That's not an 'engineer' answer, that's a 'lawyer' answer.
Engineers use decimal points.
Spoiler:
And hope they are not nailed for ethics violations or sanctions.
3d Printing for Parts and Repairs
- Thread starter Meteoric Assault
- Start date
And hope they are not nailed for ethics violations or sanctions.
On topic contribution ... I would almost think that a 3D printer would be the key to manufacturing with Crystaliron (exact control of atomic placement in a lattice almost sounds like printing at molecular resolution). On the other hand, printing and partially collapsing matter (Superdense) sounds like the end of 3D printing technology as the primary method of manufacture.
So my IMTU WAG places 3D printers at
TL 8 = Introduction
TL 10 = Peak Use (Crystaliron)
TL 12 = Begin Decline (Superdense introduced)
So my IMTU WAG places 3D printers at
TL 8 = Introduction
TL 10 = Peak Use (Crystaliron)
TL 12 = Begin Decline (Superdense introduced)
That's not an 'engineer' answer, that's a 'lawyer' answer.
Engineers use decimal points.
Spoiler:
Fortunate for everyone I'm neither.....I prefer to think of myself as an almost talented, amateur, practitioner of useless trades.
It seems i picked up the Jack of trades skill at some point...maybe that few years I was wandering the world in search of myself...actually I was unemployed living on the couch of a friend doing odd jobs to by food....
Back to 3d printers .... If I get a chance I'll talk to the workshop owner and see what sort tech is coming on the market..he is a real wiz with the gizmos.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
You control that by specialization, and the one thing Maker manufacturers are NOT going to do is release Maker Makers.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
TL12+ 3d printers will incorporate gravitics and nuclear damper technology to fabricate parts.
Remember that the fabrication process takes a lot of time, it is often much faster to use conventional manufacturing methods to make stuff than to '3d print' it.
The real world military application, and the way it is used on the ISS, is to reduce the stock of spare parts you need. As long as you have the feedstock and the software you can print your spare parts rather than have a warehouse full of them.
Here in the real world they have 3d printer frames that are the size of houses that construct houses out of a concrete like material. There are 3d printers that can use a metal based feedstock to print circuitry. The majority are polymer based though.
As TLs rise though gravitic technology, fusion energy and later damper technology will all add to the capability of 3d printers - hence my group thinking the T5 makers are high TL nano-fabrication 3d printer like devices.
The small ones on a ship are useful for making the routine spare parts and making personal gear. Much larger facilities are needed to make the larger stuff.
Remember that the fabrication process takes a lot of time, it is often much faster to use conventional manufacturing methods to make stuff than to '3d print' it.
The real world military application, and the way it is used on the ISS, is to reduce the stock of spare parts you need. As long as you have the feedstock and the software you can print your spare parts rather than have a warehouse full of them.
Here in the real world they have 3d printer frames that are the size of houses that construct houses out of a concrete like material. There are 3d printers that can use a metal based feedstock to print circuitry. The majority are polymer based though.
As TLs rise though gravitic technology, fusion energy and later damper technology will all add to the capability of 3d printers - hence my group thinking the T5 makers are high TL nano-fabrication 3d printer like devices.
The small ones on a ship are useful for making the routine spare parts and making personal gear. Much larger facilities are needed to make the larger stuff.
Or let AI get near them...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQ5Elbvvr1M shows such a printer at work.
I saw another in use on an episode of a home repair show, and it used both concrete and spray foam insulation.
I do think about that ... once your desktop 3D printer starts collapsing matter like the core of a star, I start to suspect that there are 'unintended consequences' of the WMD variety that you probably do not want to introduce into the game just so the PC can fabricate anything anytime anywhere.
