2 Quickies (hopefully)

[jawillroy]

For the encounter to last more than one or two volleys, yes, absolutely, a relatively low difference of vectors is essential.

As for missiles...
per the letter of the rule, you have to get the missile to end in the same hex as the target. So, you maneuver your missile's future position marker towards the ship's future position marker, not it's current.

Realisitically, if they cross at the same proportion of their movement, they should intercept as well, but that's mathy.

Augh. This has got me looking at SS3, Mayday AND the "official" errata, and I am realizing I am dead confused about everything in missile movement. I hate that.

I'd put together a nifty spreadsheet that calculates builds for SS3 missiles, but when I try to fix it based on the "Errata" corrections nothing makes sense at all - least of all Marc's corrected "standard" missiles.

The SS3 description for moving limited burn missiles seems unbearably fiddly.
And looking at Mayday, the description for moving limited burn missiles seems only marginally distinguishable from discretionary missiles.
On the other hand, at least in Mayday the constant burn missiles can change course...

And then there's the inconsistency of terminology about burns. 6G6: is that 6G maximum, burned off in a turn - or is that 6G maximum, burned off in 6 turns? (The tables in SS3 actually would indicate that 6G6 was actually 6G36....)

My brain is full of sad.

 

[Hyphen]

Another source of confusion will be my "Mayday Missiles Modified", available on my site under the Repair Bays.

It includes a 20G100 naval missile (among others).

 

[jawillroy]

It wouldn't matter so much if only the basic ruleset had made a complete statement.

If only the supplement had added clarity before complexity.

Ifififififif.

 

[whartung]

Yes Traveller space combat is the elephant in the room, there is none that makes sense.

I always thought HG and the TNE systems all made good sense.

 

[jawillroy]

Here's a narrower question: how does one interpret LIMITED propulsion missile movement in Mayday, for what Mayday refers to as a "6G6" missile?

"The missile is allowed a specific number of hex location changes for future positions. This value may be applied in increments (one or more hexes change of the future position counter per turn.) When the allowance is consumed, the missile may not change course."

Given a 6G6 missile, How does this differ from Discretionary propulsion?

(I could happily live with Mayday missile rules, were this only clarified.)

 

[whartung]

Given a 6G6 missile, How does this differ from Discretionary propulsion?

Typically an (X)G(Y) missile is a missile that has a drive capable of X G's per turn, with a fuel tank containing Y Gs of fuel.

So, a 6G6 is a missile with a 6G drive and 6 G Turns of fuel.

That means is can, for example, make 3, 2G corrections before it runs out of fuel. Or 6 1G corrections, or a 1G correction, then a 2G, then a 3G.

Or, it can make a 6G correction all at once.

As I recall with mayday, it worked similar to the vector system -- you place your future point, and then move the future point anywhere within the G rating of your drive to adjust your vector.

So, the way to play a 6G6 missile is basically, after the ships have moved, and the missiles are ready to move, if a ship is within 6 hexes of the missile future point (i.e. where it will be moving this turn, and the missile has not used any fuel yet), then the missile should be able to apply the "necessary Gs" to put the missile on top of the ship and have a chance to strike it.

I don't recall the exact sequence of play, but that's the gist of it. That's why the missiles can burn all of their fuel, all at once. That's how they handle simply being "close" to hit the ship, and it puts the burden of placing the missiles on a proper vector on the shooting ship, not the missile itself, since the missiles have limited maneuverability.

Missile end up being a space control measure. They end up being effective not just as an actual weapon, but as a way of controlling a space area. You can consider them having 6 hex zone of control. They're little booby traps. Enter the 6 hex radius, and incur their wrath. So, in that sense they can be used to limit maneuverability, like mines in a harbor.

You can also park them on the ship. If you know your ship is going to get close to the other ship, pre-launch some, they track the ship (since they inherit the vector), and when the enemy gets close, instead of a single laser turret to shoot at them, you have the turret and a brace of missiles there to hit them with as well.

