5th FW info wanted (event, not game)

[Theophilus]

When did the Federation of Arden come into existance? I thought it only formed after the fifth frontier war.

Looking at the map on the front inside cover of the Spinward Marches campaign book, there is no Federation listed, mapped, outlined or shown.
In the MT Imperial Encyclopedia pg 95, Arden/Fa is listed as an Allegiance code.

I recall a reference to the Fa being formed after the ffw, So the Fa couldn't oppose the Zho advance since it didn't exist. IIRC the Fa was actually a response to the Zho attack, placed as a buffer state between the Imp and Zho's. I'll look up references for this if anyone asks.

 

[Dulinor]

When did the Federation of Arden come into existance? I thought it only formed after the fifth frontier war.

ISTR that it was created by the armistice of the third frontier war (although I can't retrieve the reference for now...).
The Spinward Marches Campaign clearly states that the FoA predates the 5thFW (look for instance what's written under Vilis Subsector, on p. 19).

 

[rancke]

There are some conflicting information about Arden.

According to the maps from the essay about the settlement of the Marches, Arden was settled before 300 but remains independent until after 500. [There are three maps showing settlements in 300, 400, and 500. Arden is settled but outside the Imperial border on all three.]

According to the description on p. 8 of SMC, Arden was part of the Imperium from 290 to 986. It became independent as part of the armistice following 3FW. In 1110 it has "recently" become imperialistic and has taken over Zircon and Utoland. "Recently" is before 1105, though, as Utoland belongs to Arden already.

According to the historical maps in SMC, Arden became part of the Imperium during 1FW and becomes independent during 3FW.

Before 5FW, Arden is ostensibly a democracy but actually a charismatic oligarchy; government officials are supposedly elected democratically, but in practice, candidates can only be members of the Arden Society, a small group of dedicated individuals who become members through financial or labor contributions. [SOA:2]

In 1110 the local pro-Zhodani government (i.e. the Arden Society) was replaced by a pro-Imperial coalition representing commercial interests both on and off-world. [TNS]

Some time between 1110 and 1120, the aforementioned government is replaced by a different charismatic oligarchy: a hereditary noble class. [BtC].

So far canon. I've been working on Arden's history a bit, although I'm far from finished. Here's what I have so far (None of it canonical):

Arden was first settled around -100 by a group of refugees from Hofud fleeing the chaos of the War of the First Rebellion. The refugees survived and even multiplied, but they lost most of their technology and all of their written history. Their descendants, somewhat more than 100,000 people calling themselves the Hrolfungs, were found in 56 by the Scout cruiser Vitus Bering. Following standard procedure the Scouts put the world under administrative interdict pending further investigation, but due to limited resources no follow-up expedition was arranged for 40 years.

In 96, an Imperial transport fleet carrying some 24,000 exiles from Warwick (Massilia 2109, later named Murcia) ignored the interdict and deposited its passengers in an empty part of the world a few hundred miles from the populated region. At this time the Hrolfungs is estimated to have numbered in excess of 350,000.

The new colonists called the world New Warwick and the lush, forested location of their first settlement Arden. The original name quickly fell into disuse and the world eventually became know as Arden. The leaders of the colony were neo-romanticists and tended to name geographical features of their new home from Shakespeare's plays, mostly the comedies.


ca. -100 Sword Worlder refugees settle on Arden and quickly regress
to TTL 2.

56 Arden found by Scout cruiser VITUS BERING and put under
administrative interdict.

96 Settlement of Arden by Pacification Campaign exiles from
Murcia (Massilia 2109).

290 Arden becomes Imperial client state.

470 [A big chunk of Vilis joins the Imperium en bloc, but Arden
doesn't join until 1FW].

511-530 RIO Movement colonizes Rio (Spinward Marches 0301).

Early 600s Arden becomes part of the Imperium. Local leader made Marquis
of Arden.

629 As part of Arbellatra's political reorganization, the Marquis of Arden is
elevated to Duke of Arden and made subsector duke of Vilis. The Count
of Vilis is moved to Antares and replaced by a noble from Massila.

986 Arden becomes independent as part of the armistice following
3FW. Followed shortly after by balkanization.

986 The Duke of Arden receives land on Regina and Efate as compensation for
the loss of his personal estates and is "invited" to move to Capital.

1029 Arden Society founded with the goal of reunifying Arden.

1072-1083 The different national chapters of the Arden Society force
local governments to join in a Federation.