3D printing, at its most optimistic, is sounding a little too post scarcity for Traveller setting assumptions, so something, somewhere is going to have to give and I suspect reams of electrons will be spilled debating where that something should be.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Okay, did some extrapolation on my numbers and figured out I had the starship maker costs way too low, too much profit per ton of maker. Need to have something like 7-30 years before ROI exceeds sunk capital, depending on whether the market sustains constant building/repair or not and what the return on starship building is (I'm figuring 5-10% profit).
So, adjusted for the small to large scenario-
[FONT=arial,helvetica]
* shipboard versions can only repair/create spare parts for the TL and two below the maker is at (LBB2 drives are an exception as its a spec all TLs can build to if they have the minimum)
* the maker shop/bay is sized as the ability to make temporary repair parts, 1 ton of repaired equipment per 1 ton installed per day
* each repair shop is specialized- [/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica]engineering makers, hull makers, starship weapons makers, electronics, mining equipment makers, vehicle makers, personal armory makers, etc. etc.
[/FONT][/FONT]* price is TL3 x 1000 Cr per ton
* permanent repair/small craft build capabilities are at 50x the ship-based temporary repair size, and full maker capacity 200x.
So for giggles, let's do starports with eng/hull/weapon/electronics/grav/mechanical/weapons capabilities-
* a C starport at TL9 with 10 tons capacity temporary repair capacity per day each for 70 tons total
* a B starport at TL12 with 100 tons permanent repair/small craft capacity per day for 700 tons total and
* an A starport at TL15 with 1000 tons starship build/repair capacity, 7000 tons total
Base C-9 per ton is 729,000 Cr, x70 yields 51.03 MCr
Base B-12 per ton is 1.728 MCr, X700 x50 yields 60.480 BCr.
Base A-15 per ton is 3.375 MCr x7000 x200 yields 4.725 TCr.
Keep in mind that's not 7000 tons of entire starship build per day, hulls and drives and electronics would have to all be built up at the same time, so maybe it works out more like 2000 tons. Also of course to fit the 'published' build rates the build rate per ton would be more like .5% per day.
I could see some economizing by A starports operating B-level repair facilities at lower costs keeping the expensive yards free for building ships, some repair facility at lower TLs to serve clientele in lower tech ships at a cheaper capital cost, and some temp repair at both A and B starports for down on their luck captains just needing to push to the next system.
For those feeling the need to work out the economics from this baseline cost structure, I would tend to build in high costs including brutal costs to keep capacity even when idle.
Also gives refs an opportunity to do things like 'sorry repair and maintenance/inspection bays tied up solid for the next three months, we can temp repair you and you can come back or jump to Magnolia system three jumps away, they aren't busy this time of year'. Misjumps or bribery may ensue.
[/FONT]
So, adjusted for the small to large scenario-
[FONT=arial,helvetica]
* shipboard versions can only repair/create spare parts for the TL and two below the maker is at (LBB2 drives are an exception as its a spec all TLs can build to if they have the minimum)
* the maker shop/bay is sized as the ability to make temporary repair parts, 1 ton of repaired equipment per 1 ton installed per day
* each repair shop is specialized- [/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica][FONT=arial,helvetica]engineering makers, hull makers, starship weapons makers, electronics, mining equipment makers, vehicle makers, personal armory makers, etc. etc.
[/FONT][/FONT]* price is TL3 x 1000 Cr per ton
* permanent repair/small craft build capabilities are at 50x the ship-based temporary repair size, and full maker capacity 200x.
So for giggles, let's do starports with eng/hull/weapon/electronics/grav/mechanical/weapons capabilities-
* a C starport at TL9 with 10 tons capacity temporary repair capacity per day each for 70 tons total
* a B starport at TL12 with 100 tons permanent repair/small craft capacity per day for 700 tons total and
* an A starport at TL15 with 1000 tons starship build/repair capacity, 7000 tons total
Base C-9 per ton is 729,000 Cr, x70 yields 51.03 MCr
Base B-12 per ton is 1.728 MCr, X700 x50 yields 60.480 BCr.
Base A-15 per ton is 3.375 MCr x7000 x200 yields 4.725 TCr.