 

[jawillroy]

Now, that sounds like how i would play a discretionary burn missile: what I don't understand is what limits are actually part of a "limited burn" missile in Mayday. It's the difference there that I'm trying to chase down.

 

[pendragonman]

Well I hope you learned your lesson!

There is no such thing as a quick question here. o:

 

[jawillroy]

<Lana Caine>NNNOOOOPE.</Lana Caine>

 

[whartung]

Now, that sounds like how i would play a discretionary burn missile: what I don't understand is what limits are actually part of a "limited burn" missile in Mayday. It's the difference there that I'm trying to chase down.

Having now look at the Mayday Rules, it says simply:

Discretionary The missile may be maneuvered in the same mafiner as a ship, provided that its G factor is not exceeded.

That means that it's not "limited" like a "Limited" missile is. Rather, it's simply a very small starship with a (X)G drive, and unlimited fuel.

Considering the difference between a Limited missile and Discretionary missile is only 200Cr, hard to imagine it not worth the extra money for unlimited fuel and maneuver.

And I agree, it's confusing when they have a sample Discretionary missile labeled as 6G12. But I can't see any other difference between the two. So I'd consider the latter to be a typo.

 

[jawillroy]

Hm. Yeah, get the discretionaries every time, then...

Using SS3, Limited is somewhat better defined, but fiddly:

In Special Supplement 3,

Continuous burn missiles go at full possible burn, without changing course, until the fuel is gone. So, 3G6 burns once at 3 g, again at 3 g and done. (Mayday allows course changes, which makes some sense.)

Limited burn missiles have their burn set at launch, with expensive course adjustments: so 6G6 goes like this:
Launch: 1g burn (leaves 5 fuel)
Turn 2: 1g burn without course change, with an adjustment of 1G which costs 2 fuel (leaving 2 fuel)
Turn 3: 1g burn without course change (leaving 1 fuel)
Turn 4 1G burn without course change (coasting)

SO: way fiddly, and not very useful.

Discretionary burn missile: Upon launch, can burn, or not, anywhere up to its G, as long as it still has fuel. So maybe 6G6
Launch: 2G burn (leaves 4 fuel)
Turns 2-6 Coasting
Turn 7 Burns 3 to impact, done.

Maybe a happy medium for Mayday would be this:

Continuous burn: Uses max fuel until fuel is gone. Course changes permitted.
So 6G6 accelerates once at 6G then coasts; 3G6 accelerates twice at 3G with a course change in the middle.

Limited burn: Can be set from lowest to highest g, will use that acceleration until fuel expended. Course changes permitted but acceleration remains constant.
So Limited burn 3G6 can go 1G 6 times, or 2G 3 times, or 3G twice; but it can't switch up or coast between burns

Discretionary burn: Can do whatever until fuel is gone: 6G6 might go 1 G1 burn, then a 5G burn, with a coast period between, or a 3G burn with 3 1G corrections thereafter. That would make the 6G12 make sense.

But then also, in SS3/Book 2, missiles that intercept the target (within 25mm, or 2500 km) are assumed to home in and impact with the target, possibly doing kinetic damage above and beyond the dice for the basic explosion. So there's a benefit in having a continuous burn missile with a huge G: as long as its vector passes within 25mm of the target's position, it'll hit, and will do immense damage.

In Mayday, IIRC the missile's "present position" has to end up sharing a hex with the "present position" of the target. Crossing over isn't enough. So a 6G continuous burn missile will only intercept a target every 6th hex... not quite the ship killer one would hope for! (Unless I'm missing something.)

Perhaps this is a good place to insert a player-character, in mayday-style missile combat. If a missile's vector intersects with - but does not end in - a target's hex, then the gunner's skill can be applied to adjust the missile vector to achieve the intercept.

One idea would be to shorten the intersecting vector by a number up to the gunner's skill level.
Another would be to roll 8+ to intercept, minus the number of hexes overshot, plus gunner skill.
How does that play for you?