1105 Arden is straining under internal pressures. Government turns
imperialist to divert attention.

1106 Takeover (not colonization) of Utoland.

Early 1107 Takeover (not colonization) of Zircon.

1110 Government toppled, Imperium-friendly (Megacorporation-
influenced) government installed.

1112 Merchant government in turn toppled by aristocrats.

1113 Federation resumes expansion. Takeover of Zenopit.​

That's as far as I've come, except for some scattered historical notes. Make whatever use of it you like.


Hans

 

[Icosahedron]

There's a story hook in there...

I'm just wondering if the takeover of aristocrats in 1112 could be led by the heirs of the exiled duke 126 years after he's deposed. Maybe the actual title has become extinct after a failure of the hereditary line (or not), but relatives who are still classed as nobility have infiltrated the megacorp government (they may even have instigated it as a planned interim measure) and declared an Arden Aristocracy. They may not declare wholly for the Imperium and reclaim their Duchy (yet), but it may be part of their 200 year plan...

 

[McPerth]

It seems the expansionism of the FofA kept on following the FFW (probably profiting from the disruption and war weariness caused by it).

In MT Imperial Enciclopedia (year 1120 map), the federation is constituted by Quare (0915), Zenopit (1010), Arden (1011), Zircon (1110), Utoland (1209), Pequan (1210) and Tremous Dex (1311).

Of special note is the addition of Quare, with its TL 9 starport B (and naval base, suggesting the blessing of the Imperium) and Tremous Dex, with its TL 12 and starport B. This has solved the problem the federation had with its fleet, as before that its main starports were Arden and Utoland (both TL 8 starport C). It also allows to refit its ships to TL 12 (at Tremous Dex), but it still has to buy somewhere else its starships, as it lacks any starport A.

This Imperial blessing seems to point what Icosahedron hints...

 

[rancke]

Of special note is the addition of Quare, with its TL 9 starport B (and naval base, suggesting the blessing of the Imperium) and Tremous Dex, with its TL 12 and starport B. This has solved the problem the federation had with its fleet, as before that its main starports were Arden and Utoland (both TL 8 starport C). It also allows to refit its ships to TL 12 (at Tremous Dex), but it still has to buy somewhere else its starships, as it lacks any starport A.

TCS to the contrary notwithstanding, a world does not need a Class A starport to build military ships. It just needs shipyards that are not open to civilian construction. Starport rating shows what amenities a civilian can avail himself of. There's a rule in HG that specifically allows a world to build its own ships regardless of starport rating, provided it has the requisite technology. So with a TL of 8, Arden can't build starships, but it can build monitors and SDBs. Unless its Space TL is higher than its High Common TL, in which case it can even build jump-1 ships. And indeed, BtC, p. 62 states that "Arden's commercial port is a modest affair, but the private Federation Government port is quite sophisticated. A small shipyard builds private starships for the nobility and a few minor military vessels - mainly patrol or escort frigates."

Mind you, if I was an Arden Bigwig, I'd prefer buying a J3 ship from a Sword World instead of a homebuild J1 ship. But it would be nice for Arden if it was able to maintain those ships itself.


Hans

 

[rancke]

I'm just wondering if the takeover of aristocrats in 1112 could be led by the heirs of the exiled duke 126 years after he's deposed. Maybe the actual title has become extinct after a failure of the hereditary line (or not), but relatives who are still classed as nobility have infiltrated the megacorp government (they may even have instigated it as a planned interim measure) and declared an Arden Aristocracy. They may not declare wholly for the Imperium and reclaim their Duchy (yet), but it may be part of their 200 year plan...

I doubt it. Not so much because I plan to use the Duke of Arden (or rather, one of his heirs) as an important NPC in an adventure I'm writing, because that's not canon (and rightly so, since I may never get around to finishing the adventure), but because Imperial nobility is not the same as parochial (planetary) nobility. Sometimes there's an overlap, yes, when the Imperium is forced by realpolitik to give an Imperial title to a planetary leader, but I think the ousted Imperial nobles would have been replaced by new home-grown aristocrats fairly quickly. And that's assuming the Duke of Arden was running Arden in the first place, which is not necessarily the case.

I'm imagining the hereditary aristocrats as the leftovers from the regimes the Arden Society took power away from a mere generation earlier.


Hans

 

[Theophilus]

So then, Ardens effect on the 5th Frontier War is effectively nil. Both sides passed through Arden territory without pause.