Keep in mind that's not 7000 tons of entire starship build per day, hulls and drives and electronics would have to all be built up at the same time, so maybe it works out more like 2000 tons. Also of course to fit the 'published' build rates the build rate per ton would be more like .5% per day.
I could see some economizing by A starports operating B-level repair facilities at lower costs keeping the expensive yards free for building ships, some repair facility at lower TLs to serve clientele in lower tech ships at a cheaper capital cost, and some temp repair at both A and B starports for down on their luck captains just needing to push to the next system.
For those feeling the need to work out the economics from this baseline cost structure, I would tend to build in high costs including brutal costs to keep capacity even when idle.
Also gives refs an opportunity to do things like 'sorry repair and maintenance/inspection bays tied up solid for the next three months, we can temp repair you and you can come back or jump to Magnolia system three jumps away, they aren't busy this time of year'. Misjumps or bribery may ensue.
[/FONT]
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He does have a very good point....
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
We've already got frac-C potentially nuclear-armed starships with nice exploding fusion cores that can misjump, carry economic ruin, contagion and ecological disaster across interstellar distances, and that's just the cargo ships.
We are WAY beyond playing safe with atoms.
I expect if we showed an 18th century craftsman a modern wood shop, he would vacillate between ecstasy, horror, and get himself seriously injured trying to operate the power equipment.
So I expect the hull plating grav presses on board ship have big warning labels saying 'do not exceed 18 gigapascals on metallic hydrogen forms' or some such.
Now as far as post scarcity is concerned, I've laid out the idea that makers should be specialized and highly expensive for each category, and operations costs that will keep them in-line with actual demand.
I also priced and sized the permanent repair/build stuff the hell off any but the most specialized ships.
Among other things a whole lot of metals and other materials are going to have to feed these things, iridium for a lot of that high density/heat equipment for starters, and so this isn't Star Trek replicate me everything out of cheap stock material, not for what most travellers are playing with.
We'll just want things no one cares about now, such as lanthanum.
On the other hand we already are postulating a post-scarcity environment for many things, hydrogen fueled fusion for starters, and of course we have had one heck of a run in electronics in modern day off of silicon (sand) so we can probably expect more of that as technology progresses.
It will be the effort skill and tools required to use the raw materials that will 'add value'.
Wow. I was going to suggest that 3D printing couldn't produce parts that could withstand high pressure, or even torque, and then checked online. Just as well I did, as Elon Musk and company just made me blink. See Wikipedia, here. It's quite amazing.
This said, as mentioned earlier, you'd need to have a 'printer' of the right size and capabilities, the right properly refined raw materials on-hand, AND the correct tech specs and CAD/CAM files, all on-hand and available, in order to manufacture your spare parts... I'd imagine that some of these would cost an arm, leg, and perhaps a kidney or two, as well...
This said, as mentioned earlier, you'd need to have a 'printer' of the right size and capabilities, the right properly refined raw materials on-hand, AND the correct tech specs and CAD/CAM files, all on-hand and available, in order to manufacture your spare parts... I'd imagine that some of these would cost an arm, leg, and perhaps a kidney or two, as well...
In an earlier post i posted a video I had found a video of a direct laser sintered colt 1911 being test fired.
That's not an 'engineer' answer, that's a 'lawyer' answer. Engineers use decimal points. lawyers talk in circles.
A circle is a work of geometric perfection, regularity, and predictability. A lawyer talking in circles would involve an almost freakish confluence of legal competence, robust flat fees, and clear directions from the client.
Heck, you are profoundly lucky if you even get Euclidean geometry in your own advocate's discourse....
Not quite true, folks. Lawyers work in quantum physics. They can tell you that white is black, and black is white. And then they try to get you to cross a zebra crossing...
Good lawyers establish that tings are black and white at the same time.
the best lawyers prove it is neither black or white, it only becomes black or when observed.