 

[whartung]

Hm. Yeah, get the discretionaries every time, then...

Using SS3, Limited is somewhat better defined, but fiddly:

In Special Supplement 3,

Continuous burn missiles go at full possible burn...

Limited burn missiles have their burn set at launch...

Discretionary burn missile: Upon launch, can burn, or not, anywhere up to its G, as long as it still has fuel.

So what you're suggesting (which makes some sense) is that a "Limited" burn missile needs to have it's burns plotted before launch, in whatever complexity, whereas a "Discretionary" burn can maneuver freely as the player wishes. Limited maneuvering is no more expensive than anything else, it's just plotted so the player needs to think a few turns ahead.

But the missiles are still limited by fuel. That makes much more sense.

 

[jawillroy]

So what you're suggesting (which makes some sense) is that a "Limited" burn missile needs to have it's burns plotted before launch, in whatever complexity, whereas a "Discretionary" burn can maneuver freely as the player wishes. Limited maneuvering is no more expensive than anything else, it's just plotted so the player needs to think a few turns ahead.

But the missiles are still limited by fuel. That makes much more sense.

Right: the limited-burn missile can be set to operate at a given level, but can't change it once launched. It's more sophisticated than a continuous burn, gives the gunner some flexibility prior to launch.

The discretionary burn is much more likely to hit something - at short distances, it's almost guaranteed an intercept.

Using the (deeply flawed) SS3 rules - the equations, at any rate, it's pretty easy to design a 4G6 limited burn missile with a plain-jane warhead, infrared sensors and an intelligent detonator for about cr 4400. A discretionary burn missile with similar specs otherwise should be about cr. 7000.

Limited burn, infrared/intelligent 6G6 clocks in at close to the canonical cr5k. Discretionary burn kicks it up to about cr8200. TOTALLY WORTH IT.

(I'm remembering a scene in Cowboy Bebop... "That's what we get for buying the cheap ones...")

 

[kilemall]

Right: the limited-burn missile can be set to operate at a given level, but can't change it once launched. It's more sophisticated than a continuous burn, gives the gunner some flexibility prior to launch.

The discretionary burn is much more likely to hit something - at short distances, it's almost guaranteed an intercept.

Using the (deeply flawed) SS3 rules - the equations, at any rate, it's pretty easy to design a 4G6 limited burn missile with a plain-jane warhead, infrared sensors and an intelligent detonator for about cr 4400. A discretionary burn missile with similar specs otherwise should be about cr. 7000.

Limited burn, infrared/intelligent 6G6 clocks in at close to the canonical cr5k. Discretionary burn kicks it up to about cr8200. TOTALLY WORTH IT.

(I'm remembering a scene in Cowboy Bebop... "That's what we get for buying the cheap ones...")

Never understood going for the cheap missiles. Millions of cred worth of starship and possibly cargo/merc force/passengers on the line, and chintzing on a few 1000 Cr worth of missile.

 

[nobby-w]

Never understood going for the cheap missiles. Millions of cred worth of starship and possibly cargo/merc force/passengers on the line, and chintzing on a few 1000 Cr worth of missile.

IMHO (and IMTU, to some extent), I have missiles being rather larger and more expensive than the Book 2 variety. If you look at the cost of a modern anti-shipping missile like Harpoon or Exocet, they're actually quite complex and expensive, running into 7 digits each.

 

[Condottiere]

The missiles are incredibly cheap for what they do, to the point that by borrowing a mini-missile atomic warhead, you have an instant backpack nuke for peanuts.

 

[kilemall]

IMHO (and IMTU, to some extent), I have missiles being rather larger and more expensive than the Book 2 variety. If you look at the cost of a modern anti-shipping missile like Harpoon or Exocet, they're actually quite complex and expensive, running into 7 digits each.

I've got the missile bay ones being 10x as big and expensive plus extra doodads since they are attacking as an 'intelligent swarm' to get those higher HG attack values.