Drive (performance, in tons) / Hull (size, in tons) = USP code (drop fractions to integer, only values of 1-6 allowed)

Simply include the Drive (performance, in tons) rating for each letter drive as part of the Drive Potentials table of information ... and it's just a matter of simple division from there to arrive at an answer for ANY combination of letter drive and hull tonnage, including all the intermediate tonnages which are not shown on the table. The table becomes a "convenient point of reference" for lookup of SOME possibilities ... rather than a "controlling tyrant" that denies the existence of ALL possibilities other than what is explicitly shown (including errors in multiple table entries).
Do you really want to use that formula every time you want to get a drive potential?
Your formula is even more cumbersome to use than the LBB2.81, p22 table, to the point of being Rube Goldberg-ish ... so ... NO.

The reason behind why your formula is so cumbersome and Rube Goldberg-ish is actually an indictment AGAINST the LBB2.81, p22 table as published ... rather than a supporting argument for it ... in my view.
 
I would argue that if you are introducing s function, eta (H), to get the progression that the drive potential table indicates you no longer have a "simple formula" :)

I'm wondering if some sort of sine function, possibly in the imaginary plane, may produce a value for eta (H) that would give the coefficient necessary for the J drive and the W->Z drives.

And some people thought FF&S too crunchy...
 
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