 

[McPerth]

TCS to the contrary notwithstanding, a world does not need a Class A starport to build military ships. It just needs shipyards that are not open to civilian construction. Starport rating shows what amenities a civilian can avail himself of. There's a rule in HG that specifically allows a world to build its own ships regardless of starport rating, provided it has the requisite technology. So with a TL of 8, Arden can't build starships, but it can build monitors and SDBs. Unless its Space TL is higher than its High Common TL, in which case it can even build jump-1 ships. And indeed, BtC, p. 62 states that "Arden's commercial port is a modest affair, but the private Federation Government port is quite sophisticated. A small shipyard builds private starships for the nobility and a few minor military vessels - mainly patrol or escort frigates."

Mind you, if I was an Arden Bigwig, I'd prefer buying a J3 ship from a Sword World instead of a homebuild J1 ship. But it would be nice for Arden if it was able to maintain those ships itself.


Hans

IIRC we talked about this planet building capability in another thread. I think only ships able to land on a planet can be built there, so they must be streamlined, and I guess there should be a tonnnage limit.

The only thing about that I've found in canon is that Naval and Scout bases have downport facilities for ships up to 1000 dton, larger ships eing serviced in orbit. Even so I guess larger ships are quite difficult to build planetside. A 1000 dton ship is as large as a WWII destroyer/light cruiser, and a 5000 dton as a WWII batleshisp. Even if they can land on a planet, I don't think starport authorities are happy with such behemoths flying over them...

About Arden being able to build jump capable ships, even if its space TL is higher than its High Common, according to World Builders Handbook (MT) the maximum they could have is TL 9, so they would barely build them, and, as discussed on another thread too, they would be prototypes of dubious reliability (MT WBH, page 95).

About buying J3 ships (I guess TL 12 ones, so they can be mantained in Tremous Dex), I think they would better buy them from Imperium than Sword Worlds, as its allying with 3I at the final stages of FFW would have made them more friendly.

I guess Tremous Dex is quite busy refitting and mantaining them by now...

So then, Ardens effect on the 5th Frontier War is effectively nil. Both sides passed through Arden territory without pause.

Its role in the war was one of neutrality until 004-1110, when it sides with Imperium (CT, SMC, page 16, FFW timeline table)

 

[rancke]

IIRC we talked about this planet building capability in another thread. I think only ships able to land on a planet can be built there, so they must be streamlined, and I guess there should be a tonnnage limit.

Why shouldn't a world with space shuttles be able to ferry subcomponents into orbit and assemble them there?

About Arden being able to build jump capable ships, even if its space TL is higher than its High Common, according to World Builders Handbook (MT) the maximum they could have is TL 9, so they would barely build them,

Actually, the maximum they could have according to WBH is 14 (+1D6), which I didn't realize until looking up the rule in connection with our discussion. Personally, I don't believe that. While I consider it perfectly plausible that a civilization can be more advanced in some fields than in others, I don't think a difference of six levels is at all plausible. The possible results are +1, +2 and +1D6. I'd suggest sticking to +1 and +2.

...and, as discussed on another thread too, they would be prototypes of dubious reliability (MT WBH, page 95).

And, as I answered you at the time, I think that fails the reality test. I think it's perfectly possible for a world to be more advanced -- mature technology advanced -- in some fields than in others, like, say, having computers in advance of most other technologies. I think there are even canonical examples of worlds like that, though I could be wrong.

About buying J3 ships (I guess TL 12 ones, so they can be mantained in Tremous Dex), I think they would better buy them from Imperium than Sword Worlds, as its allying with 3I at the final stages of FFW would have made them more friendly.

Aren't we talking about the pre-war space navy at the moment?

I guess Tremous Dex is quite busy refitting and mantaining them by now...

Maintenance seems to be easier than construction. Any civilian ship can get its yearly maintenance at any class A or B starport, regardless of the local tech level.

Combat repairs, now, that's probably a problem.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

Why shouldn't a world with space shuttles be able to ferry subcomponents into orbit and assemble them there?

At the TL Arden is (8) I don't believe that possible. Is slightly more advanced than today's Earth, and you can see the problems we're having to buid the ISS, and I guess starships would be even more complex.

Actually, the maximum they could have according to WBH is 14 (+1D6), which I didn't realize until looking up the rule in connection with our discussion. Personally, I don't believe that. While I consider it perfectly plausible that a civilization can be more advanced in some fields than in others, I don't think a difference of six levels is at all plausible. The possible results are +1, +2 and +1D6. I'd suggest sticking to +1 and +2.

I'm affraid you forget the maximum. It's true that the tables can give you de +1d6, and if you add to this the modifiers for starport (in Arden would be 0, as starport is C) and intestellar extensiveness (I don't know this detail about Arden), it could even be +8.

But the upper limit (always according to WBH) is the same that energy upper level, so is High Common + High Common/5 (drop fractions). As the High Common is 8, 8 + 8/5= 8 + 1.6 = 9.6, as fractions are dropped, 9.

And, as I answered you at the time, I think that fails the reality test. I think it's perfectly possible for a world to be more advanced -- mature technology advanced -- in some fields than in others, like, say, having computers in advance of most other technologies. I think there are even canonical examples of worlds like that, though I could be wrong.

Even if you had higher space TL, you'd need also higher energy TL or you'd rely on lower TL PP for your starships. Same happens with weaponry, computers, etc...

I think it's because of this those are considered prototypes of dubious reliability.

Aren't we talking about the pre-war space navy at the moment?

If so (frankly, I was tralking after the war, but we can talk both), they would have serious problems with maintenance if their ships were higher than TL 9 (I assume that's Arden's space TL, as if it's lower it would be too hard pressed to mantain its offsystem possesions, IMO)

Maintenance seems to be easier than construction. Any civilian ship can get its yearly maintenance at any class A or B starport, regardless of the local tech level.

Combat repairs, now, that's probably a problem.

It's true rules don't state (AFAIK) a minimum TL to make maintenance, but common sense (IMO again) tells that if the TL of the maintaning starport is too low, performance would suffer in time (it's difficult for a planet whose most advanced matherial is Lt Wt composite laminate (armor code D in MT, TL 9) to properly mantain a superdense hull (armor code F in MT, TL 12). Same is true in other starship components).

 

[rancke]

At the TL Arden is (8) I don't believe that possible. Is slightly more advanced than today's Earth, and you can see the problems we're having to buid the ISS, and I guess starships would be even more complex.

But Real Life Earth isn't TL8. TL8 is what the GDW guys rather optimistically imagined Earth's space technology would be like today. TL8 means that "Interplanetary exploration begins in earnest". That implies that the orbital shuttles that appear at TL8 are actually capable of putting stuff into orbit cheaply enough to allow interplanetary travel.

I'm affraid you forget the maximum. It's true that the tables can give you de +1d6, and if you add to this the modifiers for starport (in Arden would be 0, as starport is C) and intestellar extensiveness (I don't know this detail about Arden), it could even be +8.

But the upper limit (always according to WBH) is the same that energy upper level, so is High Common + High Common/5 (drop fractions). As the High Common is 8, 8 + 8/5= 8 + 1.6 = 9.6, as fractions are dropped, 9.

Right you are, I hadn't taken that into account. Maximum TL9 it is.

Even if you had higher space TL, you'd need also higher energy TL or you'd rely on lower TL PP for your starships. Same happens with weaponry, computers, etc...

There are 12 sub-fields to tech level, so it's possible to be advanced in several different fields. But the homegrown possibility was never my favorite, just an extra possibility.

I think it's because of this those are considered prototypes of dubious reliability.

I'm not saying that an advanced field can't be borderline (i.e. merely prototypes). I'm just saying that it's also perfectly possible to be solidly advanced.

If so (frankly, I was tralking after the war, but we can talk both), they would have serious problems with maintenance if their ships were higher than TL 9 (I assume that's Arden's space TL, as if it's lower it would be too hard pressed to mantain its offsystem possesions, IMO)

It's true rules don't state (AFAIK) a minimum TL to make maintenance, but common sense (IMO again) tells that if the TL of the maintaning starport is too low, performance would suffer in time (it's difficult for a planet whose most advanced matherial is Lt Wt composite laminate (armor code D in MT, TL 9) to properly mantain a superdense hull (armor code F in MT, TL 12). Same is true in other starship components).

Obviously it will be necessary to import spare parts, just as any class A or B starport on a world without the requisite tech level would have to. There are several worlds in the Spinward Marches bith Class A or B starports and a tech level of 5. How exactly do you imagine they manage to get such a rating?


Hans

 

[McPerth]

Obviously it will be necessary to import spare parts, just as any class A or B starport on a world without the requisite tech level would have to. There are several worlds in the Spinward Marches bith Class A or B starports and a tech level of 5. How exactly do you imagine they manage to get such a rating?

I've allways seen those starports as external bases to planet population (my personal oppinion, and, as always, perhaps wrong).

Motmos (1340) is perhaps the most representative example of my line of though. A B starport with a naval base on an extraimperial subsector. As I see it, this starport is probably totally segregated from the planet population, perhaps even out of the planet (orbital installation or another system body) and the planet is not aware of it (in this specific case, I don't believe to be so, as the planet is open green zone). In any case, it's probably a foreign naval base on a low tech planet.

I guess most of the cases where such starports exist are similar situations, though not always a naval base, maybe from a corporation, trade company, or whoever it needs this base there.

I think to remember I've readed somewere (I cannot recall where, nor sure if it was an official supplement, or extensive to all traveller) that the TL arround the starport is assumed to have some minimums, regardless the planetary pop's high common TL. IIRC, arround a B TL the minimum was 8-9, and on an A starport 10-11.

 

[rancke]

I've allways seen those starports as external bases to planet population (my personal opinion, and, as always, perhaps wrong).

While I don't agree with you, I do not propose to argue about that. But what difference does it make? If there's a Class A or Class B starport there, you can get an annual maintenance of your ship, regardless of the local tech level. If you can get a TL9 starship maintained on a starport located on a TL6 worlds then why shouldn't you be able to get a TL15 ship maintained there? In both cases the expertise and the spare parts have to be imported.

(Incidentally, I'm not saying that you can't have a starport where you can get a TL9 starship maintained but not a TL15 one. I think that in such a case it won't have a Class A or Class B rating.)

Motmos (1340) is perhaps the most representative example of my line of though. A B starport with a naval base on an extraimperial subsector. As I see it, this starport is probably totally segregated from the planet population, perhaps even out of the planet (orbital installation or another system body) and the planet is not aware of it (in this specific case, I don't believe to be so, as the planet is open green zone). In any case, it's probably a foreign naval base on a low tech planet.

Motmos is an Imperial client state. That means its starport is either run the Imperium or by an organization acceptable to the Imperium.

I still don't see the relevance, though. If a starport has a Class A or Class B rating, you can get your ship maintained there. How the starport comes by its rating is irrelevant. (Unless you want to argue that it doesn't make sense that you can get an annual maintenance at that starport (something I have a great deal of sympathy for; there are plenty of UWPs that I'd like to change to make more sense), but in that case the logical thing to do is to reduce the starport classification.)


Hans

 

[McPerth]

How exactly do you imagine they manage to get such a rating?

I still don't see the relevance, though. If a starport has a Class A or Class B rating, you can get your ship maintained there. How the starport comes by its rating is irrelevant. (Unless you want to argue that it doesn't make sense that you can get an annual maintenance at that starport (something I have a great deal of sympathy for; there are plenty of UWPs that I'd like to change to make more sense), but in that case the logical thing to do is to reduce the starport classification.)

I was only trying to answer your question about how do I explain them...

One of the discrepances on Traveller's starport system is that, if you can obtain refined fuel there, it's at least class B, and so has yards able to build spaceships, and can do maintenance for any ship, regardless of the true capability given by the TL and population.

More or less the same happens with A class starports. What teoretically makes them A class starports is their capability to build starships. If you have a system with low pop (pop 0-2) and A starport, according the maximum tonnage building capability in TCS, they are nearly useless.

But there's another advantage an A class starport has: it can repair jump drives more efficiently than a B class. So, if the Navy builds a repair base on an otherwise nearly empty system, it will be an A class starport, even if itsbuilding capability is nearly nill (Pixie, Spindward Marches 1903, comes to my mind).

My (personal, as always) sight of Pixie case is that of an advanced base, usually understaffed, but with the capability to become a major repair base if need arises, and, as the people working there would be mostly naval personnel not counted on the planet census, the repair capability would not be related to planet's pop. I won't, though give it building capability according to what I've just said, because I see building capability as more a permanent capability, and so more related to the planetary pop, than this temporary repair capability supplied by the IN.

About allowing starports A and B to make annual maintenance for ships whose TL is higher than that of the system, I agree it should be allowed, but maybe some delays or overcosts may be in order from time to time due to spares shortage, etc... After all any spare not in the starport must be imported, with a minimal delay of 2 weks (quite probably more).